From: rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown)
Subject: Re: Spytrace package for PFE available for beta
Date: 01 Apr 1996 17:53:54 GMT
Message-ID: <RJ.96Apr1115354@eli.wariat.org>
References: <RJ.96Mar28203105@eli.wariat.org> <65m5d-ZM7QB@business.forth-ev.de>
In-reply-to: All@business.forth-ev.de's message of 29 Mar 1996 22:56:00 +0100

>>>>> "Wolfgang" == Wolfgang Allinger <All@business.forth-ev.de>
writes:

    Wolfgang> On 29 Mar 96 in article Wolfgang>
    <RJ.96Mar28203105@eli.wariat.org> <rj@eli.wariat.org> Wolfgang>
    (Robert J. Brown) wrote:

    >> I wrote a spy tracing package for LMI PC/FORTH+ about 5 years
    >> ago, and later proted it to LMI 386-UR/Forth.  Wolfgang>
    snipp---

    Wolfgang> Hallo Bob

    Wolfgang> how can I get the spy tracer for LMI forthes? It sounds
    Wolfgang> very interesting!

I guess I could put them in my anon ftp area.  Which LMI Forth are you
using?

    Wolfgang> Thanks from Wolfgang

    Wolfgang> -- FORTHing @ work Cheap Fast Good ...pick any two of
    Wolfgang> them Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang Allinger Brander Weg 6
    Wolfgang> Voice/FAX [+49] [0] 212 / 66 8 11 D-42699 SOLINGEN
    Wolfgang> eMail: all@business.forth-ev.de GERMANY ## CrossPoint
    Wolfgang> v3.02 R ##
--
-----------  "...  And the men went up and viewed Ai."  [Jos 7:2]  -----------
Robert Jay Brown III  rj@eli.wariat.org  http://eli.wariat.org  1 847 705-0370
Elijah Laboratories Inc;  759 Independence Drive;  Suite 5;  Palatine IL 60074
-----  M o d e l i n g   t h e   M e t h o d s   o f   t h e   M i n d  ------

From: vern_tallman@usa.pipeline.com(Vernon M. Tallman)
Subject: Re: Wanted hd64180/z80 Forth
Date: 2 Apr 1996 20:26:11 GMT
Message-ID: <4js2h3$njt@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>
References: <4jpvbd$1ko@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>
X-PipeUser: vern_tallman
X-PipeHub: usa.pipeline.com
X-PipeGCOS: (Vernon M. Tallman)

 
>On Mar 28, 1996 14:24:21 in article <Wanted hd64180/z80 Forth>, 
>'A.M.MacArthur. <100536.1560@CompuServe.COM>' wrote:  
> 
> 
>Can anybody recommend where a Forth Shareware Source listing for   
>the 64180/Z80 processor can be downloaded ?  
>..<snip>...  
> 
 
The files I previously mentioned are  
   hfz80v096.txt 
   hfz80v096.zip 
 
The Taygeta site has been unavailable .. so they can also be found at the 
mirror site: 
 
  ftp.uni-bremen.de      ...   in directory/file: 
  /pub/languages/programming/forth/Taygeta-Archive/Reviewed/hfz80v96.txt 
  /pub/languages/programming/forth/Taygeta-Archive/Reviewed/hfz80v96.zip

From: rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown)
Subject: Re: LaTeX package to typeset Forth
Date: 01 Apr 1996 17:58:51 GMT
Message-ID: <RJ.96Apr1115851@eli.wariat.org>
References: <Dp661G.DM3@hkuxb.hku.hk>
In-reply-to: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk's message of Mon, 1 Apr 1996 06:00:52 GMT

>>>>> "Zsoter" == Zsoter Andras <h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk> writes:

    Zsoter>  Does any have or does anybody know about a LaTeX package
    Zsoter> (.sty or the like) to typeset Forth programs?

    Zsoter> If you answer this question please send a cc to my private
    Zsoter> address because my news reader still keeps on loosing some
    Zsoter> messages. :-((

    Zsoter> Andras

You could look at the "spitery web" literate programming toolkit.  It
usually comes with a complete TeX distribution as part of the contrib
stuff.  This toolkit makes it fairly easy to write typesetters for any
programming language.  I do not think there is a Forth variant yet,
but it shouldn't be too difficult to write.
--
-----------  "...  And the men went up and viewed Ai."  [Jos 7:2]  -----------
Robert Jay Brown III  rj@eli.wariat.org  http://eli.wariat.org  1 847 705-0370
Elijah Laboratories Inc;  759 Independence Drive;  Suite 5;  Palatine IL 60074
-----  M o d e l i n g   t h e   M e t h o d s   o f   t h e   M i n d  ------

From: mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
Subject: Base64 protocol
Date: 2 Apr 1996 23:19:34 +0200
Message-ID: <4js5l6$mdt@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>

Thanks everybody, for the useful suggestions concerning the base64 mystery.
Embarassingly, the C-sourcecode for MIME64 was sitting on a Simtel CDROM I 
bought a few months back. A clear case of information overload. However, the 
code I will present is a minor variation on Skip Carter's implementation of 
UUENCODE and UUDECODE (although he may not recognize it himself).

There are some iForthisms in the listing appended to this article but they 
shouldn't be too distractening. Numbers starting with '#' are in decimal, 
'$' means hex, '%' means binary. Instead of [CHAR] a   you may write   'a' . 
The code uses iForths S-stack, just replace >S S S> with >R R@ R> . 
The word ?FILE ( ior -- )  handles errors after a file operation: 
: ?FILE ( ior -- ) ABORT" file error" ;

The code will only work for 32-bit Forths that are not case-sensitive. A
second iteration over the code might remove the limitations I now mention
in the DOC.

-marcel

--

(*
 * LANGUAGE    : ANS Forth
 * PROJECT     : Forth Environments
 * DESCRIPTION : Protocol converter
 * CATEGORY    : Tools
 * AUTHOR      : Marcel Hendrix 
 * LAST CHANGE : April 1, 1996, Marcel Hendrix 
 * LAST CHANGE : March 26, 1996, Marcel Hendrix 
 *)

        NEEDS -miscutil

        REVISION -64decode "ÄÄÄ Base64 decoder      Version 0.00 ÄÄÄ"

DOC
(*
 This program decodes base64 encoded files.
 It expects to read a text file valid for the host OS (that is: cr+lf
 under DOS, lf for UNIX). There should be 4*n bytes per line read, which
 translates to 3*n bytes in the output file.
 The text starts with:

	Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII <newline>
	Content-transfer-encoding: base64<newline>
	<newline>

 The encode algorithm takes 3 bytes and translates these to four 6-bit  
 ASCII characters, using the following logic:

	get a b c,   put d e f g
	
		a		 b		    c
	a0a1a2a3a4a5a6a7  b0b1b2b3b4b5b6b7  c0c1c2c3c4c5c6c7  
	  	
	a2a3a4a5a6a7  b4b5b6b7a0a1  c6c7b0b1b2b3 c0c1c2c3c4c5  
	     d'	 	   e'		 f'	      g' 	

 The primed characters' "value" lies between 0 and 63. This is used as an index
 into a table of 64 "items", where "item" is chosen to be a non-special
 printable character for the transmission channel between sender and
 receiver (This is uudecode/uuencode with an extra indirection added).
 In this way we can transport the file to any computer, across any medium, 
 and unpack it there to exactly the same bits as we started with.
 This file only works when the used table contained US-ASCII in the following 
 format: [A-Z][a-z][0-9]+/ .

 BUG (?)
 -------
 1. The scanning for the base64 content in the input file may fail because of
 case-sensitivity problems.
 2. When the last characters in the inputfile are NOT valid, the outputfile 
 will have null characters just before EOF.
 3. The decoder loop can be done much simpler, there are too many shifts.
 See also 64encode.frt .
*)
ENDDOC


0 VALUE ihandle
0 VALUE ohandle
0 VALUE ^out

CREATE outbuf	0 C, #127 ALLOT

: >outp		outbuf ^out + C!  		\ <char> --- <>
		1 +TO ^out ;

\ Hard coded, US-ASCII expected.
: NEXT@		C@+ 				\ <addr> --- <addr'> <byte>
		DUP 'A' 'Z' 1+ WITHIN IF 'A' -       exit ENDIF
		DUP 'a' 'z' 1+ WITHIN IF 'a' - #26 + exit ENDIF
		DUP '0' '9' 1+ WITHIN IF '0' - #52 + exit ENDIF
		DUP '+' = IF drop #62 exit ENDIF 
		'/' = IF #63 
		    ELSE 0 ( may happen at or just before EOF)
		   ENDIF ;

: DECODE-LINE	DUP 0= IF EXIT ENDIF		\ <addr> <count> --- <a> <u>
		CLEAR ^out  
		4 /MOD SWAP >S
		0 ?DO 
		     NEXT@ 2 LSHIFT >S			\ .,.,a2a3a4a5a6a7
		     NEXT@ DUP 4 RSHIFT S> OR >outp	\ a0a1.,.,.,.,.,.,
		               4 LSHIFT >S		\ .,.,.,.,b4b5b6b7
		     NEXT@ DUP 2 RSHIFT S> OR >outp	\ b0b1b2b3.,.,.,.,
			       6 LSHIFT >S   		\ .,.,.,.,.,.,c6c7
		     NEXT@ S> OR >outp			\ c0c1c2c3c4c5.,.,
		LOOP 
		S> ( read 0, 1, 2 or 3 slack bytes)
		CASE 
		  2 OF NEXT@ 2 LSHIFT >S NEXT@ NIP 4 RSHIFT S> OR >outp ENDOF
		  3 OF NEXT@ 2 LSHIFT >S NEXT@ DUP 4 RSHIFT  
		       S> OR >outp 6 LSHIFT SWAP NEXT@ NIP OR >outp 	ENDOF
		       NIP 
		ENDCASE
		outbuf ^out ;

: GET-IFN	BL WORD COUNT 
		2DUP CR ." Reading: " TYPE  
		R/O BIN OPEN-FILE 
		?FILE TO ihandle ;

: GET-OFN	BL WORD COUNT 
		2DUP ." , creating: " TYPE
		W/O BIN CREATE-FILE 
		   IF DROP ihandle CLOSE-FILE 
		      1 ABORT" couldn't open output file" 
		ENDIF TO ohandle ;

: FIND-BEGIN	BEGIN 	
		   PAD #80 ihandle READ-LINE
		   SWAP 0= OR 
		      IF ohandle CLOSE-FILE DROP
			 ihandle CLOSE-FILE DROP 
			 1 ABORT" invalid file"
		   ENDIF
		   PAD SWAP #16 MIN S" Content-transfer" COMPARE 0=
		UNTIL 
		PAD #80 ihandle READ-LINE 3DROP ;

: (64DECODE)	BEGIN  PAD #80 ihandle READ-LINE ?FILE
		WHILE  PAD SWAP DECODE-LINE ohandle WRITE-FILE ?FILE
		REPEAT DROP ;

: 64DECODE	GET-IFN  GET-OFN  FIND-BEGIN
		['] (64DECODE) CATCH
	 	  ohandle CLOSE-FILE IF CR ." Error closing output" ENDIF
		  ihandle CLOSE-FILE IF CR ." Error closing input"  ENDIF
		?DUP IF THROW ENDIF ;

: .ABOUT	CR ." 64DECODE - Decode binary files" 
		CR ." usage:  64DECODE infilename outfilename" ;

                .ABOUT

From: mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
Subject: Base64 protocol
Date: 2 Apr 1996 23:20:35 +0200
Message-ID: <4js5n3$mj1@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>

This is a companion to the base64 decoder I posted earlier.

There are more iForthisms now than for the decoder. I treat the input 
file as a byte stream and use the iForth streams.frt package to handle it 
(OPEN-FILES CLOSE-FILES PUTCH GETCH EOF).

TEXT% is used to compile a text without a preceding count. $CR is a 
counted string that returns the OS-specific end-of-line sequence (^M^J for
MS-DOS, ^J for Linux).

The code will only work for 32-bit Forths that are not case-sensitive. 
There may be a few spurious NULLs at the end of the output file.

-marcel

--
(*
 * LANGUAGE    : ANS Forth
 * PROJECT     : Forth Environments
 * DESCRIPTION : Protocol converter
 * CATEGORY    : Tools
 * AUTHOR      : Marcel Hendrix 
 * LAST CHANGE : March 26, 1996, Marcel Hendrix 
 *)

        NEEDS -miscutil
	NEEDS -streams

        REVISION -64encode "ÄÄÄ Base64 encode       Version 0.00 ÄÄÄ"

DOC
(*
 This program decodes base64 encoded files.
 It expects to read a text file valid for the host OS (that is: cr+lf
 under DOS, lf for UNIX). There should be 4*n bytes per line read, which
 translates to 3*n bytes in the output file.
 The text starts with:

	Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII <newline>
	Content-transfer-encoding: base64<newline>
	<newline>

 The encode algorithm takes 3 bytes and translates these to four 6-bit  
 ASCII characters, using the following logic:

	get a b c,   put d e f g
	
		a		 b		    c
	a0a1a2a3a4a5a6a7  b0b1b2b3b4b5b6b7  c0c1c2c3c4c5c6c7  
	  	
	a2a3a4a5a6a7  b4b5b6b7a0a1  c6c7b0b1b2b3 c0c1c2c3c4c5  
	     d'	 	   e'		 f'	      g' 	

 The primed characters lie between 0 and 63. This is used as an index
 into a table of 64 "items", where "item" is chosen to be a non-special
 printable character for the transmission channel between sender and
 receiver (This is uudecode with an extra indirection added).
 In this way we can transport the file to any computer, across any medium, 
 and unpack it there to exactly the same bits as we started with.
 This file only supports an indirection trough US-ASCII.
*)
ENDDOC


CREATE chartable PRIVATE
       TEXT% ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz0123456789+/%

: lookup ( char -- n )
	$3F AND  chartable +  C@ ; 

\ first byte input is LSB. Last byte input is MSB.
: get-3bytes? ( -- n count )
	getch DUP EOF = IF drop 0           0 exit ENDIF
	getch DUP EOF = IF drop #16 LSHIFT  1 exit ENDIF
	SWAP 8 LSHIFT OR
	getch DUP EOF = IF drop   8 LSHIFT  2 exit ENDIF 
	SWAP 8 LSHIFT OR  3 ; 

\ process three characters = 3 * 8 bits = 24 bits = 4 * 6 bits.
: encode ( n1 -- n2 )
	0 LOCAL result
	4 0 DO  DUP lookup 
		result 8 LSHIFT OR TO result
		6 RSHIFT
	  LOOP
	drop  result ; 

: put-4bytes ( n -- )
\	4 0 DO  8 ROL dup putch  LOOP drop ; 
	4 0 DO  dup putch 8 RSHIFT LOOP drop ; 

: WRITE-EOL ( -- )
	$CR COUNT 0 ?DO c@+ PUTCH LOOP drop ; 

: WRITE$ ( c-addr u -- )
	0 ?DO c@+ putch LOOP drop WRITE-EOL ; 

: 64ENCODE ( "infile" "outfile" -- )
	0 LOCAL cnt
	OPEN-FILES
	S" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII" write$
	S" Content-transfer-encoding: base64" write$ write-eol
	BEGIN  get-3bytes? 
	WHILE  encode put-4bytes  
	       4 +TO cnt  cnt #60 >= IF clear cnt WRITE-EOL ENDIF
	REPEAT drop 
	WRITE-EOL
	CLOSE-FILES ;

: .ABOUT CR ." Try: 64ENCODE <infile> <outfile>" ;

         .ABOUT 

From: Brad Rodriguez <bj@headwaters.com>
Subject: Re: Multitasking
Date: 2 Apr 1996 11:49:06 GMT
Message-ID: <4jr47i$jut@news.bellglobal.com>
References: <3135fbe6.1340938@news.en.com> <4h6ohl$jlu@church.dcss.McMaster.CA> <315c61c9.367942@news.en.com> <4jjb9s$ogo@news.bellglobal.com> <4joa41$4ml@gatekeeper.atml.co.uk> <315FF43E.3A40@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit)

Thanks, guys.  I'm not up to speed when I post these at 6 am. :-)

-- 
Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
!!! 1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario !!!
Discount ends April 1st!  http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html



From: Brad Rodriguez <bj@headwaters.com>
Subject: Re: Multithreading in Forth
Date: 2 Apr 1996 11:53:49 GMT
Message-ID: <4jr4gd$jut@news.bellglobal.com>
References: <4jmqnr$1vg@whidbey.whidbey.com> <4jnfrc$c9s@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <4jp1m4$132@news.wco.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit)

bnilsen@wco.com (Byron Nilsen) wrote:
>This exercise replaced three $1200 PLC's (ladder-logic controllers)
>in the original design (which never had a prayer!) with two $125
>embedded micro's.  I've been meaning to write about it for *Forth
>Dimensions* whenever I can get around to it.

Niiiiice.  Please do write this up for FD!

-- 
Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
!!! 1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario !!!
Discount ends April 1st!  http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html



From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94)
Subject: CRC implementation
Date: 3 Apr 1996 04:50:26 GMT
Message-ID: <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>

Homework question!

I'm a bit stumped on how to implement a CRC in forth... I'd like to have an
address & count on the stack, and get the same, with a n-degree CRC 
appended to it.  So far I have only been able to do it as one character, 
mathematically.  Unfortunately, this doesn't give me a true modulo-2 
answer; I have to shift twice as much left to keep the borrows from 
wiping the right bit of my character.  I guess what I'm looking for is 
something that will simulate/operate as a shift/xor circuit.  How do I treat
chars as bits?

I could loop 8 times, using a shifted mask to AND the bit, and then use 
this in my shift/XOR circuit...? I've twisted my mind around this, but I 
can't seem to get a working model.

I even resorted to C ;>

Eventually this is supposed to be used inside a sliding-windows style 
communications program...

Any ideas/pointers (an example in ANY language would help) ?
thanks

Jon D. Verne <jverne@acs.ryerson.ca>

From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras)
Subject: Re: Forth on Unix or X?
Message-ID: <Dp9unr.ts@hkuxb.hku.hk>
References: <4jro3f$62j@church.dcss.McMaster.CA>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 05:45:26 GMT

Brad Rodriguez (bradford@maccs.mcmaster.ca) wrote:
>In article <315a4458.3116496@sunss102.cc.cycu.edu.tw>,
>Lurng <lurng@vhdl.cycu.edu.tw> wrote:
>>Are there any Forth system on Unix or X?
>
>Unix: yes, several.  pfe, Atlast, ThisForth, and others that I can't
>remember off the top of my head (not to worry, someone else will 
>surely post the complete list).

Gforth andmy doof (still in an infantile stage).
Just take a look at ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth and its subdirectories.

For X I also don't know about any Forth with built-in X support but
some of them have shared library support so adding support for X
should be easy.

Andras


From: wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
Subject: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-"
Message-ID: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:43:35 GMT


SHOW AND TELL, STRAIGHT AND NARROW, DON'T MUMBLE AND DON'T SHOUT.

Doing Spring Housecleaning I came across these guide-lines that I
worked out in the 80s.

Except for Rules 2 and 3 they apply to all programming languages.

1.  SHOW.   Typographical structure should manifest logical structure.

This is often not mentioned, perhaps because it's taken as given
nowadays.  How it is done is up to the programmer.  Be
consistent within a project.

2.  TELL.   There should never be any question as to what's on the stack.

This is more important than the first rule.

Unless you know what's on the stack you can't understand what
Forth code is doing.

3.  STRAIGHT.   Minimize changing the order and nature of what's on the stack.

Every time you change the stack the reader will have to change
mind-set, and that will slow down comprehension.  Misjudging
what's on the stack is fatal.

This is not difficult -- words tend to have stack persistence.

4.  NARROW.   "Everything worth saying about anything worth saying
    something about must be expressed in six or fewer pieces."

Horizontally this means number of words on a line; vertically
this means structures.  It also applies to the number of
paragraphs and sections of the documentation.  (I have been
excluding stack comments from the count.)

A `dispatch function' is the exception.

5.  DON'T MUMBLE.   Names and comments should be in proper English.

Avoid special characters.  Your code should be able to pass a
spelling checker.  Comments should be grammatically correct.  Be
consistent with the use of names and abbreviations.  Use
appropriate names.

Note: Some special characters have a commonly recognized meaning.
`>' for transformation.   Suffix `?' to show that the word is an
adjective, not a noun.  [square-brackets] for an immediate word.
With the liberation from the tyranny of "length and first three
characters unique" special characters are no longer necessary to
distinguish closely related words.

Perhaps we should be phasing WIDGET? and >WIDGET to IS-WIDGET
and TO-WIDGET.

6.  DON'T SHOUT.    Avoid using all uppercase.

Don't whisper either.

And don't have words which must be distingushed by letter-case.
(Don't yodel?)
--
Procedamus in pace.    Wil Baden   Costa Mesa, California

From: aph@atml.co.uk (Andrew Haley)
Subject: Re: Multitasking
Date: 3 Apr 1996 09:38:57 GMT
Message-ID: <4jtgvh$qgi@gatekeeper.atml.co.uk>
References: <3135fbe6.1340938@news.en.com> <4h6ohl$jlu@church.dcss.McMaster.CA> <315c61c9.367942@news.en.com> <4jjb9s$ogo@news.bellglobal.com> <4joa41$4ml@gatekeeper.atml.co.uk> <315FF43E.3A40@netcom.com>

Andrew McKewan (mckewan@netcom.com) wrote:
: Andrew Haley wrote:
: > 
: > Brad Rodriguez (bj@headwaters.com) wrote:

[ stuff ]

: > Are you sure that you need a special < operator?  :
: > 
: > : MS ( n -)   COUNTER +  BEGIN  PAUSE  DUP COUNTER - 0< UNTIL  DROP ;

: Exactly.  " - 0< " is the special < operator that Brad mentioned.  

So he doesn't need a special operator then, does he?  If the "circular
relational" can be implemented with a couple of pre-existing Forth
primitives there's no need to have any more operators.  It's a very
Forth solution to the problem: different applications may need
different behaviours, and we may use either "- 0<" (circular) or "<"
(linear) as needed.

Incidentally, I was very peeved when FORTH, Inc changed the behaviour
of "<" and broke a number of my applications: but I just changed the
source code of the nucleus right back again.  Remember, people: always
demand source from your vendor!

Cheers, Andrew.

P.S.  Yes, I know that I could have _redefined_ "<".

From: Stephen Pelc <sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Forth From C
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 96 08:25:51 GMT
Message-ID: <828519951snz@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
References: <315FE6BC.167EB0E7@paisley.ac.uk>
Reply-To: sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-Mail2News-Path: mpeltd.demon.co.uk

In article <315FE6BC.167EB0E7@paisley.ac.uk>
           com40005@paisley.ac.uk "Robert M Boyce" writes:
> I know this has probably been done a thousand times before, but what is 
> the best way to call Forth from C.
> 
> In particular suppose an event loop is running, and one wishes this
> event to loop to start up the Forth interpreter, Process some command
> and then return to the C event loop.  This event loop has been started
> from Forth and is a child process of the Forth System.
> 
> I am using ProForth For Windows, and the event loop is the tk_mainloop
> from the Tk toolkit. If that's any help/
Define the Forth word as a callback. You may need to fax MPE technical
support for full details, depending on the version you have. All the
code you need is contained in the file SOURCE\FORTH\WINDOWS.FTH.

A callback performs all the stack allocation, parameter transfer, and
return handling automatically. This is the same mechanism used to handle
all ProForth's winprocs.

--
Stephen Pelc, sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 1703 631441, fax: +44 1703 339691

From: regnirps@aol.com (Regnirps)
Subject: Win32Forth question
Date: 3 Apr 1996 07:02:44 -0500
Message-ID: <4jtpd4$drd@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: regnirps@aol.com (Regnirps)

I can't find much documentation, so can anybody tell me how to read/write
I/O space?

Charlie Springer

From: bradford@maccs.mcmaster.ca (Brad Rodriguez)
Subject: Re: Multithreading in Forth
Date: 3 Apr 1996 12:16:21 GMT
Message-ID: <4jtq6l$qsk@church.dcss.McMaster.CA>
References: <4jmqnr$1vg@whidbey.whidbey.com>

In article <4jmqnr$1vg@whidbey.whidbey.com>,
Douglas Beattie Jr. <beattidp@svc.ctc.edu> wrote:
>In multithreaded program, execution of separate tasks within the 
>program occurs concurrently, thereby completing the task sooner.
>Doesn't multithreading require special construction of the program?
>
>Is FORTH suited to multithreading?
>
>Would each thread require its own stacks?

Well, if I understand the jargon du jour of the computer science
fraternity, most Forths actually do multithreading and not multitasking.
E.g., from Tanenbaum's _Distributed Operating Systems_:

"In most traditional operating systems, each process [task] has
an address space and a single thread of control..."

"In many respects, threads are like mini-processes.  Each thread
runs strictly sequentially and has its own program counter and
stack..."

"All threads have exactly the same address space, which
means that they also share the same global variables... There is
no protection between threads because (1) it is impossible, and
(2) it should not be necessary... In addition to sharing an address
space, all the threads share the same set of open files, child
processes, timers, and signals, etc...."

Sounds like most Forth multitaskers to me. :-)

Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario 
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html


From: bradford@maccs.mcmaster.ca (Brad Rodriguez)
Subject: Re: Multitasking
Date: 3 Apr 1996 12:29:04 GMT
Message-ID: <4jtqug$qut@church.dcss.McMaster.CA>
References: <3135fbe6.1340938@news.en.com> <4h6ohl$jlu@church.dcss.McMaster.CA> <315c61c9.367942@news.en.com> <4jjb9s$ogo@news.bellglobal.com>

Now, about message passing... the simplest system would be to give
each task a mailbox (eg. a user variable).  The mailbox can hold 0
for 'empty', or a nonzero value which is a message.  Any task can
write to the mailbox as long as it is empty.  This "test-and-store"
must be an atomic (indivisible) operator, which is easy to do in
a cooperative multitasker.  If a task wants to write to a nonempty
mailbox, it must wait until the mailbox becomes empty.

A small refinement would also store the task id of the sending task,
so the recipient would know who sent the message.

A further refinement would allow a queue of messages, so that the
sending task could leave a message even when the recipient isn't 
ready for it.  This could be a fixed-size queue (eg. a circular
buffer), or a variable-size queue (eg. linked list).  Linked lists
_may_ get you into the hairy world of dynamic memory allocation.

These all assume that the "receive" operator accepts the first
message from any sender.  If you also need an operator to receive
the first message from a specified sender, it gets more complicated.
You could have multiple mailboxes (one for each possible sender),
multiple queues, or a single queue which can be searched (in which
case the queue must contain both the message and the sender's id).

I've assumed short & fixed-size messages here; handling long or
variable length messages is -- as the profs say -- an exercise for
the student. :-)

Note from personal experience -- it's surprising how well simple
mailboxes work, if you're not trying to write a totally-general
application (like a multiuser operating system).

Cheers,

Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario 
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html


From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Readable Forth
Date: 3 Apr 1996 14:14:48 GMT
Message-ID: <4ju14o$no6@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>

I once wrote:

> I have seen (ANS Forth only):
>
> : STAR   42 EMIT ;
>
> : STAR   ." *" ;
>
> : STAR   [CHAR] * EMIT ;
>

I hadn't seen:

: .CHAR  ( '<spaces>name' -- )  
   POSTPONE [CHAR]  POSTPONE EMIT ; IMMEDIATE
: STAR  ( -- )  .CHAR * ;


-
  LEO WONG  MABS85B@prodigy.com
  New York State Department of Civil Service
  Albany, NY  12239


From: jvn@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Julian V. Noble)
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: faraday.clas.virginia.edu
Message-ID: <DpALHM.M0p@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <STEPHENB.96Mar29092754@sorrol.harlqn.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:24:57 GMT

stephenb@harlequin.co.uk  writes:
> In article <4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) writes:
>    Either way, Forth is a good way to implement AI, especially the
>    numeric-intensive kinds of AI.  It is a *lot* easier to drive arithmetic
>    elements like floating point coprocessors at full speed in Forth than
>    it is in LISP.
> 
> Why?

Although I am not Borasky (my mother assures me this is so), I will respond:

Basically, most Forths, by incorporating assemblers for the machine language
of the host, make direct access to adjunct machinery easier than in
other languages I have used. For one thing, if one defines a new primitive
such as S>F or D>F  (Standard fp words that move single-or double-length
integers to the top of the floating point stack which, in a system with
a coprocessor, should be independent of the parameter stack and have
its TOS cached in a co-processor register--doesn't everybody do it
that way? :-) one can test it instantly. No separate assembling or linking
steps are necessary. 

I found it much easier to drive a coprocessor with Forth than with other
languages. Moreover, if ultimate speed is required, peephole optimization
allows you to employ idiosyncrasies of the cpu/co-processor to get the
best possible performance. I discuss this in my book.

The problems with using an optimizing compiler for such chores are
twofold: first, they generally do not optimize as well as a clever
programmer who understands the system; and second, they tend to
optimize everything, thereby generating a much bigger machine code
image. For many purposes it is adequate to optimize only tiny
parts of the program.

But Stephen Bevan certainly knows all these things at least as
well as I do--he was doubtless asking "Why" rhetorically, for the
benefit of new readers of this newsgroup, in hopes that someone
like myself would rise to the didactic challenge.


-- 
Julian V. Noble
jvn@virginia.edu


From: jvn@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Julian V. Noble)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: faraday.clas.virginia.edu
Message-ID: <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:04:23 GMT

Andrew M Gale  writes:
> I have a Jupiter Ace, but it's not for sale I'm afraid!
> However, if anyone is keen to put together an emulator, then
> I could probably put the ROM images somewhere.
> 
> Actually, an emulator shouldn't be tricky - the ACE has a
> very simple text display.
> 
> -Andy

As one of the early purchasers of a Jupiter Ace, and --to my knowledge--
the only one who ever designed a math coprocessor (AMD 9511) add-on board
for same, let me beg anyone who wants to emulate the Ace's Forth-in-ROM
NOT to follow the Jupiter Cantabs floating point conventions.

The Ace floating point arithmetic used a horrible bastardized BCD
that was incompatible with any standard (i.e. 32-bit IEEE) convention.
This made interfacing to the co-processor board baroque, to say the
least...

Worse, the Ace used a co-mingled floating point/parameter stack. As I
have pointed out here and elsewhere, it is _possible_ to conduct an fp
calculation with a co-mingled stack, but who would want to?

Finally, the Ace Forth did not have a floating point function library,
so its fp arithmetic was nearly useless for any practical purpose. The
Timex/Sinclair ZX81 (or Z1000) managed to include trig, log and exponential
functions (also square root, I think) in an 8K ROM Basic, so leaving these
out of the Ace was a poor decision--especially since, as I understand it,
the Ace's designers were the same people who did the ZX81's ROM Basic.
After all, if it can be done with an interpretive Basic, Forth should
use _less_ memory, right?

If anyone is interested in the co-processor board, I can post its
schematic on taygeta, together with the sad story of its design and
the demise of the Jupiter Ace. It appeared in Larry Forsley's mag,
Definitions last year some time.

 
-- 
Julian V. Noble
jvn@virginia.edu

From: barrym@starbase.neosoft.com (barrym)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: 3 Apr 1996 18:28:34 GMT
Message-ID: <4jug0i$sgp@uuneo.neosoft.com>
References: <4j39v1$1sc@news.moose.co.uk> <4j9ja7$tqn@trog.dra.hmg.gb>

Gary Payne (gdpayne@dra.hmg.gb) wrote:
: James@moose.co.uk wrote:

: >Remember this Forth-using blast from the past... I want to buy one or
: >find an EMULATOR for the PC or Amiga...

: Your not the only one, I'd love to have a Jupiter Ace, having written
: a Reverse Polish Parser. If anyone has one, please let me know via
: Email.

: Gary.

You probably already know this but just in case you dont, the HP 48 calculator
is a RPN calculator with an amazingly large forth-like vocabulary.  It's not
forth, but it has very much the flavor of forth.

Barry


From: pmccarth@rpc.unb.ca (Patrick McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Anyone using FORTH INC chipFORTH ?
Date: 3 Apr 1996 16:52:03 GMT
Message-ID: <4juabj$6q8@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <4jm9c1$h5l@netnews.hinet.net>
Keywords: chipFORTH

In article <4jm9c1$h5l@netnews.hinet.net>,
   awtech@ms4.hinet.net (awtech) wrote:
>
>I am considering buying the FORTH INC chipFORTH 80188/186
>Development Suite and would like to here any comments or gripes you may
>have.  The package cost about $1995 and you could save me some pain if
>you know that I should get someting else for my AMD E88 work.
>I am not the FORTH expert, and we do not have much FORTH people in TAIWAN.
>Is chipFORTH easy to build and have enougth documents for FORTH begineer ?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Kuo, Wu Shun ,Hardware Engineer,All-Win Tech  Incorporated (Taiwan),
>FAX: 886-2-2989467                   awtech@ms4.hinet.net.tw
>
We have used chipForths for 6811, 8051, 6816, and TMS320C31  but not the 
80188/186 flavour. Right know I am actively using the 6811 and TMS320C31 
versions on projects. chipForths are all similar in that they are built upon a 
standard polyForth base. Only the chip specific parts change.

We're in New Brunswick, Canada which is not exactly a hotbed of Forth activity 
either. Especially back about 10 years ago, when I got our first polyForth, I 
was not a very experienced Forth user either. Forth Inc. is a professional 
company selling (and using) professional products. Their on screen and paper 
documentation is ok and they have effective phone support. 

Gripes? None in particular. In my case I grumble every time I buy another 
chipForth version since it means I get yet another copy of polyForth along 
with the chip-specific software.  However, it's still well worth it, 
especially since it means the development environment is always the same.

One thing to be aware of is that chipForth is more complex than a regular 
Forth (including polyForth). Basically the heads are kept on the host while 
the code being run is on the target 80188/186 board. But you can define and 
run words that run on the host too. Vocabularies are used to keep things 
straight but it's something to get used to.

In your situaution I recommend getting a commercial software package that ius 
supported by the vendor. I am aware of only one other vendor that may also 
have a product that meets these requirements, MPE with their Umbilical Forth. 
 I don't know of they make a version for the 80188/186.

Ray St-Laurent
rstlaure@rpc.unb.ca

(I'm using someone else's account because I inadvertantly erased the original 
posting from mine)



From: bnilsen@wco.com (Byron Nilsen)
Subject: Re: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-"
Date: 3 Apr 1996 19:02:44 GMT
Message-ID: <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com>

W.Baden (wilbaden@netcom.com) wrote:
: 
: SHOW AND TELL, STRAIGHT AND NARROW, DON'T MUMBLE AND DON'T SHOUT.
: [clip]
: Procedamus in pace.    Wil Baden   Costa Mesa, California
-- 
Very worthy points made in the above essay.  Here's my 2 centsworth:
--
constant   THIS WRITERS FRUSTRATION WITH...
variable   CONSISTENCY AND MAINTAINABILITY OF SOURCE CODE...so...
create     AN EPISTLE TO THE COMP.LANG.FORTHIANS

: "GOOD-CODE"  ( - or better ) \ Wil Baden's latest essay makes lots of sense!
  Executable code should be confined   \ Leaving lots of room here for remarks
  to the left side of the page.        \ that help explain the proceedings,
  So the reader knows what (and where) \ so someone other than the programmer
  the "important" stuff always is.     \ can at least try to understand it.
;
: DEFINITIONS  ( like this - ) \ Should be thought of as "paragraphs"!
  Paragraphs have CAPITALIZED heads.   \ As we all learned in grammar school.
  This was called "rubrication"        \ This emphasizes the beginning of
  by ancient bible-scripting monks.    \ a singular literary construction.
;
: TEXT-BODY    ( as shown - )  \ Should be lower (or mixed) case text!
  We no longer compose programs on     \ Lower case text is "friendlier" to
  punch-cards or teletype machines.    \ the readers eye than ALL-CAPITALS.
  Or, for that matter - in "blocks".   \ "With freedom comes responsibility!"
;
: ALIGNMENT    ( of text - )   \ Too often ignored (sad hangover from blocks)
  Telephone book "white pages" are not \ Those relentlessly tidy vertically-
  very interesting, but they do yield  \ aligned columns are damn boring, but
  necessary information efficiently.   \ familiar, consistant, and reliable!
;
: STACK-NOTES  ( here's one )  \ Need to be included with every definition!
  Even if it's "nothing-in nothing-out \ Visual consistency as an aid to
  the stack-note preserves the visual  \ reading comprehension, can't be
  consistency of the "paragraph".      \ overemphasized!
;
: SOURCE-CODE  ( even Forth )  \ Should be informative, not exciting!
  Once it's written and debugged,      \ *Maintainability* is the best
  I can't imagine anything more boring \ legacy a "legitimate" programmer
  than my own code. - Well, yes I can: \ can create.  Consistent presentation
  Someone elses!                       \ (literally) helps make it happen!
;
  ...end-edit compile curse re-edit recompile link load run curse re-edit...

|--|====== Byron Nilsen ======|--|* Analog and Digital Circuit Design *|--|
|\/|  * R. W. LABORATORIES *  |\/|* Embedded Processor Systems        *|\/|
|/\|Industrial Instrumentation|/\|* Forth Language Applications       *|/\|
|--|====== And Controls ======|--|(finger bnilsen@wco.com  for PGP key)|--|

Thought for the day:  "I have no respect for a man who can think of only one
way to spell a word."   <Andrew Jackson>



From: dpsm@en.com (Dale P. Smith)
Subject: Re: LaTeX package to typeset Forth
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 20:43:51 GMT
Message-ID: <3162e1d7.11583627@news.en.com>
References: <Dp661G.DM3@hkuxb.hku.hk> <RJ.96Apr1115851@eli.wariat.org>

rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown) wrote:

>>>>>> "Zsoter" == Zsoter Andras <h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk> writes:
>
>    Zsoter>  Does any have or does anybody know about a LaTeX package
>    Zsoter> (.sty or the like) to typeset Forth programs?
>
>You could look at the "spitery web" literate programming toolkit.  It
>usually comes with a complete TeX distribution as part of the contrib
>stuff.  This toolkit makes it fairly easy to write typesetters for any
>programming language.  I do not think there is a Forth variant yet,
>but it shouldn't be too difficult to write.

I have been playing around with noweb for a little bit.  It doesn't do
any pretty printing of code, which is probly best for Forth because
you create your own custom language to fit your problem.

>-----------  "...  And the men went up and viewed Ai."  [Jos 7:2]  -----------
>Robert Jay Brown III  rj@eli.wariat.org  http://eli.wariat.org  1 847 705-0370
>Elijah Laboratories Inc;  759 Independence Drive;  Suite 5;  Palatine IL 60074

Say Hi to Zbig!


Dale
Dale P. Smith
dpsm@en.com        home
dpsm@lubrizol.com  work

From: gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk (Gordon Charlton)
Subject: Re: CRC implementation
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 01:41:21 +0100
Message-ID: <AD88D94196689615E@charlton.demon.co.uk>
References: <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: charlton.demon.co.uk

In article <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) wrote:

}Homework question!

}I'm a bit stumped on how to implement a CRC in forth... 
}Any ideas/pointers (an example in ANY language would help) ?
}thanks

}Jon D. Verne <jverne@acs.ryerson.ca>

There is some CRC code in the Forth Scientific Library. (I should know ;-)


Gordon...



From: Andrew McKewan <mckewan@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Win32Forth question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <316297A7.5452@netcom.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <4jtpd4$drd@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:22:15 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I)

Regnirps wrote:
> 
> I can't find much documentation, so can anybody tell me how to read/write
> I/O space?
> 
> Charlie Springer

You're not going to like this one:  Write a device driver.

In Win32, all user-mode applications run in protected mode and the operating 
system will not allow access to physical memory, I/O, interrupts and other 
"privileged" instructions.

There is a toolkit called "WinRT" from Blue Water Systems that allows I/O, 
memory and interrupts from any Win32 program, but there is some runtime 
overhead (I haven't used it).  http://www.bluewatersystems.com/

I haven't written a VXD (Windows 95 device driver) but an NT driver for simple 
port I/O (pc@, pc!) would be fairly simple (starting from one of Microsoft's 
examples), but they get very complicated when handling interrupts, DMA, etc. 
You will need the DDK which is part of the MSDN subscription ($500/yr) and a C 
compiler.

Looks like DOS will be around for a while for the hardware hackers!

Andrew McKewan

From: aph@atml.co.uk (Andrew Haley)
Subject: Re: Win32Forth question
Date: 4 Apr 1996 09:39:58 GMT
Message-ID: <4k05de$cvm@gatekeeper.atml.co.uk>
References: <4jtpd4$drd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <316297A7.5452@netcom.com>

Andrew McKewan (mckewan@netcom.com) wrote:
: Regnirps wrote:
: > 
: > I can't find much documentation, so can anybody tell me how to read/write
: > I/O space?
: > 
: > Charlie Springer

: You're not going to like this one:  Write a device driver.

: In Win32, all user-mode applications run in protected mode and the operating 
: system will not allow access to physical memory, I/O, interrupts and other 
: "privileged" instructions.

Something which might be fun is a Forth VxD.  Console I/O could be
performed via the debugger terminal stream.  Has anyone tried this?
It would certainly make writing I/O drivers a lot easier.

Andrew.

From: bradford@maccs.mcmaster.ca (Brad Rodriguez)
Subject: Re: CRC implementation
Date: 4 Apr 1996 12:15:33 GMT
Message-ID: <4k0eh5$kra@church.dcss.McMaster.CA>
References: <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>

Wil Baden gave an excellent talk on calculating CRCs some years ago
at a FORML conference (I believe it was 1991 but I'll have to check).
Proceedings of the FORML conference are, of course, available from
the Forth Interest Group.  :-)

(Or, since you're in the area, Jon, you can borrow my copy.)

Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario 
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html


From: rhh@sunnyboy.lht.rwth-aachen.de (Robert Hoeller)
Subject: Re: LaTeX package to typeset Forth
Date: 04 Apr 1996 12:33:08 GMT
Message-ID: <RHH.96Apr4143309@sunnyboy.lht.rwth-aachen.de>
References: <Dp661G.DM3@hkuxb.hku.hk>
Reply-To: rhh@lht.rwth-aachen.de
In-reply-to: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk's message of Mon, 1 Apr 1996 06:00:52 GMT


>>>>> " " == Zsoter Andras <h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk> writes:

     >  Does any have or does anybody know about a LaTeX package (.sty
     > or the like) to typeset Forth programs?

There is a package for TeX typesetting of programming sources called
TGRIND. Its kind of a port from the older VGRIND which was based upon
TROFF instead of TeX. The program reads a universal language
description file and is therefor suitable for great variety of
languages, including Forth. The only problem with formatting Forth is
that TGRIND assumes special characters not to be part of a word-name
as it works in C :-(.

I once ported the stuff to linux but it should work under DOS
too. There are some bugs which I didn't fix (too lazy -- usually it
works). 

If this is what you were looking for, send me line and I will look for
the sources.

ciao	

robert

From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: 0123 Forth
Date: 4 Apr 1996 13:37:19 GMT
Message-ID: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>

\ I hope now and then to post easy ANS Forth programs
\ that beginners may study and criticize.

\ greet the computer, and be greeted in turn

: I'M  ( 'ccc<char>' -- )  
   0 PARSE
   CR  ." Hello, " TYPE  CR ;

\ Leo Wong






From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 5 Apr 1996 13:57:34 GMT
Message-ID: <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk>

\ sum of the squares between two limits
\ adapted from Moore and Leach, FORTH - A Language for Interactive
\ Computing (Mohasco Industries, Inc., 1970)

: SPIN  ( x1 x2 x3 -- x3 x2 x1 )  
   SWAP ROT ;

: SHIFT  ( lower_limit higher_limit -- 0 higher_limit+1 lower_limit )
   1+  0 SPIN ;

: SQUARED  ( n -- n*n )  
   DUP * ;

: SUM-OF-SQUARES  ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
   SHIFT  
   DO  I SQUARED +  LOOP ;

\ calculate and display sum of squares
: SUMSQ  ( lower_limit higher_limit -- )  
   SUM-OF-SQUARES  U. ;

\ Leo Wong








From: "James P. Meyer" <jimbob@acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:30:25 -0500
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 

On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Julian V. Noble wrote:

> As one of the early purchasers of a Jupiter Ace, and --to my knowledge--
> the only one who ever designed a math coprocessor (AMD 9511) add-on board
> for same, let me beg anyone who wants to emulate the Ace's Forth-in-ROM
> NOT to follow the Jupiter Cantabs floating point conventions.
>.......
> out of the Ace was a poor decision--especially since, as I understand it,
> the Ace's designers were the same people who did the ZX81's ROM Basic.
> After all, if it can be done with an interpretive Basic, Forth should
> use _less_ memory, right?

	I've never seen the insides of the Jupiter Ace, but the outsides 
bear a strong family resembalance to the Sinclair ZX-80/81.  Is there a 
chance that the ROM is the only difference between the machines?  In 
other words, if you posted the contents of a Jupiter's ROM, could I burn 
a replacement for my TS-1000 that would turn it into an Ace?

	How about posting the ROM contents anyway, just in case.

	Jim "I hope...I hope...I hope" Meyer

From: Andy Kirby <A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk>
Subject: Re Re Win32Forth 3.1 Released!! or Taygeta where?
Date: 5 Apr 1996 16:06:51 GMT
Message-ID: <4k3ger$lsh@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk

I have tried all the tayfgeta adresses from Tom Zimmer's post
and don't get any reply. it is as if taygeta does'nt exist.

Although from all the talk of it i'm sure it must.

I don't have any problems accessing other sites.

Does any one know of any mirror's in the UK or mybe even Europe ??

Cheers

Le Kirby (A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk) 


From: "James P. Meyer" <jimbob@acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Forth on a DSP chip?
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:45:38 -0500
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405113218.28958B-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


	It would be fun to write a version of Forth to run on the Analog 
Devices "EZ-KIT lite" DSP demo single board for their DSP-21xx series of 
chips.  Has anybody already done this?  Or will I be "going bravely where 
no one has gone before"?

	Jim



From: Brad Rodriguez <bj@headwaters.com>
Subject: Re: The ideal Forth for an 8-bit processor
Date: 5 Apr 1996 16:09:35 GMT
Message-ID: <4k3gjv$mrf@news.bellglobal.com>
References: <4jmtsb$1vg@whidbey.whidbey.com> <4jojf4$nvt@news.bellglobal.com> <4k0o8v$10r@columbia.acc.brad.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit)


cdahello@comp.brad.ac.uk (xian the desk lisard) wrote:
[re. the author of a 6502 ANS Forth]
>wasn't bruce mcfarling, was it?

Yes.  Thanks.

-- 
Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html



From: Brad Rodriguez <bj@headwaters.com>
Subject: Cheap airfares to Toronto?
Date: 5 Apr 1996 16:33:16 GMT
Message-ID: <4k3i0c$mrf@news.bellglobal.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1PE (Windows; I; 16bit)

For those planning to attend the Rochester conference:  I just saw an ad 
for TWA's new service to Toronto.  Evidently they are offering heavily 
discounted rates from most U.S. cities.  Call your travel agent soon; 
sales like these usually end quickly!

(If anyone hears of any other airline promotions, please post a message 
here!  Thanks.)

-- 
Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html


Date: 05 Apr 1996 10:13:00 +0100

From: All@business.forth-ev.de (Wolfgang Allinger)
Message-ID: <66H7KnAr7QB@business.forth-ev.de>
References: <RJ.96Mar28203105@eli.wariat.org>
	<65m5d-ZM7QB@business.forth-ev.de> <RJ.96Apr1115354@eli.wariat.org>
Subject: Re: Spytrace package for PFE available for beta
X-Charset: ISO-8859-1

 On 01 Apr 96 in article <RJ.96Apr1115354@eli.wariat.org>
 <rj@eli.wariat.org>  (Robert J. Brown)  wrote:

snipp----
  >I guess I could put them in my anon ftp area.  Which LMI Forth are
  >you using?

 I'm using LMI's PC/FORTH, UR/FORTH and 80386 UR/FORTH

Thanks and good bye   Wolfgang

--
FORTHing @ work                 Cheap
                              Fast Good ...pick any two of them
Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang Allinger
Brander Weg 6                 Voice/FAX [+49] [0] 212 / 66 8 11
D-42699 SOLINGEN              eMail: all@business.forth-ev.de
GERMANY
## CrossPoint v3.02 R ##

From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 5 Apr 1996 21:03:44 GMT
Message-ID: <4k41rg$1i06@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>

\ greatest common divisor

: UMOD  ( u1 u2 - remainder)
   0 SWAP  UM/MOD  DROP ;

: EUCLID  ( u1 u2 - gcd )
   ?DUP IF  TUCK UMOD  RECURSE  THEN ;

: GCD  ( u1 u2 -- )  \ display greatest common divisor
   EUCLID  ." The greatest common divisor is "  U. ;

\ Leo Wong







From: tames@alliedtelesyn.com
Subject: Wanted: Forth on the I960
Date: 5 Apr 1996 22:26:50 GMT
Message-ID: <4k46na$rk6@gateway.centre.com>
Keywords: forth, 960


Does anyone have a version of forth that runs on an
Intel 960?

Thanks,
Tim Ames
tames@alliedtelesyn.com

From: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)
Subject: taygeta was offline
Date: 5 Apr 96 22:53:33 GMT
Message-ID: <3165a46d.0@mail.itvcorp.com>
Reply-To: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)

	Taygeta was offline for the past 4 or 5 days but is back now.
	The problem turned out to be a bad ethernet transceiver.

	Skip

-- 
 Everett (Skip) Carter          Phone: 408-641-0645 FAX:  408-394-5561
 Taygeta Scientific Inc.        INTERNET: skip@taygeta.com
 1340 Munras Ave., Suite 223    UUCP:     ...!uunet!taygeta!skip
 Monterey, CA. 93940            WWW: http://www.taygeta.com/skip.html


From: Kendall <all@kendalls.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:44:25 +0100
Message-ID: <CGZIfQAJJaZxEw0T@kendalls.demon.co.uk>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk>
 <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
 <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: kendalls.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duk
e.edu>, "James P. Meyer" <jimbob@acpub.duke.edu> writes
>       How about posting the ROM contents anyway, just in case.

Sorry - this doesn't appear to have been said...

Don't post binaries to CSS!

Phil
-- 
Philip Kendall
all@kendalls.demon.co.uk
pak21@cam.ac.uk

From: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)
Subject: Re: CRC implementation
Date: 5 Apr 96 23:02:48 GMT
Message-ID: <3165a698.0@mail.itvcorp.com>
References: <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>
Reply-To: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)

In article <4jt02i$2nq@ns2.ryerson.ca>, jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) writes:
|> Homework question!
|> 
|> I'm a bit stumped on how to implement a CRC in forth... I'd like to have an
|> address & count on the stack, and get the same, with a n-degree CRC 
|> 


	The Forth Scientific Library algorithm #44 implements several
	CRC algorithms, including CCITT, XMODEM and X.25 CRCs.


	Look on taygeta at ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Scientific
	for all the code


-- 
 Everett (Skip) Carter          Phone: 408-641-0645 FAX:  408-394-5561
 Taygeta Scientific Inc.        INTERNET: skip@taygeta.com
 1340 Munras Ave., Suite 223    UUCP:     ...!uunet!taygeta!skip
 Monterey, CA. 93940            WWW: http://www.taygeta.com/skip.html


From: linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland)
Subject: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 6 Apr 1996 00:56:36 GMT
Message-ID: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>

There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.

Sounds like a good idea?

I think it is a good idea.

In fact, I have thought of it as a good idea for a long time, but have never
had the time (nor nerve) to implement the concept.

As it turned out, I used only a few hours the other night to convert my Forth
text interpreter into a compiler. It still looks an feels like an interpreter,
but it is a compiler.

So what?

Well, I can now forget about state-smart words.

I can forget the problem of CHAR versus [CHAR], .( versus ."  etc.
I have to keep ['] though, as the original behaviour of ' (tick) still seems
to be useful.

There are no "compile-only" words anymore. IF..ELSE..THEN,
BEGIN..WHILE..REPEAT, etc. may now be used outside colon definitions.


Implementation:

The interpreter compile to a buffer in the code space (code segment for 
xxx86).Each word is compiled and immediatly executed (if the control-flow 
stack is empty). A word is compiled by executing its compile-time 
semantics. If the control-flow stack change, the Interpreter Compile Buffer 
(ICB) will not be executed until the control-flow stack is empty. Following 
execution, the compilation pointer for the ICB is reset to the start of the 
ICB.

example:

    1   2   >   if ." true" else ." false" then
   \ / \ / \ /  \--------- compile -----------/ execute
    C E C E C E                                 C-compile, E-execute



This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.


Any comments?



Regards

Pal Nyland
Linkcom Business Development AS
N-6400 Molde
Norway

linkcom@moldenett.no


From: Tom Zimmer <zforth@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Forth From C
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 10:07:57 -0600
Message-ID: <3165455D.B02@ix.netcom.com>
References: <315FE6BC.167EB0E7@paisley.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Apr 05  8:04:56 AM PST 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I)

Robert M Boyce wrote:
> 
> I know this has probably been done a thousand times before, but what is
> the best way to call Forth from C.
> 
> In particular suppose an event loop is running, and one wishes this
> event to loop to start up the Forth interpreter, Process some command
> and then return to the C event loop.  This event loop has been started
> from Forth and is a child process of the Forth System.

I believe you would just want to use a normal Windows Callback procedure
like is used to handle Windows Messages.  Your Forth must provide support
for that kind of operation, since so many of the Windows interface 
functions require callbacks.  You might contact Forth Inc., the US
supporters for ProForth.

Tom Zimmer

From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras)
Subject: Re: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-"
Message-ID: <DpEAru.37E@hkuxb.hku.hk>
References: <DpE48C.n3q@hkuxb.hku.hk>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:23:53 GMT


"Elizabeth D.Rather" (erather@forth.com) wrote:

>Also, a vertical style with comments on every line (shades of assembler!)
>tend to emphasize the trivial and omit the essential:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>: FOO  ( n -- m )   \  Transforms n to m
>     X              \  Get address of X
>     +              \  Add n to X
>     @              \  Fetch content of (X+n)
>;

 Exactly. Unfortunately reading a some of other people's Forth code
[even recommendations is books :-( ] I have adapted this style and I have
to struggle to get rid of it.
What makes reasonably large programs readable is the separation of comments
from the code.
When I went through some parts of the Linux kernel sources I got two
points:

1.) Comments always come BEFORE the code and not in the middle of it.
    Usually a block of comments before each function (before each word
    in Forth) or block of code (C functions tend to be much bigger than
    Forth words) which explains what is going on inside the block of code
    is better than commenting line by line.

2.)  Don't overcomment! You can safely assume that the reader of your
     program will be another programmer who knows what the ++ and -- operrators
     [or in Forth simple words like 1+, SWAP or OVER] are for, you don't
     have to explain such things.

>But, no one has told us what this is all about!  The important commentary
>is What the word does and How to use it (appropriate context & arguments).
>If definitions are kept short and simple (as they should be), their internal
>logic will be clear.

 I agree a million times! Line by line commenting is often abused to
replace explanations. It is much easier to write:

SWAP	\ Exhange TOS with the second item on the stack

than to think about the important points in the algoritms you are
implementing and to give a clue to the reader what the whole stuff is for.
Also this style gives the false satisfaction that you have written more
characters of comments than code, so your program is well documented --
as if comments would have to be measured by weight.
In fact this kind of commenting is just noise.

>
>Ok, enough block-bashing!  Files pre-existed blocks for some years.  Chuck
>consciously rejected file organization for Forth for a variety of good reasons.
>Among them, the same reasons for which Western Civ. rejected scrolls 1,000+ years
>ago.

 Well, if you don't want to be compatible with the rest of the world that
is OK. I love blocks but you cannot use them for anything what is not
Forth-related.

>confusing a poor implementation with a poor technology.  We have offered text file
>support along with polyFORTH for quite a while now, but given the choice none of
>our own programmers (and few of our customers) prefer them given the extensive
>programming aids (browsing tools, X-refs, etc.) associated with blocks as well as
>the extra level of modularity and control they provide.
>

 But you are reinventing the wheel!
E.g. on my Linux box I have editors for text files, grep, awk, etc. to
process their contents and only God knows what else.
To use blocks in such an environment would mean to limit myself to the
tools either made by myself ore provided by the Forth community (as
opposed to the rest of the world).

I do seriously believe that Forth has its place in grown up environments
like Un*x, VMS, or Windows NT. If there are already excellent tools
on those platforms we should not try to replace but strive for making
the best use of them.

Andras


From: regnirps@aol.com (Regnirps)
Subject: Re: Re Re Win32Forth 3.1 Released!! or Taygeta where?
Date: 5 Apr 1996 22:09:41 -0500
Message-ID: <4k4n9l$s3f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4k3ger$lsh@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
Reply-To: regnirps@aol.com (Regnirps)

taygeta seems to be on and off.  Yahoo can direct you there with
www.taygeta.com/Forth.html but it has to be running!  There is a "Bremen
mirror", wherever that is.

From: Dallas Legan <dlegan@engr.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:27:37 -0800
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960405191116.12969A-100000@heart.engr.csulb.edu>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> 

PN>> 
PN>> From linkcom@moldenett.noFri Apr  5 19:11:05 1996
PN>> Date: 6 APR 1996 00:56:36 GMT 
PN>> From: Pal Nyland <linkcom@moldenett.no>
PN>> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
PN>> Subject: Who needs the Forth text interpreter? 
PN>> 
PN>> There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
PN>> not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
PN>> code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.
PN>> 
PN>> Sounds like a good idea?
PN>> 
PN>> I think it is a good idea.
PN>> 
PN>> In fact, I have thought of it as a good idea for a long time, but have never
PN>> had the time (nor nerve) to implement the concept.
PN>> 
PN>> As it turned out, I used only a few hours the other night to convert my Forth
PN>> text interpreter into a compiler. It still looks an feels like an interpreter,
PN>> but it is a compiler.
PN>> 
PN>> So what?
PN>> 
PN>> Well, I can now forget about state-smart words.
PN>> 
PN>> I can forget the problem of CHAR versus [CHAR], .( versus ."  etc.
PN>> I have to keep ['] though, as the original behaviour of ' (tick) still seems
PN>> to be useful.
PN>> 
PN>> There are no "compile-only" words anymore. IF..ELSE..THEN,
PN>> BEGIN..WHILE..REPEAT, etc. may now be used outside colon definitions.
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> Implementation:
PN>> 
PN>> The interpreter compile to a buffer in the code space (code segment for 
PN>> xxx86).Each word is compiled and immediatly executed (if the control-flow 
PN>> stack is empty). A word is compiled by executing its compile-time 
PN>> semantics. If the control-flow stack change, the Interpreter Compile Buffer 
PN>> (ICB) will not be executed until the control-flow stack is empty. Following 
PN>> execution, the compilation pointer for the ICB is reset to the start of the 
PN>> ICB.
PN>> 
PN>> example:
PN>> 
PN>>     1   2   >   if ." true" else ." false" then
PN>>    \ / \ / \ /  \--------- compile -----------/ execute
PN>>     C E C E C E                                 C-compile, E-execute
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
PN>> evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> Any comments?
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> 
PN>> Regards
PN>> 
PN>> Pal Nyland
PN>> Linkcom Business Development AS
PN>> N-6400 Molde
PN>> Norway
PN>> 
PN>> linkcom@moldenett.no
PN>> 
PN>> 
I experimented with something along these lines with the HES/Tom Zimmer
VICForth system (VIC-20) I dug out a year or so ago and started
playing around with some.
("The great general knows how to use both great and small forces"
Sun Tzu paraphrased from somewhere in "The Art of War")

One of the inspirations for my thinking was an article on
"PISTOL" (Portably Implimented STack Oriented Language), so I dubbed
my system "Zipgun". (Possibly no safer then one.)

Another of my inspirations was the presentation Wil Baden gave to
Orange County FIG on interpreted flow control.
I opted not to follow Wil's  plan because the VICForth was stored in 
ROM and not readily subject to revision, and the limited 32K of RAM
placed a premium on useing  as much predefined code from the ROM as
possible - hence not haveing if, else, while etc. redefined.
(But Wil's presentation planted the basic idea.)

Instead I did much as you describe, I in fact used one of the 
edit/compile block buffers for several reasons for the compile buffer.

To handle words that use text input, I borrowed from REXX the 
" <command>" notation for shelling out to the surrounding OS, using 
basicly the techniques of Don Taylors FD article from days of old
on instream macros - perhaps you handle this more gracefully.
Some may object to borrowing syntax/notation from other languages,
but I have always felt this was one of the advantages of an
extensable language - the ability to borrow good ideas when you see
them.  (I also don't know how an extensible language could ever
become obsolete, regardless of Clifford Stolls comments that
created such a stir here a few months back. adaptability = obsolescenc??)
Notations for more recent versions of Forth than FIG for this  
seem a bit excessively wordy to me, and this is used in other
areas of programming.  The " <command> <input>" notation is 
also usefull elsewhere than compiled keyboard input, and so
definitly swings the other from redefining words already in ROM.
Putting the compile buffer in an edit block allowed me to 
look at the instream macros with little trouble while working
things out.

Yet to be worked out is the obvious extension to a history buffer, but
I think the obvious might not be the most Forthian route at this point.
Another route might be a word 'history' (# -- ) that lists the last # 
definitions NUMBERED from the end of the dictionary, with !! or $! 
(# -- ) to execute one of them by this numbering, and perhaps a word
;! to complete compilation and immediately execute the word, therby
eliminating the need for all this stuff.  These things might also be 
accompanied by
'unlink' and more vocabulary manipulation tools ( or in this "context"
more "history" manipulation) - a few that come to my mind are "pred"
and "succ" and build up some with these.
Another thing that comes to my mind is that in the FIG Forth (VICForth)
uses the "width" to define words but not for "find" (or more properly
"-find" in FIG) - this is probably for performance considerations, but
it complicates what would otherwise be straightforward ability to
use contractions for words, which in turn drives the tempation to use
obscure contractions, acronyms or symbols instead of well chosen natural
language words for word names. (or to have them nameless ;-))

My bottomline conclusion is that all effort should be made to
make the simple act of defining words and manipulating them
inteactively from
the keyboard should be made.
In my ideally conceived programming environment, the process of
exploring interactively from the keyboard and prompt
could then be captured by a decompiler,
such as Wil Baden has developed, to a file or blocks or whatever
and documented and saved.

Regards
Dallas E. Legan
P.O. Box 2099
Downey, CA 90242
U.S.A.
(310) 862 - 4854
dlegan@heart.engr.csulb.edu
aw585@lafn.org
delii@sc.liberty.com

From: mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 6 Apr 1996 13:21:17 +0200
Message-ID: <4k5k3d$qbm@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> <Pine.SGI.3.91.960405191116.12969A-100000@heart.engr.csulb.edu>

<linkcom@moldenett.no> (Pal Nyland) wrote Re: Who needs the Forth text 
interpreter?

> There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
> not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
> code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.
>
> Sounds like a good idea?

A very good idea, and frequently discussed in clf (but never put in the FAQ
because we don't have a moderator).

> I think it is a good idea.

The problem is with the implementation. 

[ clear discussion of implementation deleted ]

You introduce a new (to me) idea: to compile and execute single words, 
not complete lines, and to use the control flow stack to check when
execution is allowed.

> This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
> evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.

> Any comments?

What about this:  HEX 10 S" DECIMAL 4 6 + . " EVALUATE . .
It leads to nested ICB's (and nested user variables). 
You probably agree that  [  and  ] are useful words, but they might not work 
in your setup (  3 IF  [ 1 4 + ] LITERAL THEN . ).

There is also a subtle "problem" with words that read or try to change the 
inputstream. In Forth you can't type: BL WORD foo COUNT TYPE <cr> (The system
probably prints TYPE ). Your new Forth nicely types  foo . However, you 
still must compile it like this: : FOO BL WORD COUNT TYPE ; FOO foo <cr> 
because : FOO BL WORD foo COUNT TYPE ; will fail. 

I did look into this compile buffer approach once. When it works it is
possible to design very small interactive target compilers (my TMS320C30 
dsp with only 16 K RAM, my little ARM with 256 K).  I did not succeed 
in making it look like Forth, so I quickly abandoned the idea. 

Christophe Lavarenne (sp?) may have more balanced ideas about this subject.
He held a talk on Euroforth '92, his proposed system should be ready by now.

-marcel 
mhx@IAEhv.nl :: http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/mhx

From: wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Message-ID: <wilbadenDpEqFE.Cnt@netcom.com>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:02:02 GMT

\ Applying Occam's Razor, Show, Tell, and Don't Mumble:

( Sum of the squares between two limits.
( Adapted from Moore and Leach, FORTH - A Language for Interactive
( Computing (Mohasco Industries, Inc., 1970)

      : SQUARED   DUP * ;     ( number -- number**2 )

: SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
      1+   SWAP                     ( higher_limit+1 lower_limit)
      0 ROT ROT                     ( sum higher_limit+1 lower_limit)
      DO                            ( sum)
            I SQUARED +
      LOOP
;

( Calculate and display sum of squares. )

: SUMSQ                       ( lower_limit higher_limit -- )  
      SUM-OF-SQUARES  U.            ( )
;


From: "Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Date: 6 Apr 1996 13:27:15 GMT
Message-ID: <4k5rfj$kkk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4j93es$62@nadine.teleport.com> <4jckle$or8@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>	<4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <948@purr.demon.co.uk> <RJ.96Apr4110457@eli.wariat.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown) wrote:
>...
>Introducing Forth words without names is supposed to be provided for
>in ANS Forth by :NONAME, but my experience with PFE is that it doesn't
>work quite right yet, apparently due to compiler security issues. 
>
>...  The code:
>\ 
>\        : foo bar baz ;		: moby ... ['] foo ... ;
>\ 
>\ may be replaced by:
>\ 
>\        : moby ... { bar baz } ... ;

	What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific Project 
type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is just a naming issue, 
of course, since I like the look of the underlying idea. If the intent is 
to define something inline that takes the place of ['] foo, why not

	: moby  ... [: bar baz ;] ... ;

?

Virtually,

Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au



From: jimbob@acpub.duke.edu (James P. Meyer)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 13:55:31 GMT
Message-ID: <31667799.1929954@news.duke.edu>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu> <CGZIfQAJJaZxEw0T@kendalls.demon.co.uk>

Kendall <all@kendalls.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duk
>e.edu>, "James P. Meyer" <jimbob@acpub.duke.edu> writes
>>       How about posting the ROM contents anyway, just in case.
>
>Sorry - this doesn't appear to have been said...
>
>Don't post binaries to CSS!
>
>Phil

	OK.  How about e-mailing me the binary file?

	Jim



From: Stephen Pelc <sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 96 14:13:24 GMT
Message-ID: <828800004snz@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>
Reply-To: sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-Mail2News-Path: mpeltd.demon.co.uk

In article <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> linkcom@moldenett.no "Pal Nyland" writes:
> There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
> not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
> code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.
... 
> Any comments?
This idea has been discussed and implemented several times. I believe there
are papers by Christophe Lavarenne in EuroForth and EuroFORML proceedings.
--
Stephen Pelc, sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 1703 631441, fax: +44 1703 339691

From: linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 6 Apr 1996 14:43:16 GMT
Message-ID: <4k5vu4$jt7@ulke.hiMolde.no>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> <Pine.SGI.3.91.960405191116.12969A-100000@heart.engr.csulb.edu>

In message <4k5k3d$qbm@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> - mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix) writes:

:>
:><linkcom@moldenett.no> (Pal Nyland) wrote Re: Who needs the Forth text 
:>interpreter?
:>
:>> There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
:>> not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
:>> code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.
:>>
:>> Sounds like a good idea?
:>
:>A very good idea, and frequently discussed in clf (but never put in the FAQ
:>because we don't have a moderator).
:>
:>> I think it is a good idea.
:>
:>The problem is with the implementation. 
:>
:>[ clear discussion of implementation deleted ]
:>
:>You introduce a new (to me) idea: to compile and execute single words, 
:>not complete lines, and to use the control flow stack to check when
:>execution is allowed.
:>
:>> This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
:>> evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.
:>
:>> Any comments?
:>
:>What about this:  HEX 10 S" DECIMAL 4 6 + . " EVALUATE . .
:>It leads to nested ICB's (and nested user variables). 
:>You probably agree that  [  and  ] are useful words, but they might not work 
:>in your setup (  3 IF  [ 1 4 + ] LITERAL THEN . ).
:>
:>[deleted]
:>
:>-marcel 
:>mhx@IAEhv.nl :: http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/mhx

Yes, ( HEX 10 S" DECIMAL 4 6 + . " EVALUATE . ) does not work as expected. 
Neither does ( 3 IF  [ 1 4 + ] LITERAL THEN . ).

This does not worry me much because the above exapmples did not work in the 
first place.

Nested ICB's is not complex to implement, and would cure the above problems. 
The problem of altered BASE worry me even less because this problem is 
already well known and not caused by behaviour of the interpreter - sorry, 
compiler.


However, I am pleased to report that I still have not found any adverse side 
effects of removing the interpretive state. I have recompiled my Forth system 
using my Forth metacompiler, and I have recompiled my forth metacompiler 
using my Forth system. No part of the existing code seem to think anything 
unusual is going on. Even a few application programs have been recomiled 
without change.

It is hard to believe, but it seems that i have added functionality to my 
Forth system by removing complexity. 

Sounds familiar?




From: wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Message-ID: <wilbadenDpEyHw.FGL@netcom.com>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <wilbadenDpEqFE.Cnt@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:56:20 GMT

\ And now for the production version.    :-)

      : SQUARE-SUM DUP DUP 1+ * SWAP 2* 1+ * 6 / ; ( n -- Sigma i**2 )

: SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
      DUP SQUARE-SUM SWAP 1- SQUARE-SUM -       ( sum_of_squares )
;

From: mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
Subject: Re: Writing an operating system
Date: 6 Apr 1996 17:48:48 +0200
Message-ID: <4k63p0$dse@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>
References: <4hncj3$7h9@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <828635112.3640@abwillms.demon.co.uk>

alaric@abwillms.demon.co.uk (Alaric B. Williams) wrote Re: Writing an 
operating system

> mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix) wrote:
[ snip ]
>>You would have to say in which way you want it to be different from, 
>>for instance, Linux. 
>
>Well, it'd be best ot look at my Web pages about that, or join the
>list and lurk awhile... it's kinda complex, and I've explained the
>whole thing from scratch to too many people now! I'll write a simple
>FAQ at some point.

I visited your home page, but did not join the list.

[ about Burgess' book 'Developing your own 32-bit Operating System' ]

>But you miss the point. We're not just writing another kernel. We're
> designing a philosophy. 
But .. a philosophy is best designed by a single person, comfortably
seated in an ivory tower (IHMO I hasten to add). Writing the kernel is 
then done by a large population of enthusiasts that don't understand
the philosophy at all but know everything about bits and bytes 
(Re "Linux" :-)). You're reversing the approach. If you succeed in designing
a philosophy with a team of Forth hackers I've never seen a Forth
hacker :-)

[ .. ]

>>It can be done, but it is a lot of work. Why do you think we should do it?
>
>Another put it far more nicely than I can:
>
>-------------8<------------------
>
>There is a world of men and women who cherish the Machine as a pure
>joy of elegance and beauty, who revel in it as a fascinating realm of
>mathematics come alive. The wrold of blessed minds needs a fresh block
>of silicon to hew and sculpt, a virgin plot to sow with the electron
>seeds of ther Machine. For my part, I intend to make Argon this
>sophisticated new power.
>
>Matt McNaughton, ARGON project mailing list maintainer
>
>-----------8<------------------

This answers the question why a single person would want too, and also
why a group of people feeling like this will not succeed :-(

> Convinced? See http://www.hardcafe.co.uk/Alaric/os/index.htm

-marcel 
mhx@IAEhv.nl :: http://www.IAEhv.nl/users/mhx
Date: 06 Apr 1996 17:26:00 +0100

From: joerg.staben@jrgforth.forth-ev.de (Joerg Staben)
Message-ID: <66K-CiKV5VB@jrgforth.forth-ev.de>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
	<dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
	<4k41rg$1i06@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
X-Charset: ISO-8859-1

A great idea - those little programs!

Please go on!

Ciao
Joerg

Fotografieren und Forth programmieren
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From: "Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The ideal Forth for an 8-bit processor
Date: 6 Apr 1996 16:17:57 GMT
Message-ID: <4k65fl$nht@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4jmtsb$1vg@whidbey.whidbey.com> <4jojf4$nvt@news.bellglobal.com> <4k0o8v$10r@columbia.acc.brad.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

cdahello@comp.brad.ac.uk (xian the desk lisard) wrote:
>thus spake Brad Rodriguez in comp.lang.forth...
>
>. I think someone on this group was working on an ANS Forth
>. for the 6502, but my brain has just gone blank and I can't
>. recall who.
>
>wasn't bruce mcfarling, was it?

	You know, it may have been -- it even may be -- i.e., present 
tense. At present, my real live functioning 6502 processors are on
the Eastern side of the Pacific, and I'm on the Western, but I've
started to make progress again on the Forth side. If finished in a 
releasable form, it will be for the ACE operating system on the
Commodore 64 / 128 computers, so it would be called AceForth,
unless someone already uses that name (BTW: is there another Forth 
already using that name?).


	And, yes, I would have made more progress to this date if
I didn't constantly side-track myself into a different slang
I call Nicl (which on alternate Tuesdays stands for Namespace 
Interpretor and Command Language)

Virtually,

Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au


From: Marc de Groot <marc@immersive.com>
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 10:21:45 -0800
Message-ID: <3166B639.5021@immersive.com>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu> <CGZIfQAJJaZxEw0T@kendalls.demon.co.uk> <31667799.1929954@news.duke.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I)

James P. Meyer wrote:
> 
> Kendall <all@kendalls.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Don't post binaries to CSS!
> >
> >Phil
> 
>         OK.  How about e-mailing me the binary file?
> 
>         Jim

Or, with Skip's assent, how about putting it on taygeta?

-- 
----
   Marc de Groot      |  Immersive Systems, Inc. 
<marc@immersive.com>  |  http://www.immersive.com
                      |    Real VR for the net!
"If you hold an empty oil can up to your ear, you can
 hear the freeway."

From: Tom Zimmer <ZForth@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Re Re Win32Forth 3.1 Released!! or Taygeta where?
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 23:02:06 +0000
Message-ID: <3165A66E.3EB8@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4k3ger$lsh@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Apr 05 10:51:01 PM CST 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Andy Kirby wrote:
> 
> I have tried all the tayfgeta adresses from Tom Zimmer's post
> and don't get any reply. it is as if taygeta does'nt exist.
> 
> Although from all the talk of it i'm sure it must.

I suppose you have tried all of these, but here they are again;

http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html
ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Win32For/w32for31.exe
ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Win32For/w32for31.faq
ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Win32For/w32for31.txt

> I don't have any problems accessing other sites.

I sometimes have trouble getting onto taygeta, you might try 
calculating the time difference between where you are and california.
Then try to get taygeta at 2 AM to 5 AM california time. Things
should be a little quieter then.

> Does any one know of any mirror's in the UK or mybe even Europe ??

ftp://ftp.uni-bremen.de/pub/languages/programming/forth/Taygeta-Archive

Skip lists this as the Bremen Mirror.

Tom Zimmer

From: vern_tallman@usa.pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Wanted: Forth on the I960
Date: 7 Apr 1996 04:34:52 GMT
Message-ID: <4k7glc$89a@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>
References: <4k46na$rk6@gateway.centre.com>
X-PipeUser: vern_tallman
X-PipeHub: usa.pipeline.com
X-PipeGCOS: (Vernon M. Tallman)

If you can't locate one explicitly designed for the 960, you might try one
of the versions written in C - UNTIL, ATLAST, CFORTH, HENCE4TH, THISFORTH,
PFE... 
 
Some are easier to build than others.  I've been successful building ATLAST
& find it to be a nice package with lots of functionality that you can
conditionally compile in - including floating point. 
 
I think all of these packages are available at the Taygeta site. 
 
Vern Tallman

From: john@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au (John "West" McKenna)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: 7 Apr 1996 04:54:25 GMT
Message-ID: <4k7hq1$6a8@styx.uwa.edu.au>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>

jvn@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Julian V. Noble) writes:

>If anyone is interested in the co-processor board, I can post its
>schematic on taygeta, together with the sad story of its design and
>the demise of the Jupiter Ace. It appeared in Larry Forsley's mag,
>Definitions last year some time.

I'd love to see it.  I started an emulator some time ago, but never
finished.  I think I had it emulating Z80 (I pinched someone else's code
for that, and fixed the bugs) and updating the display, but I never got
keyboard input working.  I'm not a programmer.

All I had at the time was a ROM image.  It was *great* fun trying to
construct a description of the hardware from that - feeding the code
through every disassembler I had to find which processor it used, seeing
how the screen worked by guessing which routines drew on it.  I even
managed to calculate the processor clock speed from the length of the loop
in BEEP (or whatever it was called).

I bought one secondhand later, and it looks a great hacker's machine.
Everything is out in the open in standard 74xx parts.  Even without
documentation, it is simple enough to understand how it works.

John West

From: Stephen Pelc <sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Winf32Forth
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 96 06:31:09 GMT
Message-ID: <828858669snz@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
References: <4k2560$3j2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk
X-Mail2News-Path: mpeltd.demon.co.uk

In article <4k2560$3j2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> regnirps@aol.com "Regnirps" writes:
> Well, I guess I am hosed for the moment.  ANy suggestions on downloading a
> vanilla DOS or 3.1 Forth?  I normally use my PC just for compiling C for
> embedded micros and a PAL programmer, but I have a pair of 24 bit digital
> I/O cards to drive a simulator.  The cards are supposed to look like 82XX
> or whatever the parallel chip is and I address them in the usual I/O space
> like $2C0, etc.  ANy ideas?
ProForth for Windows will do this fine under W3.11 and W95. Under
NT you will need to add a GenPort driver.

For more details of PFW, please send me your postal address.
--
Stephen Pelc, sfp@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 1703 631441, fax: +44 1703 339691


From: ahorne@aa.net (Art Horne)
Subject: Re: Internet Resource List - Forth - Pointer and Plea
Date: 7 Apr 1996 05:27:49 GMT
Message-ID: <4k7jol$r76@Holly.aa.net>
References: <4jbn0n$k9d@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4jgrt4$598@Holly.aa.net><4jbn0n$k9d@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4jgrt4$598@Holly.aa.net> <315E0247.B85@immersive.com>
Reply-To: ahorne@aa.net

In message <315E0247.B85@immersive.com> - Marc de Groot
<marc@immersive.com>Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:55:51 -0800 writes:
:>
:>Art Horne wrote:
:>> 
:>> In message <4jbn0n$k9d@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> -
:>> ninapint@ix.netcom.com(Nina Pinto) writes:
:>> :>We maintain a list of Forth-related Internet Resources at:
:>> :>http://www.cera2.com/forth.htm
:>> :>http://www.eg3.com/forth.htm
:>> 
:>> Tried both URLs with no success.
:>> 
:>> Art
:>
:>I tried both URLs this evening, and succeeded at accessing them.  Perhaps it
was a 
:>temporary failure somewhere...

You're right.  Thanks.  I got on both of them, no problem.

_________________________
Art Horne  K6KFH
ahorne@aa.net
May the FORTH be with you
_________________________


From: wtanksle@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (William Tanksley)
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 18:24:46 -0500
Message-ID: <4k7nbu$l1c@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>
References: <4j93es$62@nadine.teleport.com>
 <4jckle$or8@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com> <4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com>
 <948@purr.demon.co.uk> <RJ.96Apr4110457@eli.wariat.org>
 <4k5rfj$kkk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>

"Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote to us all:
>rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown) wrote:

>>Introducing Forth words without names is supposed to be provided for
>>in ANS Forth by :NONAME, but my experience with PFE is that it doesn't
>>work quite right yet, apparently due to compiler security issues. 

>>...  The code:

>>\        : foo bar baz ;		: moby ... ['] foo ... ;

>>\ may be replaced by:

>>\        : moby ... { bar baz } ... ;

>	What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific Project 
>type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is just a naming issue, 
>of course, since I like the look of the underlying idea. If the intent is 
>to define something inline that takes the place of ['] foo, why not

>	: moby  ... [: bar baz ;] ... ;

This dicussion should lead to some VERY useful things.  I had tried to get
this same thing working in F-PC, but I stopped when it seemed to require too
much knowledge of the internals.

The names I had used were "-{" and "}-"; they look nice and allow for
another naming convention: words that take an unnamed definition as argument
begin with -.  So:

dup
4 <   test               \ set up the following conditional
                         \ a little clearer than just placing it on
			 \ the stack; allows the programmer to vary the 
			 \ order.
-{     do i things      loop }-  -if
-{ 4 - do i 4 + things  loop }-  -otherwise

Of course, a similar naming convention could apply to yours as well--
probably something like a : prefix, so that :if and :otherwise would be
equivalent to my -if and -otherwise.  (I like that a little better than
mine, actually.)

Next we "need" to set up a basic lambda system, so that it's possible to
build a true lambda-calculus.  Here's a sample form:

: complex ( real imag -- )
        2 lambdas -{ use-lambdas  
	             Form @ Polar = if ri>Polar then
		   }-
       ;

3 4 location -is HomeBase

Polar Form !
CR ." > " HomeBase . .
> 45 5

Of course, that does no more than CREATE-DOES>, but it's just a sample.  My
point is that this can be partially acomplished fairly easily, without
requiring that every word (or even every -{}-) support it.  All the word
"lambdas" has to do is allocate the given numbers of cells (I'm not going to
do anything special for char or double) and store the TOS into them,
returning the address; use-lambdas needs to record the address of that
immediately and fetch all its contents at runtime.

Of course, if you thought the distinction between compile-time and runtime
was hard to grasp sometimes, try this-- there can be any number of
'compiletimes' within one word now!

>Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW

-Billy

From: "Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Comments about comments (was: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-")
Date: 7 Apr 1996 07:56:36 GMT
Message-ID: <4k7sfl$e0e@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

	I dislike the one-dimensional vertical style as much as
I dislike the one-dimensional horizontal style.  If each word
definition is analogous to a paragraph, then there is a level
between the definition and the individual word which is analogous
to a sentence.  As each sentence is intended to convey a complete 
thought, there is a level between the individual words used and
the definition that involves a 'complete stack thought'.  This
paragraph / sentence / word hierarchy is *not* an automatic part
of spoken english, but is rather something we learn to create as
we learn to compose written language.  So, too, the composition
of longer definitions into coherent stack activities is a learned
skill ( or as, for a programming example, the composition of
'operator idioms' is a learned skill of APL).

	A qualification, here: the ability to re-use activies that
have been defined as words implies that there should be more
one-liner Forth definitions than there are one sentence paragraphs
in a well composed text!  But for a definition that is *not* a
natural one liner, I find a well-composed, well-indented sequence
of lines easier to read than a 'paragraph-style' string of
activies that have been fit into as few lines as possible, *and*
easier to read than an archaic assembler one instruction per line 
approach.


	There is something missing in the analogy to the well-composed 
paragraph: the thesis sentence! I think that on the line immediately 
below the naming and primary stack comment should come an explanation
of what the word is trying to do ... because armed with that, it's a
lot easier to monkey around with the definition itself if the
definition doesn't work for you! Let's get serious: are you more
likely to be looking at the source when everything works, or when 
something has failed? And, just as important, is it going to be more
*important* to read the source when everything is working, or when
something is broken?  The code says in Forthese what the code does 
(unless your compiler is buggy 8-)# but if what it does isn't what
it is supposed to do, which is more important? I am arguing that
what it is supposed to do is more important when the two differ.
So I guess what I am saying is the following:

 
	: foo ( n1 addr -- n0 )
	\  Get n0 from addr, and store n1 at addr in its place
	\
		DUP @ >R ! R>
	;

	Noticing the obvious simplicity of automating the process of
browsing a text file (or set of text files) for ": <filename> (" and 
viewing the string of lines until "\<CR>" appears is left as an exercise
for the reader.

Virtually,

Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au


From: "Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 7 Apr 1996 13:47:51 GMT
Message-ID: <4k8h27$pa1@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong) wrote:
>\ sum of the squares between two limits
>\ adapted from Moore and Leach, FORTH - A Language for Interactive
>\ Computing (Mohasco Industries, Inc., 1970)
>
>: SPIN  ( x1 x2 x3 -- x3 x2 x1 )  
>   SWAP ROT ;

	Is this a common name for this operation? It's one of the 
primitive is use, e.g., to define ROT, except I called it FLIP.

: ROT ( x1 x2 x3 -- x2 x3 x1 )
\  ROTate the 3rd stack item to the top, pushing the top 2 items down
\
	SWAP FLIP
;

I did it that way because I use the 6502 'Y' index register as a work 
register, and with the X-indexed data stack I can juggle two bytes
	lda W
	ldy sl,x	; it must be this order
 	sta sl,x	; since no sty $aaaa,x is available
	sty W
	; (same for W+1 and sh,x)
more rapidly and with less code than I can juggle three items. Since I 
can use "FLIP" elsewhere, I decided to go with the space saving and pay 
for the extra subtroutine call and jump.

	But should I call it SPIN? Or SWAP3? Or something else?

Virtually,

Bruce McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au


From: Tom Zimmer <ZForth@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 18:06:15 +0000
Message-ID: <3166B297.4EDA@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> <Pine.SGI.3.91.960405191116.12969A-100000@heart.engr.csulb.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Apr 06  3:57:46 PM PST 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Dallas Legan wrote:
> 
> I experimented with something along these lines with the HES/Tom Zimmer
> VICForth system (VIC-20) I dug out a year or so ago and started
> playing around with some.

Wow, it is neat to know that there is at least one VIC-20 still running,
and it is running Forth.

Tom Zimmer

P.S.  Lets see now, what year was that?

From: Tom Zimmer <ZForth@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 18:10:59 +0000
Message-ID: <3166B3B3.826@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> <828800004snz@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Apr 06  4:02:30 PM PST 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Stephen Pelc wrote:
> 
> In article <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no> linkcom@moldenett.no "Pal Nyland" writes:
> > There was this idea that came from Stoic (a Forth-like language). Stoic does
> > not interpret the input stream. Instead all text input is compiled. Compiled
> > code that is not part of a definition is executed and then forgotten.
> ...
> > Any comments?
> This idea has been discussed and implemented several times. I believe there
> are papers by Christophe Lavarenne in EuroForth and EuroFORML proceedings.

On the other hand, there is no problem with new people covering old ground,
the process of discovery can be exciting, whether you are the first to 
discover it or not.  I think we old geezers need to watch out though, when
we start covering old ground because we forgot we had covered it before.

Lets see now, what was my name?

From: ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Subject: Re: Writing an operating system
Date: 7 Apr 96 23:13:29 +1000
Message-ID: <1996Apr7.231329.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4hncj3$7h9@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <828635112.3640@abwillms.demon.co.uk>

	While going through this thread earlier this week (I had saved
the articles to a text file, and was moving it from shell to hard disk),
my perspective on the question changed.  I was thinking about an
interpreter implementation when I first saw the ~vocablist~word proposal, 
and read it in that light.
	When I say the proposal again, I was thinking about namespaces. 
In terms of namespaces, the forth vocabulary tools, whether fig, F79, ANS 
vocbaulary word builder words, or whatever, are primarily focused on 
bringing vocabularies into context.  Indeed, one of the strengths of the 
better Forth vocabulary systems is the ability to bring multiple 
vocabularies into context in a general but controlled way.
	As a namespace question, what is the ~ proposal about (in 
addition to the seperator character question and the persistent store 
questions)?  Even though bringing a namespace into context is a powerful 
idea, there may be occasions where it is preferable to be able to 
explicitly refer to the source namespace.

	Seen in this light, the most natural forth implemention would 
seem to be not an extension of the interpreter to support explicit 
namespace reference, but rather a word that supports explicit namespace 
reference.  For this, <namespace-handler> <explicit-namespace> <name> 
seems to be a natural dataflow: "I'm going to make an explicit reference; 
it's to this location; and it's this item."  As a bonus, whatever the 
hierarchical seperator used in <explicit-namespace> -- as long as 
it is *not* space -- it will be collected in a single name string, and 
there will be no ambiguity if the hierarchical seperator also appears in 
normal forth words, since those will always be in the second rather than 
the first name string following the handler word.

	Given this last point, / is a perfectly fine seperator, and I 
don't see anything wrong with ~ as the name of the namespace-handler:

	~ /file-systems/minix/ open

And, of course, by using the slash for the explicit namespace, the path 
is left open for URL reference to external explicit namespace reference.

	One issue I see in this type of approach is whether to make the 
external reference opaque or available to POSTPONE ' ['] etc.  I 
honestly don't see how to make the external reference available, except 
through external-reference extended versions, e.g.

	~POSTPONE /file-systems/minix/ open

But of course this is probably yet another case where a seasoned forth
hand will prove me wrong. 8-)#
	In any event, it may be better to simplify before it starts and
leave it opaque: to levae it so that, as at present, POSTPONE ' ['] etc.
work on words in context, and if the words cannot be brought into context
perhaps it is better not to try to give an xt style reference to the word,
in which case the way to actually postponse the external reference is by
evaluating ~ ... ... at the desired time. Maybe this fits into a message
passing model that would fit the URL path alluded to above? (this is
something for wiser heads than mine to remark upon.)

Virtually,

Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au


 <name> will still be a normal forth word. 



From: Rehana Rodrigues <rzr1+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 01:58:52 GMT
Message-ID: <4k9rss$ksj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
References: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk>

Chris Jakeman <cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In an "April Fools' Day" item of the FIG UK magazine, Gordon Charlton
>> 
> But seriously, has anyone tried writing a reversible Forth?
> 
From : Anil Rodrigues via Rehana R:
If I understand you right I am highly skeptical that such is 
possible. 
If   X Y AND result in Z, 
then given Z and Y one cannot uniquely find X. 
Or am I out in left field ? 

Date: 07 Apr 1996 01:27:00 +0100

From: All@business.forth-ev.de (Wolfgang Allinger)
Message-ID: <66P8A6q67QB@business.forth-ev.de>
References: <4k3ger$lsh@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
	<4k4n9l$s3f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Subject: Re: Re Re Win32Forth 3.1 Released!! or Taygeta where?
X-Charset: ISO-8859-1

 On 05 Apr 96 in article <4k4n9l$s3f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
 <regnirps@aol.com>  (Regnirps)  wrote:

  >taygeta seems to be on and off.  Yahoo can direct you there with
  >www.taygeta.com/Forth.html but it has to be running!  There is a
  >"Bremen mirror", wherever that is.
    ^^^^^^          ^^^^^^^^
    a City in the Northwest edge of Germany, nearby of the Northsea.

I tried this mirror and it works.

--
FORTHing @ work                 Cheap
                              Fast Good ...pick any two of them
Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang Allinger
Brander Weg 6                 Voice/FAX [+49] [0] 212 / 66 8 11
D-42699 SOLINGEN              eMail: all@business.forth-ev.de
GERMANY
## CrossPoint v3.02 R ##

From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras)
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Message-ID: <DpJJpM.7su@hkuxb.hku.hk>
References: <4k7nbu$l1c@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:24:57 GMT

William Tanksley (wtanksle@sdcc15.ucsd.edu) wrote:
>
>>>\ may be replaced by:
>
>>>\        : moby ... { bar baz } ... ;
>
>>	What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific Project 
>>type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is just a naming issue, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>of course, since I like the look of the underlying idea. If the intent is 
>>to define something inline that takes the place of ['] foo, why not

 With naming conventions we are in deep shit anyway.
All the potentially useful short names '(', ',', '.', ':', ';', '#',
'!', '?' '[' are used for something sometimes unnecessarily.
How often do you type # , what justifies this horrible waste of a
potentially useful name?

The same holds to [ . I am happy that at least the standard does not
reseve { and } for anything.

Andras


From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Message-ID: <DpJJwB.7x2@hkuxb.hku.hk>
References: <3166B3B3.826@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:28:58 GMT

Tom Zimmer (ZForth@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>> This idea has been discussed and implemented several times. I believe there
>> are papers by Christophe Lavarenne in EuroForth and EuroFORML proceedings.

 He also presented so of the ideas in the FORML conference last November.
However I still don't see if an ANS Forth compliant system can be implemented
that way. Executing defining words on the wrong place can mess things up.
Well, probably a language without compilation and interpretation state
would be cleaner, we just have to throw away almost all the old code. :-(

Andras


From: Mike Gill <ak32@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Help Please Fig Forth question from Forth beginner
Date: 8 Apr 1996 14:31:09 GMT
Message-ID: <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; I; 16bit)

Anyone Help Please !

How can I assemble a number from a keyboard into a variable.
There are commands for incrementing variables, but what I need is to tye a 
number at the keypad i.e. 123 and have 123 stored in the variable.

Any advice appreciated

Mike
ak32@dial.pipex.com (UK)



From: ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 9 Apr 96 00:33:25 +1000
Message-ID: <1996Apr9.003325.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <wilbadenDpEqFE.Cnt@netcom.com> <wilbadenDpEyHw.FGL@netcom.com>

In article <wilbadenDpEyHw.FGL@netcom.com>, wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
writes:
> \ And now for the production version.    :-)
> 
>       : SQUARE-SUM DUP DUP 1+ * SWAP 2* 1+ * 6 / ; ( n -- Sigma i**2 )
> 
> : SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
>       DUP SQUARE-SUM SWAP 1- SQUARE-SUM -       ( sum_of_squares )
> ;

Well, I wrote him about this, and here is his reponse (he quoted my
message, so the most important part of that is here, too) 
-------------------------------------------------
From wilbaden@netcom.com Tue Apr  9 00:14:52 1996
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT) 

From: "W.Baden" <wilbaden@netcom.com>
To: ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Subject: "You're right" 

[ NB. Single '>' is me, no '>' is Wil Baden, and in square brackets is me
talking now, as I am doing right now (though I guess that was obvious)]

> I disagree! 8-)#
> 
> I mean, I don't diagree with the code, I disagree that this is the 
> efficient way to layout the production code. At a bare minimum:
> 
> : SQUARE-SUM ( n -- Sigma i**2)
> 	DUP DUP 1+ *	\ [1] n n(n+1)
> 	SWAP 2* 1+ *    \ [2] {n(n+1) * (2n+1)}
> 	6 /		\ [3] "/6
> ;

[Followed by a discussion of why, if it worked but was too slow, I
would like things to have been broken down as above, and also pointing
out that when the code was written, all this was known, so the comments
are just information preservation, and don't require anything new]
. . .

I agree with you.  I am condemned by my own rules.

I violated "There should never be any doubt as to what's on the stack",
"Everything worth saying about anything worth saying something about 
MUST be expressed in six or fewer pieces", "There should be a stack
comment whenever something changes the nature or order of what's on the
stack".

But don't overlook the `:-)' at the end of the line.  This was intended
to be provocative.  I'm grateful for your response.

The most serious omission from my one-liner is a comment that explains 
what I'm doing.

	\ Compute: n(n+1)(2n+1)/6

Also `* 6 /' should be `6 */'.

I would be most happy if you would post your response, this explication,
and any further response you might have.
--
Procedamus in pace.   Wil Baden   Costa Mesa, California
--------------------------------------------------------
... and so I did. I'll skip the part about posting my full response,
because on second thought the rest of it was verbiage while I thought
my way into Forth, and the above is the crucial point.

Virtually,

Bruce McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au

From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 8 Apr 1996 15:22:40 GMT
Message-ID: <4kbb00$1mbc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>

Joerg Staben (joerg.staben@jrgforth.forth-ev.de) wrote:

> A great idea - those little programs!
> 
> Please go on!

Please, your turn.  Also: anyone else?

Seriously, I hope others will display some of their own Forth 
"pebbles".


Wil Baden (wilbaden@netcom.com) wrote: 

> \ And now for the production version.    :-)
> 
> : SQUARE-SUM DUP DUP 1+ * SWAP 2* 1+ * 6 / ; ( n -- Sigma i**2 )
>
> : SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
>       DUP SQUARE-SUM SWAP 1- SQUARE-SUM -       ( sum_of_squares )
> ; 

Wow!  Includes an exercise in debugging.  Thank you, Wil.
 

Bruce R. McFarling" (ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au) wrote:

> MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong) wrote:
..
>> : SPIN  ( x1 x2 x3 -- x3 x2 x1 )  
>>    SWAP ROT ;

>        Is this a common name for this operation? 

I doubt it.  

>  But should I call it SPIN? or SWAP3?  Or something else?

I avoided FLIP because some people use it for >< .  ROT probably 
fits best, but is taken ;-) .  If SWAP ROT (or its CODE version)
defines a useful word, then it should have a name.  If it's best 
left as a phrase, then it should go nameless.  I think if I were 
you I'd continue to say FLIP .

The philo-forthical question is:  What makes a good word?

Leo




From: linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 16:28:29 GMT
Message-ID: <4kberd$m1s@ulke.hiMolde.no>
References: <3166B3B3.826@ix.netcom.com>

In message <DpJJwB.7x2@hkuxb.hku.hk> - h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras) 
writes:
:>
:>Tom Zimmer (ZForth@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:>>> This idea has been discussed and implemented several times. I believe there
:>>> are papers by Christophe Lavarenne in EuroForth and EuroFORML proceedings.
:>
:> He also presented so of the ideas in the FORML conference last November.
:>However I still don't see if an ANS Forth compliant system can be implemented
:>that way. Executing defining words on the wrong place can mess things up.
:>Well, probably a language without compilation and interpretation state
:>would be cleaner, we just have to throw away almost all the old code. :-(
:>
:>Andras
:>
:>


By executing single words immediatly after compilation, Your old code does 
not notice any difference. 

A phrase like:  ( VARIABLE TEST  TEST OFF ), still work as expected.

Even: ( VARIABLE TEST ' TEST EXECUTE OFF ) works.


Regards

Pal Nyland


---
Pal Nyland
Linkcom Business Development AS
P.O. 197
N-6401 Molde

Phone: +47 71215744
Fax:   +47 71215717
Email: linkcom@moldenett.no



From: flacy@crchha99.nortel.com (Mark Flacy)
Subject: Re: Help Please Fig Forth question from Forth beginner
Date: 08 Apr 1996 11:08:20 -0500
Message-ID: <yw0rbul2d7gr.fsf@crchha99.nortel.com>
References: <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net>
In-reply-to: Mike Gill's message of 8 Apr 1996 14:31:09 GMT

In article <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net> Mike Gill <ak32@dial.pipex.com> writes:

>Anyone Help Please !
>
>How can I assemble a number from a keyboard into a variable.
>There are commands for incrementing variables, but what I need is to tye a 
>number at the keypad i.e. 123 and have 123 stored in the variable.
>
>Any advice appreciated
>
>Mike
>ak32@dial.pipex.com (UK)
>

How about 

123 the_name_of_the_variable_that_you_want_to_store_into !

?


Or am I (more likely) missing the point?

-- 

\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Mark A. Flacy     |     flacy@nortel.com |     ESN 445-8347
\                   |    (214) 685-8347    |     Department 2B51
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Someday I may speak for Nortel.
\ Someday pigs may howl at a full moon.
\ Expect the latter to occur first.
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------


From: "Elizabeth D.Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Subject: Re: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-"
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 09:52:13 -0700
Message-ID: <3169443D.3EC1@forth.com>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <828660822snz@tcontec.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)

Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> 
> In article <31640D7C.5872@forth.com>
>            erather@forth.com "Elizabeth D.Rather" writes:
> 
> > Ok, enough block-bashing!  Files pre-existed blocks for some years.  Chuck
> > consciously rejected file organization for Forth for a variety of good reasons.
> > Among them, the same reasons for which Western Civ. rejected scrolls 1,000+
> >  years
> > ago.
> 
> I think you will find that it is the other way around. During the time of the
> first truly symbolic electronic computers (Collosus and Pilot) the storage was
> hand written and in a block format (a page or card). Later we shunned blocks
> when Paper Tape came about. But Punched Cards were also around at that time so
> we did not forget block storage altogether. Following paper tape we managed to
> store data on a Magnetic Tape (a block storage device) and other magnetic media
> like Drum and Disc (also block storage devices). It's just that we now try and
> fool ourselves that our block storage devices keep information in virtual paper
> tapes. :)

Paul may be entirely correct as to computer science history, but in the narrower
sphere of storing program source, files were certainly in common use in Chuck's
experience when he designed Forth.  Moreover, a Forth block size and format 
(1024 bytes formatted for edition as 16x64) was conceived as independent of storage
format (tape, disk or whatever) for portability purposes.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

From: "Elizabeth D.Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Subject: Re: Comments about comments (was: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-")
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:09:56 -0700
Message-ID: <31694864.7C07@forth.com>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com> <4k7sfl$e0e@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)

Bruce R. McFarling wrote:
> ...  If each word
> definition is analogous to a paragraph, then there is a level
> between the definition and the individual word which is analogous
> to a sentence.  As each sentence is intended to convey a complete
> thought, there is a level between the individual words used and
> the definition that involves a 'complete stack thought'.  This
> paragraph / sentence / word hierarchy is *not* an automatic part
> of spoken english, but is rather something we learn to create as
> we learn to compose written language.  So, too, the composition
> of longer definitions into coherent stack activities is a learned
> skill ( or as, for a programming example, the composition of
> 'operator idioms' is a learned skill of APL).

In the original design of Forth (as well as our continuing practice)
the definition is intended to be analogous to the sentence, and the
block to the paragraph (a group of definitions/sentences devoted to
a single "topic").  The overwhelming majority of defs (again, both
in Chuck's early code and our today) are 1-3 lines long.  Three blocks
with their corresponding shadows reside neatly on a page (the next
larger organizational structure).  The comment lines (line 0) of
60 blocks forms a one-page index (and can be formatted on the terminal
screen for browsing) and thus 60 blocks becomes analogous to a chapter.
As we have developed our programming tools around this layered modularity,
we find they support good program maintenance well.

As I indicated previously, we are attempting to find the appropriate
model for porting these concepts to text-file source, but are finding
it more difficult.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

From: "Elizabeth D.Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Subject: Re: Forth for windows - where to get?
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 10:17:28 -0700
Message-ID: <31694A28.2C46@forth.com>
References: <AFonHOnyAM@tellur.kiev.ua> <31645C1A.1381@tir.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
To: "Michael A. Losh" <mlosh@tir.com>

Michael A. Losh wrote:
> I've also had an demo from Forth, Inc. of the ProForth for Windows.  It
> is a package that they sell and support developed by MPE in England. The
> system was quite impressive and had additional tools that make writing
> windows apps much easier.  Their staff is very impressive as well, and
> can offer live support if you need it. Forth, Inc. is on the Web at:
>   http://www.earthlink.net/~forth
> I think their system is also 16-bit for Windows 3.1.

Thanks for the nice words, but our web site's address is unfortunately
changing to http://home.earthlink.net/~forth (the ...www... form is available
during a transition period only).  I think services do that just to confuse
and harass their customers ;-(

Cheers,
Elizabeth

From: "Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Date: 8 Apr 1996 17:10:46 GMT
Message-ID: <4kbham$sfe@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
References: <4j93es$62@nadine.teleport.com> <4jckle$or8@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com> <4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <948@purr.demon.co.uk> <RJ.96Apr4110457@eli.wariat.org> <4k5rfj$kkk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4k7nbu$l1c@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

wtanksle@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (William Tanksley) wrote:
>"Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote to us all:

well, I asked:
>>	What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific Project 
>> type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is just a naming
>> issue, of course, since I like the look of the underlying idea.
>> If the intent is to define something inline that takes the place
>> of ['] foo, why not

>>	: moby  ... [: bar baz ;] ... ;

> This dicussion should lead to some VERY useful things.  I had tried
> to get this same thing working in F-PC, but I stopped when it seemed
> to require too much knowledge of the internals.

> The names I had used were "-{" and "}-"; they look nice and allow for
> another naming convention: words that take an unnamed definition as
> argument
> begin with -.  So:

>Next we "need" to set up a basic lambda system, so that it's possible to
>build a true lambda-calculus.  Here's a sample form:

>: complex ( real imag -- )
>        2 lambdas -{ use-lambdas  
>	             Form @ Polar = if ri>Polar then
>		   }-
>       ;

How this will look if it is an example that is doing something with
vector operations: perhaps building a vector of xt's for some 
table-driven execution, where, for example, 'default' is a particular 
index into the table.  If we start putting

	-{ foo bar }-

on the same page with vector expressions like

	table{ default }

I forsee confusion. And I've looked at the matrix stuff in the FSL, and 
like it, and am going to use it, and the likelihood that I will rewrite 
it for a different vector notation is nil or negligable.

	That said, I have no particular brief for [: ;] -- they are just 
the first thing that came to mind. Somebody say whether or not they are 
evocative of what is going on:

: complex ( real imag -- )
	2 lambdas
	[: use-lambdas
	   Form @ Polar =
               if ri>Polar
           then
	;]
;

The visual problem (which I just notice -- amazing how leaving foo and 
bar behind reveals hidden problems) is that visually [: looks like 
use-lambdas is the name, when what is needed is to convey that there is 
no name. Perhaps

	:[ use lambdas Form @ Polar = if ri>Polar then ];

and I also just noticed that only the first character in the :[ ]; 
sequence requires shifting, which for me would reduce typos. (Or aren't 
we supposed to consider typos when we make a new name?) Of course, these 
are particularly severe looking frowny faces, but I *know* we are 
supposed to pretend we don't notice that when considering a serious 
question like this.

Virtually,

Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW
ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au



From: smurf@noris.de (Matthias Urlichs)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 8 Apr 1996 19:46:59 +0200
Message-ID: <4kbjej$glb@work.smurf.noris.de>
References: <4kbb00$1mbc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In comp.lang.forth, article <4kbb00$1mbc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>,
  MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong) writes:
> Joerg Staben (joerg.staben@jrgforth.forth-ev.de) wrote:
> > MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong) wrote:
> ..
> >> : SPIN  ( x1 x2 x3 -- x3 x2 x1 )  
> >>    SWAP ROT ;
> >        Is this a common name for this operation? 
> I doubt it.  
> 
I tend to use words named '%###' (###: digits showing former stack
positions) for this kind of thing, possibly appended with "-###" to show
the stack positions which were dropped if that isn't obvious.

For instance, I would use : %123 SWAP ROT ; for SPIN (the TOS is number
one). TUCK ( x1 x2 -- x2 x1 x2 ) I'd name %121, and its inverse %-3.

IMHO this convention is a win because stack permutations are damn difficult
to get right if you have something entirely different in mind at the
moment, and to come up with distinctive names for the beasts (I never can
remember whether ROT fetches the third item up or tucks the first item two
down (it's the former; -ROT usually does the latter)), so I just write %213
and %132 for them.

-- 
Coming together is a beginning;
       keeping together is progress;
               working together is success.
-- 
Matthias Urlichs        \ XLink-POP Nürnberg  | EMail: urlichs@smurf.noris.de
Schleiermacherstraße 12  \  Unix+Linux+Mac    | Phone: ...please use email.
90491 Nürnberg (Germany)  \   Consulting+Networking+Programming+etc'ing     42
          PGP: 1B 89 E2 1C 43 EA 80 44  15 D2 29 CF C6 C7 E0 DE 
       Click <A HREF="http://smurf.noris.de/~smurf/finger">here</A>.

From: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: 8 Apr 96 18:48:37 GMT
Message-ID: <31695f85.0@mail.itvcorp.com>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu> <CGZIfQAJJaZxEw0T@kendalls.demon.co.uk> <31667799.1929954@news.duke.edu> <3166B639.5021@immersive.com>
Reply-To: skip@taygeta.com (Skip Carter)

In article <3166B639.5021@immersive.com>, Marc de Groot <marc@immersive.com> writes:
|> James P. Meyer wrote:
|> > 
|> > Kendall <all@kendalls.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|> > >Don't post binaries to CSS!
|> > >
|> > >Phil
|> > 
|> >         OK.  How about e-mailing me the binary file?
|> > 
|> >         Jim
|> 
|> Or, with Skip's assent, how about putting it on taygeta?
|> 

	By all means,  ftp it to taygeta (now that the faulty ethernet transceiver has
	been replaced).

	All incoming code should be placed in pub/incoming or pub/incoming/forth
	with a separate "readme" file.   I will then move it to the appropriate location
	for public access.

	BTW if you are going to be e-mailing binary files around, you should uuencode them
	to ASCII first.  You can get Forth sources for UUENCODE/UUDECODE from taygeta.



-- 
 Everett (Skip) Carter          Phone: 408-641-0645 FAX:  408-394-5561
 Taygeta Scientific Inc.        INTERNET: skip@taygeta.com
 1340 Munras Ave., Suite 223    UUCP:     ...!uunet!taygeta!skip
 Monterey, CA. 93940            WWW: http://www.taygeta.com/skip.html


From: rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown)
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Date: 08 Apr 1996 06:28:12 GMT
Message-ID: <RJ.96Apr8012812@eli.wariat.org>
References: <4j93es$62@nadine.teleport.com> <4jckle$or8@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>
	<4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <948@purr.demon.co.uk>
	<RJ.96Apr4110457@eli.wariat.org> <4k5rfj$kkk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
In-reply-to: "Bruce R. McFarling"'s message of 6 Apr 1996 13:27:15 GMT

>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce R McFarling <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au> writes:

    Bruce> rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown) wrote:
    >> ...  Introducing Forth words without names is supposed to be
    >> provided for in ANS Forth by :NONAME, but my experience with
    >> PFE is that it doesn't work quite right yet, apparently due to
    >> compiler security issues.
    >> 
    >> ...  The code: \ \ : foo bar baz ; : moby ... ['] foo ... ; \ \
    >> may be replaced by: \ \ : moby ... { bar baz } ... ;

    Bruce> 	What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific
    Bruce> Project type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is
    Bruce> just a naming issue, of course, since I like the look of
    Bruce> the underlying idea. If the intent is to define something
    Bruce> inline that takes the place of ['] foo, why not

    Bruce> 	: moby ... [: bar baz ;] ... ;

I like that notation, except that my own convention for square bracket
notation puts the modified outsied the bracket rather than inside, and
I prefer symetrical bracket pairs, which would look like this:

		: moby ... :[ bar baz ]: ... ;
--
-----------  "...  And the men went up and viewed Ai."  [Jos 7:2]  -----------
Robert Jay Brown III  rj@eli.wariat.org  http://eli.wariat.org  1 847 705-0370
Elijah Laboratories Inc;  759 Independence Drive;  Suite 5;  Palatine IL 60074
-----  M o d e l i n g   t h e   M e t h o d s   o f   t h e   M i n d  ------

From: Bernd Paysan <paysan@informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: Forth and AI
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 23:29:51 +0200
Message-ID: <3166E24F.4B9A35F1@informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
References: <4j93es$62@nadine.teleport.com> <4jckle$or8@news1.h1.usa.pipeline.com>	<4jegvu$2ht@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <948@purr.demon.co.uk> <RJ.96Apr4110457@eli.wariat.org> <4k5rfj$kkk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b2 (X11; I; Linux 1.3.83 i486)

Bruce R. McFarling wrote:
> 
> rj@eli.wariat.org (Robert J. Brown) wrote:
> >...
> >Introducing Forth words without names is supposed to be provided for
> >in ANS Forth by :NONAME, but my experience with PFE is that it doesn't
> >work quite right yet, apparently due to compiler security issues.
> >
> >...  The code:
> >\
> >\        : foo bar baz ;               : moby ... ['] foo ... ;
> >\
> >\ may be replaced by:
> >\
> >\        : moby ... { bar baz } ... ;
> 
>         What is this going to do when it hits Forth Scientific Project
> type notation for vectors, matrices, etc.? This is just a naming issue,
> of course, since I like the look of the underlying idea. If the intent is
> to define something inline that takes the place of ['] foo, why not
> 
>         : moby  ... [: bar baz ;] ... ;

The { ... } is also used for local variables. Looks like there are too few
different bracket/braces/parentesis style characters in the ASCII character
set ;-). The idea of [: and ;] is good, however.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"Late answers are wrong answers!"
http://www.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~paysan/

From: gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk (Gordon Charlton)
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 20:36:13 +0100
Message-ID: <AD8F293D9668549F@charlton.demon.co.uk>
References: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> <4k9rss$ksj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: charlton.demon.co.uk

In article <4k9rss$ksj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
Rehana Rodrigues <rzr1+@pitt.edu> wrote:

}Chris Jakeman <cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> wrote:
}
}> In an "April Fools' Day" item of the FIG UK magazine, Gordon Charlton
}>> 
}> But seriously, has anyone tried writing a reversible Forth?
}> 
}From : Anil Rodrigues via Rehana R:
}If I understand you right I am highly skeptical that such is 
}possible. 
}If   X Y AND result in Z, 
}then given Z and Y one cannot uniquely find X. 
}Or am I out in left field ? 
}

IIRC (and it was a long time ago) Psychic Forth used an extra stack,
demominated the History Stack, to record such information as was necessary
to reconstruct previous states when running backwards.

In your example AND would place Z on the Data Stack, and X and Y on the
History Stack.

The problem is that the History Stack tends to grow very large. This can be
overcome by restricting the running backwards facility to jumping to marked
points in the code, and pruning anything from the History Stack that is not
necessary to return to a marked point in the code.

There are a set of problems that are greatly simplified by this facility -
those where the most desirable course of action cannot be determined in
advance. 

Consider the quizshow game where one either takes the money or opens the
box. The ideal approach is to elect to open the box, and if the prize
therein is not desirable to travel back in time to the point before the
decision was made and elect to take the money instead. Psychic Forth allows
this.

Gordon.



From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Forth & Farming
Date: 8 Apr 1996 20:07:57 GMT
Message-ID: <4kbrmt$pn0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>

Did I once say that Forth was computer husbandry?  This paragraph from
David Ehrenfeld, Beginning Again: People & Nature in the New Millennium
(ISBN 0-19-507812-8) may be relevant:

Sustainable agriculture has the potential of being presented to 
farmers the way computer hardware and software are often presented:  
as a user-friendly package whose technology does not have to be 
understood.  The temptations to present it this way will be great.
After all, as anyone who has tried to understand the mathematics of
pest population dynamics or the economics of market systems is likely
to agree, sustainable agriculture is not a simple business.  But
difficult as it may be, the designers of the new agriculture will have
to resist the temptation to prepare simplified user-manuals that don't
offer serious explanations of what is going on and that don't encourage
farmers to modify and improve the system in light of their own
practical experience.  The experts should welcome the challenge to
communicate with farmers in a reciprocal fashion, for once the method
of the exchange has been worked out, research and discovery will
proceed at a faster rate.  And without this kind of communication we 
are bound to fail, much as modern medicine fails when it treats the
patient as a consumer who has no right to participate in the design of
his or her own recovery.  No technology that treats the farmer as the
last and bottom link in a hierarchically organized, expert-dominated
chain of transmitted wisdom has a chance of success.

Leo








From: bouma@cs.purdue.edu (Bill Bouma)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 16:01:56 -0500
Message-ID: <4kbus4$8uu@deneb.cs.purdue.edu>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>


In article <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>, linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland) writes:
|> Well, I can now forget about state-smart words.
|> 
|> I can forget the problem of CHAR versus [CHAR], .( versus ."  etc.
|> I have to keep ['] though, as the original behaviour of ' (tick) still seems
|> to be useful.
|> 
|> There are no "compile-only" words anymore. IF..ELSE..THEN,
|> BEGIN..WHILE..REPEAT, etc. may now be used outside colon definitions.

On the surface, it looks like a good idea, but you really don't gain
anything.  I have experimented with this and there are a lot of tradeoffs.
It doesn't really make Forth better, it just makes it different.

For instance, what good are IF..ELSE..THEN on the command line?  It
doesn't work as a read time conditional since you automatically compile
the whole thing before evaluation.  Now you have certain words that 
behave differently inside/outside the construct, because you run words
outside immediately, but you compile them when inside.

|> This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
|> evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.
|> 
|> Any comments?

A couple of times I have tried this and then gone back to the "normal"
way.  This last time I was going to write down all the things I didn't
like about it, so that the next time I was tempted, I could refer back.
But then I thought, 'Naaaa, I'll just remember it is a bad idea and not
try it again.'
-- 
Bill <bouma@cs.purdue.edu>            
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/bouma  --  The worm gets the late bird.

From: flacy@crchha99.nortel.com (Mark Flacy)
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Date: 08 Apr 1996 15:52:04 -0500
Message-ID: <yw0rag0mcubv.fsf@crchha99.nortel.com>
References: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk>
	<4k9rss$ksj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
	<AD8F293D9668549F@charlton.demon.co.uk>
In-reply-to: gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk's message of Mon, 08 Apr 1996
	20:36:13 +0100

In article <AD8F293D9668549F@charlton.demon.co.uk> gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk (Gordon Charlton) writes:

>IIRC (and it was a long time ago) Psychic Forth used an extra stack,
>demominated the History Stack, to record such information as was necessary
>to reconstruct previous states when running backwards.
>
>In your example AND would place Z on the Data Stack, and X and Y on the
>History Stack.
>
>The problem is that the History Stack tends to grow very large. This can be
>overcome by restricting the running backwards facility to jumping to marked
>points in the code, and pruning anything from the History Stack that is not
>necessary to return to a marked point in the code.
>
>There are a set of problems that are greatly simplified by this facility -
>those where the most desirable course of action cannot be determined in
>advance. 
>
>Consider the quizshow game where one either takes the money or opens the
>box. The ideal approach is to elect to open the box, and if the prize
>therein is not desirable to travel back in time to the point before the
>decision was made and elect to take the money instead. Psychic Forth allows
>this.
>
>Gordon.
>
>


Ouch!


Let go of my leg!

-- 

\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Mark A. Flacy     |     flacy@nortel.com |     ESN 445-8347
\                   |    (214) 685-8347    |     Department 2B51
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Someday I may speak for Nortel.
\ Someday pigs may howl at a full moon.
\ Expect the latter to occur first.
\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland)
Subject: Re: Who needs the Forth text interpreter?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 23:09:21 GMT
Message-ID: <4kc6b1$oq2@ulke.hiMolde.no>
References: <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>

In message <4kbus4$8uu@deneb.cs.purdue.edu> - bouma@cs.purdue.edu (Bill 
Bouma) writes:
:>
:>
:>In article <4k4fg4$cqt@ulke.hiMolde.no>, linkcom@moldenett.no (Pal Nyland) writes:
:>|> Well, I can now forget about state-smart words.
:>|> 
:>|> I can forget the problem of CHAR versus [CHAR], .( versus ."  etc.
:>|> I have to keep ['] though, as the original behaviour of ' (tick) still seems
:>|> to be useful.
:>|> 
:>|> There are no "compile-only" words anymore. IF..ELSE..THEN,
:>|> BEGIN..WHILE..REPEAT, etc. may now be used outside colon definitions.
:>
:>On the surface, it looks like a good idea, but you really don't gain
:>anything.  I have experimented with this and there are a lot of tradeoffs.
:>It doesn't really make Forth better, it just makes it different.
:>
:>For instance, what good are IF..ELSE..THEN on the command line?  It
:>doesn't work as a read time conditional since you automatically compile
:>the whole thing before evaluation.  Now you have certain words that 
:>behave differently inside/outside the construct, because you run words
:>outside immediately, but you compile them when inside.
:>

Yes, there are certain words that parse the input stream.

When I think of the command line as all source code that is not part of colon 
or code definitions, I see many uses for IF..ELSE..THEN.

:>
:>|> This single-state interpreter/compiler is still new to me, and I have not yet
:>|> evaluated every implication of the change. I have a good feeling, though.
:>|> 
:>|> Any comments?
:>
:>A couple of times I have tried this and then gone back to the "normal"
:>way.  This last time I was going to write down all the things I didn't
:>like about it, so that the next time I was tempted, I could refer back.
:>But then I thought, 'Naaaa, I'll just remember it is a bad idea and not
:>try it again.'
:>-- 
:>Bill <bouma@cs.purdue.edu>            
:>http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/bouma  --  The worm gets the late bird.


I would be very interested if someone do remember why a compiling interpreter
might be a bad idea. 


However, I still claim to have gained an advantage in not having to teach my 
kids two ways to print immediate strings.

cr .( Hello )


: HELLO ( -- )   cr ." Hello" ;  

When iquired I can now tell my children to use dot-quote whithout first 
asking whether they want to print a string from the command line or from 
inside a word. And I think I can get away with this without beeing a 
state-smart-ass.


Some points in favour of the compiling interpreter:

  - The outer interpreter is simpler (no more switching between 
    compiling and interpreting).

  - State-smart words are gone.

  - Control structures on the command line is very velcome for embedded 
    systems which are running from ROM, particulary if that system does not 
    have a colon-compiler. 

  - the added complexity of the compile buffer is very small.



Regards

Pal Nyland


---
Pal Nyland
Linkcom Business Development AS
P.O. 197
N-6401 Molde

Phone: +47 71215744
Fax:   +47 71215717
Email: linkcom@moldenett.no


From: gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk (Gordon Charlton)
Subject: Re: Comments about comments (was: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-")
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 00:48:23 +0100
Message-ID: <AD8F6457966837750@charlton.demon.co.uk>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com> <4k7sfl$e0e@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <31694864.7C07@forth.com>
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: charlton.demon.co.uk

In article <31694864.7C07@forth.com>,
"Elizabeth D.Rather" <erather@forth.com> wrote:

}As I indicated previously, we are attempting to find the appropriate
}model for porting these concepts to text-file source, but are finding
}it more difficult.

Can't resist this one...

As you have pointed out to us, blocks are primarily let down by
ill-considered editors.

Text files are, internally, a sequence of characters delineated by CRs (or
CR/LFs etc), and as such are convenient for printing on continuous feed
paper. That does not mean they have to be displayed as such on a computer
screen. 

Surely the best approach is to figure out how you would like code displayed
whilst developing it, and write an editor around that. Sure - save the code
to disk as a text file if that makes the world happy - it shouldn't hinder
layered modularity, and will release programmers from the fixed size of
modules determined by the block structure.

Gordon.

(Just what the world needs - another amateur who knows it all. :-)



From: Tom Zimmer <ZForth@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Winf32Forth
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 19:10:39 +0000
Message-ID: <3168132F.6055@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4k2560$3j2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <828858669snz@mpeltd.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Apr 07  6:02:04 PM PDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Stephen Pelc wrote:
> 
> In article <4k2560$3j2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> regnirps@aol.com "Regnirps" writes:
> > Well, I guess I am hosed for the moment.  ANy suggestions on downloading a
> > vanilla DOS or 3.1 Forth?  I normally use my PC just for compiling C for
> > embedded micros and a PAL programmer, but I have a pair of 24 bit digital
> > I/O cards to drive a simulator.  The cards are supposed to look like 82XX
> > or whatever the parallel chip is and I address them in the usual I/O space
> > like $2C0, etc.  ANy ideas?
> ProForth for Windows will do this fine under W3.11 and W95. Under
> NT you will need to add a GenPort driver.

Actually, any Forth or C, or Pascal, or Basic should be able to do this
under Windows 3.1 or Windows95, since they don't provide any protection
from user access to the hardware.

The most difficult problem Microsoft faces, is how to get their developers
to modify existing programs to run under WindowsNT, which does protect itself
from user access to hardware.  And it does it in such a way, that no programmer
in his (or her) right mind would want to access hardware after finding out what 
they have to do to access it. (did I just call all porgrammers insane?)

So Microsoft in all it's wisdom has decided to develop a new common driver
development system that will be common to both Windows95 and WindowsNT.  The
only question is will it be more difficult than the current driver development 
systems, or easier.  I will let you guess.

Tom Zimmer

From: jcomeau@world.std.com (John O Comeau)
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Message-ID: <DpKLtv.1qq@world.std.com>
References: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:08:19 GMT

Chris Jakeman (cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: Exploring this idea could be entertaining - but before I do, has anyone
: else tried it in Forth or any other environment?

I've never written such a thing but many editors use a journal file to 
allow "undo" to backtrack through your edits. You might consider 
something along those lines. - John

--
jcomeau@world.std.com aka John Otis Lene Comeau
Home page: http://world.std.com/~jcomeau/
Disclaimer: Don't risk anything of value based on my advice.
Witty signature: (under construction)

From: Dallas Legan <dlegan@engr.csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: Forth & Farming
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:43:33 -0700
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960409023414.1368A-100000@heart.engr.csulb.edu>
References: <4kbrmt$pn0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <3169D5E7.70DB@tir.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <3169D5E7.70DB@tir.com> 

MAL>> 
MAL>> From mlosh@tir.comTue Apr  9 02:34:05 1996
MAL>> Date: Mon, 08 APR 1996 23:13:43 -0400 
MAL>> From: "Michael A. Losh" <mlosh@tir.com>
MAL>> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
MAL>> Subject: Re: Forth & Farming 
MAL>> 
MAL>> Leo Wong wrote:
MAL>> > 
MAL>> > Did I once say that Forth was computer husbandry?
MAL>> > ...
MAL>> 
MAL>> Back in the May/June 1993 issue of Forth Dimentions was a letter from 
MAL>> Glen Dixon where he relayed an anecdote from Utah's govoernor, Mike 
MAL>> Leavitt, where Mr. Leavitt's farming grandfather "made do with an old 
MAL>> tractor for years and years, while his neighbor... had to have the 
MAL>> latest time-saving farm implement.  When asked about his philosophy, the 
MAL>> grandfather said, 'I like to stick with what's real and right.'   Over 
MAL>> time, the neighbor went broke paying for his equipment, while Mike's 
MAL>> grandfather thrived."  
MAL>> 
MAL>> Glen Dixon felt that Forth was "real and right."  So do I.  I enjoy 
MAL>> .........
MAL>> Equally, there is also no doubt that many software managers would prefer 
MAL>> an agri-industry approach: dump in the proper ratio of chemicals, 
MAL>> energy, genetic technology, equipment, biomass, and labor (a decreasing 
MAL>> ...........
MAL>> I could take the analogy further.  Any other opinions out there?
MAL>> --
MAL>> Mike Losh       mlosh@tir.com
MAL>> 
I understand, that during the Korean War, the American fighter plane
that had the highest ratio of "kills" to "being shot down" against
the MIG-15 was not
the state of the art (for the time) F-86 Sabre Jet, but the 
F-51 Mustang, largely because the pilots were so experienced from
WW II, and knew the capabilities of the plane so thoroughly.
Regards,
Dallas E. Legan
P.O. Box 2099
Downey, CA 90242
U.S.A.
(310) 862 - 4854
dlegan@heart.engr.csulb.edu
aw585@lafn.org
delii@sc.liberty.com


From: wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Message-ID: <wilbadenDpK000.5rA@netcom.com>
References: <4k0jaf$1sbs@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <dpchv8.ldo@hkuxb.hku.hk> <4k38se$ff0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <wilbadenDpEqFE.Cnt@netcom.com> <wilbadenDpEyHw.FGL@netcom.com> <1996Apr9.003325.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:16:48 GMT


\ This version is for real.

      ( Compute n[n+1][2n+1] == Sigma i**2 )
      : SQUARE-SUM                  ( n -- Sigma i**2 )
            DUP DUP 1+ * >R                     ( R: n[n+1])
                  2* 1+                   ( 2n+1)
            R> 6 */                       ( Sigma i**2 )(R: )
      ;

\ No one has yet mentioned the error in my SUM-OF-SQUARES.  This
\ error would have been caught by a stack comment.  It's fixed here.

( Sum of squares from lower_limit to higher_limit )
: SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
      SQUARE-SUM SWAP                     ( sum lower_limit)
      1- SQUARE-SUM -                     ( sum_of_squares )
;

\ SQUARE-SUM is indented because it is not intended to be an end-user
\ word here.  >R is used to avoid modifying the stack.  Everything
\ between >R and R> is indented so I won't forget to clear the rack.
--
Procedamus in pace.     Wil Baden   Costa Mesa, California

From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras)
Subject: Re-post: Test results
Message-ID: <DpK69q.JI8@hkuxb.hku.hk>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:32:14 GMT


Last time I have posted some test results comparing pfe, gforth and doof
on a Linux box.
Anton Ertl was so kind to warn me that there was a caching problem on
my machine. After some checks I discovered that for whatever reason
the external cache was disabled when I ran the tests.
So here is an upgraded version of the results:

Machine (486 DX2-66) under Linux. The tests are those that came with
gforth, except that I have executed sieve 300 times.
The numbers are the time values which appear on the output of Linux's time
command in the user column:

		sieve[*]	bubble		fib	matrix

pfe-0.9.14	13.94		51.90		58.67	42.55

gforth-0.1beta	8.76		34.01		33.50	27.42

doof-0.1.0	3.94		17.31		15.32	11.57
(This one 
generates
machine code.)

For comparasion fib in C (compiled with gcc, unoptimized): 8.82.

Andras

PS: I still would be interested in seeing some more test which are STANDARD
and will run UNCHANGED on all of the above systems.

PS: I hope this time everything is all right!


From: Peter Bishop <pgb@adelard.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 12:12:14 GMT
Message-ID: <527656335wnr@adelard.demon.co.uk>
References: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: pgb@adelard.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: adpgb.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Tuesday, Apr 09, 1996 12.12.14
X-Mail2News-Path: relay-4.mail.demon.net!post.demon.co.uk!adpgb.demon.co.uk

In article: <828369021snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk>  Chris Jakeman 
<cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In an "April Fools' Day" item of the FIG UK magazine, Gordon Charlton
> published ('93) an item entitled 'Psychic Programming', which described a
> Forth that ran backwards!
> 
> But seriously, has anyone tried writing a reversible Forth?
> 
 
Yes indeed, the concept is a general one - an arbitrarily complex calculation can be performed
reversibly (see original refs on Landauer 1968 and Bennett 1973). The main significance
is that it is possible to perform computations without using energy (no this
is NOT an April Fools joke). Provided you can compute, save the answer, and reverse,
the energy consumed is - in principle - arbirtrarily small. The energy is related to the amount
of information disorder  (analogous to entropy) - if you can reverse the calculation there is no 
additional disorder and hence no heat..

The concept has already been used to produce a reversible LISP (Baker 92), and people
are thinking about inherently reversible computer instruction sets (Storrs-Hall 92).
MIT have a whole group working on reversible computing, and there are implementations
of reversible VLSI logic.

I have implemented a simple reversible language built on top of an existing FORTH.
As with all such designs you have to save "garbage data"  to reconstruct the reverse
with AND and OR you have to save *everything*. I will leave the reversal of 
IF THEN and DO LOOP structures as an execise for the reader.

It is quite fun to see it undoing commands right back to the beginning.
Be warned though, the reversible version of my language was 25 times slower than a direct 
implementation.
      
For those interested here is a bibliography of references on reverisble computing


	Peter Bishop, Adelard
% -*- LaTeX -*-
%* Last edited: Nov  8 10:51 1995 (cvieri)

@PhDThesis{marg,
  AUTHOR = "N. H. Margolus",
  TITLE = "Physics and Computation",
  SCHOOL = "MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory",
  YEAR = 1988 }

@Unpublished{bart,
  author = 	 "Edward Barton",
  title = 	 "A Reversible Computer Using Conservative Logic",
  year =	 1978,
  note =	 "Term paper for 6.895 at MIT"
}
% Fairly detailed design. Appears not to be concerned with energy recovery.

@ARTICLE{ben1,
  AUTHOR = "C. H. Bennett",
  TITLE = "Logical Reversibility of Computation",
  JOURNAL = "IBM Journal of Research and Development",
  VOLUME = 6,
  YEAR = 1973,
  PAGES = "525-532" }

@ARTICLE{ben2,
  AUTHOR = "C. H. Bennett",
  TITLE = "Notes on the history of reversible computation",
  JOURNAL = "IBM Journal of Research and Development",
  VOLUME = 32,
  YEAR = 1988,
  NUMBER = 1,
  PAGES = "281-288" }

@ARTICLE{ben3,
  AUTHOR = "C. H. Bennett",
  TITLE = "The Thermodynamics of Computation, a Review",
  JOURNAL = "International Journal of Theoretical Physics",
  VOLUME = 21,
  YEAR = 1982,
  NUMBER = 12,
  PAGES = "905-940" }

@ARTICLE{ben4,
  AUTHOR = "C. H. Bennett",
  TITLE = "Time/Space Trade-offs for Reversible Computation",
  JOURNAL = "Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics Journal on
  Computing",
  VOLUME = 18,
  YEAR = 1989,
  NUMBER = 4,
  PAGES = "766-776" }

@ARTICLE{land1,
  AUTHOR = "R. Landauer",
  TITLE = "Irreversibility and Heat Generation in the Computing Process",
  JOURNAL = "IBM Journal of Research and Development",
  VOLUME = 5,
  YEAR = 1961,
  PAGES = "183-191" }

@ARTICLE{land2,
  AUTHOR = "R. Landauer",
  TITLE = "Uncertainty Principle and Minimal Energy Dissipation in the
  Computer",
  JOURNAL = "International Journal of Theoretical Physics",
  VOLUME = 21,
  YEAR = 1982,
  NUMBER = "3/4",
  PAGES = "283-297" }

@ARTICLE{land3,
  AUTHOR = "R. Landauer",
  TITLE = "Computation: A Fundamental Physical View",
  JOURNAL = "Found. Physics",
  VOLUME = 16,
  YEAR = 1986,
  PAGES = "260-266" }

@ARTICLE{feyn,
  AUTHOR = "R. P. Feynman",
  TITLE = "Quantum Mechanical Computers",
  JOURNAL = "Foundations of Physics",
  VOLUME = 16,
  YEAR = 1986,
  NUMBER = 6 }

@InProceedings{yk1,
  AUTHOR = "Younis, S. G. and Knight, Jr., T. F.",
  TITLE = "Practical Implementation of Charge Recovering Asymptotically
  Zero Power {CMOS}",
  BOOKTITLE = "Proceedings of the 1993 Symposium in Integrated Systems",
  PUBLISHER = "MIT Press",
  YEAR = 1993,
  PAGES = "234-250" }

@InProceedings{yk2,
  AUTHOR = "Younis, S. G. and Knight, Jr., T. F.",
  TITLE = "Asymptotically Zero Energy Split-Level Charge Recovery Logic",
  BOOKTITLE = "International Workshop on Low Power Design",
  YEAR = 1994,
  PAGES = "177-182" }
  
@InProceedings{yk3,
  AUTHOR = "Younis, S. G. and Knight, Jr., T. F.",
  TITLE = "Harmonic Resonant Rail Drivers for Adiabatic Logic",
  BOOKTITLE = "Proceedings of the 1995 Symposium on Advanced Research
  in VLSI",
  PUBLISHER = "MIT Press",
  YEAR = 1995 }

@PhDThesis{you,
  AUTHOR = "S. G. Younis",
  TITLE = "Asymptotically Zero Energy Computing Using Split-Level Charge
  Recovery Logic",
  SCHOOL = "MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory",
  YEAR = 1994 }

@MastersThesis{ress2,
  AUTHOR = "A. L. Ressler",
  TITLE = "The Design of a Conservative Logic Computer and a Graphical
  Editor Simulator",
  SCHOOL = "MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory",
  YEAR = 1981 }

@Misc{ress1,
  AUTHOR = "A. L. Ressler",
  TITLE = "Practical Circuits Using Conservative Reversible Logic",
  HOWPUBLISHED = "Bachelor's thesis, MIT",
  YEAR = 1979 }

@BOOK{max,
  AUTHOR = "J. C. Maxwell",
  TITLE = "Theory of Heat",
  PUBLISHER = "Longmans, Green \& Co.",
  ADDRESS = "London",
  EDITION = "4th",
  YEAR = 1875 }

@BOOK{max2,
  EDITOR = "Harvey S. Leff and Andrew F. Rex",
  TITLE = "Maxwell's demon : entropy, information, computing",
  PUBLISHER = "Princeton University Press",
  ADDRESS = "Princeton, N.J.",
  SERIES = "Princeton series in physics",
  YEAR = 1990 }

@ARTICLE{szi,
  AUTHOR = "L. Szilard",
  TITLE = "On the Decrease of Entropy in a Thermodynamic System by the
  Intervention of Intelligent Beings",
  JOURNAL = {Zeitschrift f\"{u}r Physik},
  VOLUME = 53,
  YEAR = 1929,
  PAGES = "840-852",
  NOTE = "English translation in {\em Behavioral Science}, 9:301-310, 1964"
  }

@UNPUBLISHED{fred1,
  AUTHOR = "E. F. Fredkin and T. Toffoli",
  TITLE = "Design Principles for Achieving High-Performance Submicron
  Digital Technologies",
  NOTE = "DARPA Proposal",
  YEAR = "1978",
  MONTH = "November" }

@ARTICLE{fred2,
  AUTHOR = "E. F. Fredkin and T. Toffoli",
  TITLE = "Conservative Logic",
  JOURNAL = "International Journal of Theoretical Physics",
  VOLUME = 21,
  NUMBER = "3/4",
  YEAR = 1982,
  PAGES = "219-253" }

@ARTICLE{likh,
  AUTHOR = "K. K. Likharev",
  TITLE = "Classical and Quantum Limitations on Energy Consumption in
  Computation",
  JOURNAL = "International Journal of Theoretical Physics",
  VOLUME = 21,
  NUMBER = "3/4",
  YEAR = 1982,
  PAGES = "311-325" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{bak,
  AUTHOR = "H. G. Baker",
  TITLE = "{NREVERSAL} of Fortune --- The Thermodynamics of Garbage Collection",
  BOOKTITLE = "International Workshop on Memory Management",
  EDITOR = "Y. Bekkers",
  PUBLISHER = "Springer-Verlag",
  YEAR = 1992,
  PAGES = "507-524" }

@UNPUBLISHED{shor,
  AUTHOR = "P. W. Shor",
  YEAR = "1994",
  TITLE = "Algorithms for Quantum Computation: Discrete Log and Factoring",
  NOTE = "To appear, ACM 1994 Symposium on the Theory of Computers" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{ka,
  AUTHOR = "J. G. Koller and W. C. Athas",
  TITLE = "Adiabatic Switching, Low Energy Computing, and the Physics of
  Storing and Erasing Information",
  BOOKTITLE = "Physics of Computation Workshop",
  YEAR = 1992 }

@INPROCEEDINGS{hin,
  AUTHOR = "R. T. Hinman and M. F. Schlecht",
  TITLE = "Recovered Energy Logic:  A single Clock {AC} Logic",
  BOOKTITLE = "International Workshop on Low Power Design",
  YEAR = 1994,
  PAGES = "153-158" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{denk,
  AUTHOR = "J. S. Denker and S. C. Avery and A. G. Dickinson and A. Kramer
  and T. R. Wik",
  TITLE = "Adiabatic Computing with the {2N-2N2D} Logic Family",
  BOOKTITLE = "International Workshop on Low Power Design",
  YEAR = 1994,
  PAGES = "183-187" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{hall1,
  AUTHOR = "Hall, J. Storrs",
  TITLE = "An Electroid Switching Model for Reversible Computer
  Architectures", 
  BOOKTITLE = "Physics and Computation",
  MONTH = "October",
  PAGES = "237-247",
  YEAR = 1992 }

@INPROCEEDINGS{hall2,
  AUTHOR = "J. Storrs Hall",
  TITLE = "A Reversible Instruction Set Architecture and Algorithms",
  BOOKTITLE = "Physics and Computation",
  MONTH = "November",
  YEAR = 1994,
  PAGES = "128-134" }
% Retractile cascades. Reverse branch (``Come-from'') instructions.

@BOOK{ph1,
  AUTHOR = "D. A. Patterson and J. L. Hennessy",
  TITLE = "Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach",
  PUBLISHER = "Morgan Kaufmann",
  ADDRESS = "San Mateo",
  YEAR = 1990 }

@BOOK{ph2,
  AUTHOR = "D. A. Patterson and J. L. Hennessy",
  TITLE = "Computer Organization \& Design:  The Hardware/Software
  Interface",
  PUBLISHER = "Morgan Kaufmann",
  YEAR = "1993",
  ADDRESS = "San Mateo"}

@BOOK{ph2b,
  AUTHOR = "D. A. Patterson and J. L. Hennessy",
  TITLE = "Computer Organization \& Design:  The Hardware/Software
  Interface",
  PUBLISHER = "Morgan Kaufmann",
  YEAR = "1993",
  ADDRESS = "San Mateo",
  EDITION = "BETA",
  NOTE = "From Uncorrected Preliminary Manuscript" }

@ARTICLE{way,
  AUTHOR = "Wayner, P.",
  TITLE = "Silicon in Reverse",
  JOURNAL = "Byte",
  MONTH = "August",
  YEAR = "1994",
  PAGES = "67-74" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{merk,
  AUTHOR = "Ralph C. Merkle",
  TITLE = "Towards Practical Reversible Logic",
  BOOKTITLE = "Physics and Computation",
  MONTH = "October",
  YEAR = 1992,
  PAGES = "227-228" }

@INPROCEEDINGS{horo,
  AUTHOR = "T. Indermaur and M. Horowitz",
  TITLE = "Evaluation of Charge Recovery Circuits and Adiabatic Switching
  for Low Power {CMOS} Design",
  BOOKTITLE = "Low Power Electronics",
  YEAR = 1994,
  PAGES = "102-103" }

@BOOK{mips,
  AUTHOR = "Gerry Kane and Joe Heinrich",
  TITLE  = "{MIPS RISC} Architecture",
  PUBLISHER = "Prentice Hall",
  YEAR = 1992,
  }

@MastersThesis{vieri,
  AUTHOR = "Carlin J. Vieri",
  TITLE = "Pendulum:  A Reversible Computer Architecture",
  SCHOOL = "MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory",
  YEAR = 1995 }

@INPROCEEDINGS{sol,
  AUTHOR = "Paul M. Solomon and David J. Frank",
  TITLE = "Power Measurements of Adiabatic circuits by thermoelectric
  technique", 
  BOOKTITLE = "Symposium on Low Power Electronics",
  YEAR = 1995,
  PAGES = "18-19"}

@ARTICLE{chuang,
  AUTHOR = "Isaac L. Chuang and Yoshihisa Yamamoto",
  TITLE = "Quantum Bit Regeneration",
  JOURNAL = "(unknown journal)",
  MONTH = "September",
  YEAR = "1995"}

@incollection{neu,
  AUTHOR = "J von Neumann",
  title = "(unknown chapter)",
  bookTITLE = "Theory of Self-Reproducing Automata",
  EDITOR = "Arthur Burks",
  PUBLISHER = "University of Illinois Press",
  YEAR = 1966,
  PAGE = 66}

@ARTICLE{levine,
  AUTHOR = "Robert Y. Levine and Alan T. Sherman",
  TITLE = "A Note on Bennett's Time-Space Tradeoff for Reversible Computation",
  JOURNAL = "Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics Journal on
  Computing",
  VOLUME = 19,
  YEAR = 1990,
  NUMBER = 4,
  PAGES = "673-677" }

@InProceedings{LiV96a,
  author = 	 "Ming Li and Paul M.~B. Vit\'anyi",
  title = 	 "Reversible Simulation of Irreversible Computation",
  booktitle =	 "Proc. 11th IEEE Conference on Computational Complexity",
  year =	 1996,
  address =	 "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania",
  month =	 may#" 24--27,",
  annote =       {Shows that Bennett's algorithm is optimal among algs
                  that work by saving checkpoints and undoing},
}

@Article{LiV96b,
  author = 	 "Ming Li and Paul M.~B. Vit\'anyi",
  title = 	 "Reversibility and adiabatic computation: trading
		  time and space for energy",
  journal =	 "Proc. Royal Society of London, Series A",
  year =	 1996,
  volume =	 452,
  pages =	 "1--21",
  annote =	 "Includes LiV96a results and shows you can also
                  do optimal Kolmogorov compression before discarding data"
}


----------------------------------------------------------
Peter Bishop, Adelard, 3 Coborn Rd, London E3 2DA, England
Tel  : +44-181-983-0219              Fax: +44-181-983-1845
Email: pgb@adelard.co.uk



From: wilbaden@netcom.com (W.Baden)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Message-ID: <wilbadenDpK8MI.849@netcom.com>
References: <4kbb00$1mbc@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com> <4kbjej$glb@work.smurf.noris.de>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:23:06 GMT

The great paradox of Forth is that the language depends on stack
manipulation but the repertoire of stack operations is meagre.

Meagre, but sufficient.

Only the following are required:

DROP DUP OVER ROT SWAP 2DROP 2DUP 2OVER 2SWAP >R R@ R>

These are more than enough to do anything you want with the stack.

The Standard optionally allows:

NIP PICK ROLL TUCK /STRING 2ROT 2>R 2R@ 2R>

Part of the Art of Forth is minimizing stack operations, in
particular avoiding the optional ones.  

With most definitions this is not a problem.

Forth is optimized for definitions with one to three arguments.
Even three can often be a pain.  But the majority of definitions
don't need more.  This is so for profane languages as well.

Whenever something changes the order or nature of what's on the
stack, a stack comment is necessary.  With such a comment you
don't need additional stack operations.  These changes should be
infrequent.  Optimizing SWAP ROT or ROT ROT etc should be left to
the compiler.

: SUM-OF-SQUARES   ( lower_limit higher_limit -- sum_of_squares )
      1+   SWAP                     ( higher_limit+1 lower_limit)
      0 ROT ROT                     ( sum higher_limit+1 lower_limit)
      DO ( sum) I DUP * +   LOOP    ( sum_of_squares)
;

Thanks to Standard Forth, for me to program fluently I also
want to have available 3DUPÊ3DROP 4DUP 4DROP BOUNDS UNDER+ R!
R+! disdaining only 2ROT and ROLL.  The Ancient Grand Masters
disdain all of these.

The Standard has increased the number of basic words needing
three or more arguments.  For instance, if you're going to
massage character strings the stigma on PICK should be removed
for the sake of writing readable code.

If you mix Forth with profane language, the disdained words will
be very helpful.

Local variables are not an option for me.  Forth with local
variables is Tiny C with Postfix Operators.

Don't change the Forth language.  Change the compiler.
--
Procedamus in pace.      Wil Baden   Costa Mesa, California


From: wbaguhn@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Will Baguhn)
Subject: Re: Help Please Fig Forth question from Forth beginner
Date: 9 Apr 1996 07:32:28 -0600
Message-ID: <4kdotc$2it@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net>

In article <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net>,
Mike Gill  <ak32@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Anyone Help Please !
>
>How can I assemble a number from a keyboard into a variable.
>There are commands for incrementing variables, but what I need is to tye a 
>number at the keypad i.e. 123 and have 123 stored in the variable.
>
>Any advice appreciated
>
>Mike
>ak32@dial.pipex.com (UK)
>

I'm going to skip a lot of the detail.  Basically, you fetch a keystroke and
determine it's a valid digit in the current base.  Multiply your "accumulator"
by the current base.  add the digit to the accumulator.  that's it.

backspacing is easily accomplished as well.  take accumulator, divide it
by the base. (this may only work in integer, but that's the only kind of
system i use.  ;) )


From: Mike Gill <ak32@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Help Please Fig Forth question from Forth beginner
Date: 9 Apr 1996 14:05:09 GMT
Message-ID: <4kdqql$2f@soap.news.pipex.net>
References: <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net> <4kdotc$2it@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; I; 16bit)

Thanks Will,

This is the way that I have been trying to do it, but its nice to know 
that I am on the right track. Not being as yet Forth minded, I am probably 
doing something back to front.

Mike


From: Timothy Ressel,Non,HP,Unkn <tressel@metro.sr.hp.com>
Subject: Home Automation Forth
Date: 9 Apr 1996 14:22:06 GMT
Message-ID: <4kdrqe$skn@canyon.sr.hp.com>

Anyone interested in a Forth which is customized for home automation? It has
some nice features which make it quick and easy to program in. For example,
my dampered HVAC code took a day to write and debug.

-- Timster

From: mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Date: 9 Apr 1996 13:34:23 GMT
Message-ID: <4kdp0v$jm3@life.ai.mit.edu>
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <DpAKJB.Kqy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960405112338.28958A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>,
James P. Meyer <jimbob@acpub.duke.edu> wrote:
>	I've never seen the insides of the Jupiter Ace, but the outsides 
>bear a strong family resembalance to the Sinclair ZX-80/81.  Is there a 
>chance that the ROM is the only difference between the machines?  In 
>other words, if you posted the contents of a Jupiter's ROM, could I burn 
>a replacement for my TS-1000 that would turn it into an Ace?
>
>	How about posting the ROM contents anyway, just in case.
>
   The Jupiter ACE almost certainly does not use the same
circuitry as the Sinclair ZX-80/81. When Sinclair was first
producing the ZX-80, another company made a computer that
was a copy of the Sinclair circuit. This resulted in a lawsuit
which Sinclair won. Thus the ACE had to be made differently to
avoid the same lawsuit.

   There was a Forth ROM made for the ZX-81/TS-1000 which 
appeared at the very end of the useful life of the machine.
Its author did not make nearly enough money to pay for his
efforts. This code is copyrighted and could not be posted
without permission.

   But why try to resurect the Jupiter ACE? It was a poor design
even for its time. It used a cassette tape for storage which is
totally unreliable and exceedingly slow. It did not even have
a RAM socket that could use 32kx8 static RAM chips which were
not available at the time but which were annoumced and could
be designed for. It would be much better to design a whole
new board for a modern processor and scsi disk drives. This
could be a very simple design and low cost since there would
be no need to be compatable with any currently popular giant
operating system. Such a project could also be properly 
documented for whatever purpose it was intended.

   Eventually we will have a real Forth chip to use in such
a project, and it will make using something like a Z-80
completely silly.

-- 
   Michael Coughlin      mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu      Cambridge, MA USA

From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk (Pete Fenelon)
Subject: Re: WTB: Jupiter Ace
Message-ID: <829063871.13444@minster.york.ac.uk>
Date: 9 Apr 1996 15:31:11 GMT
References: <4jp2uf$aqh@info-server.surrey.ac.uk> <4kdp0v$jm3@life.ai.mit.edu>

On 9 Apr 1996 13:34:23 GMT, Mike Coughlin wrote:

>    But why try to resurect the Jupiter ACE? It was a poor design
> even for its time. 

Indeed -- but retrocomputing dictates that the cheesier the machine, the
more desirable it is.

pete (who last used the very nice Bradley Software ForthMacs system on an
      Atari ST in about 1990)

--
Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group,
Dep't of Computer Science, University of York, York, YO1 5DD (+44 1904 433388)
Mail: pete.fenelon@minster.york.ac.uk & http://dcpu1.cs.york.ac.uk:6666/~pete/

From: toma@wu.cse.tek.com (Thomas Almy)
Subject: Re: Reversible Forth?
Date: 9 Apr 1996 16:49:55 GMT
Message-ID: <4ke4fj$qsf@tekadm1.cse.tek.com>
References: <4k9rss$ksj@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <AD8F293D9668549F@charlton.demon.co.uk> <yw0rag0mcubv.fsf@crchha99.nortel.com>
Reply-To: tom.almy@tek.com


This sort of facility is not the joke one might first expect. I used a version
of LISP back in 1972 that had a backtracking facility like this that was
terrific for puzzle solving. It consisted of two functions. The first was
an N-way branch which contained alternative actions, and the second was a 
"fail" function. When you executed "fail" the program would backtrack to the
closest branch and take the next alternative. If it ran out of alternatives,
then that branch would in turn fail and execution would go back to a previous
branch. 

It looks alot like catch/throw (which is available in both ANS Forth and
in Common Lisp) *however* it also undid side effects such as assignment to
variables. In Forth this could be handled by new defining words for variables
that need to be backtracked. These defining words would link all such areas
together so that the branch could save the variables somewhere.


--
Tom Almy -- tom.almy@tek.com
Standard Disclaimers Apply, including:
  "Any ideas or opinions expressed here do not necessarily
   reflect the ideas or opinions of my employer."

From: M.L.Gassanenko <mlg@iias.spb.su>
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 9 Apr 1996 20:42:08 +0400
Message-ID: <AAw7eQnCD6@ttpl.iias.spb.su>
X-Return-Path: ttpl!ttpl.iias.spb.su!mlg

"Bruce R. McFarling" <ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>   MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong) wrote:
...
>   >: SPIN  ( x1 x2 x3 -- x3 x2 x1 )
>   >   SWAP ROT ;
>
>           Is this a common name for this operation? It's one of the
>   primitive is use, e.g., to define ROT, except I called it FLIP.
>
>   : ROT ( x1 x2 x3 -- x2 x3 x1 )
>   \  ROTate the 3rd stack item to the top, pushing the top 2 items down
>   \
>           SWAP FLIP
>   ;
....
>
>           But should I call it SPIN? Or SWAP3? Or something else?

I call it REV ---from REVerse or REVolve.

REV ( a b c -- c b a )

I have noticed that it can
be used frequently---if you got used to it. (I mean that e.g. when
I read about TUCK the 1st time, I could not mention cases where I could
use it when I was writing a program. I mentioned them only re-reading my
code. Later I got used to this word and now I mention cases where
it can be used.)

Another such word is

UDUP ( a b -- a a b )

--- 
M.L.Gassanenko
mlg@iias.spb.su   gml@agspbu.spb.su
 

From: Elizabeth Rather <erather@forth.com>
Subject: Re: Comments about comments (was: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-")
Date: 9 Apr 1996 16:54:22 GMT
Message-ID: <4ke4nu$il4@argentina.it.earthlink.net>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com> <4k7sfl$e0e@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <31694864.7C07@forth.com> <AD8F6457966837750@charlton.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12(Macintosh; I; 68K)
X-URL: news:AD8F6457966837750@charlton.demon.co.uk

gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk (Gordon Charlton) wrote:
>Surely the best approach is to figure out how you would like code displayed
>whilst developing it, and write an editor around that. Sure - save the code
>to disk as a text file if that makes the world happy - it shouldn't hinder
>layered modularity, and will release programmers from the fixed size of
>modules determined by the block structure.

Precisely what we did...the displayed/editable/modular form is called
"blocks" ;-)

Elizabeth D. Rather
FORTH, Inc.                 Products and services for
111 N. Sepulveda Blvd.      professional Forth programmers
Manhattan Beach, CA  90266  since 1973.  See us at:
310-372-8493/fax 318-7130   http://home.earthlink.net/~forth/



From: MABS85B@prodigy.com (Leo Wong)
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 9 Apr 1996 16:58:36 GMT
Message-ID: <4ke4vs$1la8@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>

\ size of an address unit, cell, character

\ display the number of bits in an address unit
\ see ANS Forth document for other query strings
: ADDRESS>BITS  ( -- )
   S" ADDRESS-UNITS-BITS" 
   ENVIRONMENT? IF  U.  ELSE  ." Query not answered."  THEN ;

\ display the number of address units in a cell
: CELL>ADDRESSES  ( -- )  
   1 CELLS  U. ;

\ display the number of address units in a character
: CHAR>ADDRESSES  ( -- )  
   0 CHAR+  U. ;

\ a counting tool
: UNDER+  ( n1 n2 n3 -- n1+n3 n2 )
   ROT + SWAP ;

\ highest on-bit in x
: HI-BIT  ( x -- u )
   0 SWAP  BEGIN ?DUP WHILE  1 RSHIFT  1 UNDER+  REPEAT ;

\ display the number of bits in a cell
: CELL>BITS  ( -- )  
   TRUE HI-BIT  U. ;

\ display the number of bits in a character
: CHAR>BITS  ( -- )
   TRUE HERE C!  HERE C@  HI-BIT  U. ;


\ Leo Wong



From: M.L.Gassanenko <mlg@iias.spb.su>
Subject: Re: 0123 Forth
Date: 9 Apr 1996 21:41:30 +0400
Message-ID: <AAwMfQnCD6@ttpl.iias.spb.su>
X-Return-Path: ttpl!ttpl.iias.spb.su!mlg


>   For instance, I would use : %123 SWAP ROT ; for SPIN (the TOS is number
>   one). TUCK ( x1 x2 -- x2 x1 x2 ) I'd name %121, and its inverse %-3.
>
>   remember whether ROT fetches the third item up or tucks the first item two
>   down (it's the former; -ROT usually does the latter)), so I just write %213
>   and %132 for them.

I do similar things when I have to write in English and cannot remember
a word: I use a word from another language. But in my final version
I usually podchishchaju such words.

I do not think that %11 %12 %-1 is more readable
than dup swap drop for a Forth reader.

I think that when stack manipulations are a problem, the best way is
to acquire an intuitive feeling of "the last" element and of performing
actions with "the last elements". One of the possible ways is to
abstract from the notion of stack and to consider operations as just
words of a language: e.g. SWAP changes the meaning of -
in the phrase SWAP - .

The % signs and digits break my feeling of "the last elements"
(and more, I have to name and rename the values),
I feel that I have to think about what had been easy, so I do not
like the %231 %231 notation.

Which is true:
: %123  %132 %12 ;
or
: %123  %231 %12 ;
or
: %123  %12 %231 ;
?


>   ... stack permutations are damn difficult
>   to get right if you have something entirely different in mind ...

You have not to understand the algorithm and the stack manipulations
at the same time. The algorithm steps are denoted by meaningful words
(like <<DATA ?OVERFLOW RDWAIT , which tell almost nothing to anybody
who does not know the problem but knows Forth), while the connections
between them are performed by auxiliary (and almost never meaningful
from the algorithm point of view) DUPs, ROTs, etc.
So, understand it in 2 passes! (To do this, you have to read it in 2 passes).

--- 
M.L.Gassanenko
mlg@iias.spb.su   gml@agspbu.spb.su
 

From: elvey@hal.COM (Dwight Elvey)
Subject: Re: Comments about comments (was: "Show-Tell-Straight-Narrow-")
Date: 9 Apr 1996 22:36:39 GMT
Message-ID: <4keopo$5m7@news.hal.com>
References: <wilbadenDp98Cn.MAJ@netcom.com> <4jui0k$9ra@news.wco.com> <31640D7C.5872@forth.com> <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com>

In article <3164E823.4F4A@immersive.com>, Marc de Groot <marc@immersive.com> writes:
..... stuff ......
|> 
|> : FOO  ( n -- m )   \  Transforms n to m        
|>      X              \  Get address of X            \
|>      +              \  Add n to X                  \
|>      @              \  Fetch content of (X+n)      \ Frob n for purposes of blah blah...
|> ;
|> 

Hi
 I'll have to add my two cents. I think this is bad
commenting and not vary readable. It shows the classic
redundent comments that I consider to be a waste of time
for both the programmer and the one reading the code.
I do agree that the vertical coding is good but one should
still try to keep in mind that each line should be a
sentence or pharse. Not only that, but the name of
the word is not vary good either. Even "X" shows a lack
of meaning. If these kinds of examples are used as
an indication of good quality code, we will have earned
the un-readable label. The first rule of comments
is, they should never be redundent. The second line
with "\  Get address of X " is only exceptable because
of the poor naming of "X". The third line " \  Add n to X "
is completely redundent and misleading. The last line
" \  Fetch content of (X+n)" is clearly a redundant restating
of "X + @" and only has meaning to someone that has never
seen Forth. This last comment would have been more appropriate
on the first line if at all.
 I'll try to show what I mean:

Assumes a lookup table to get a customer number from a PO#.

: PO#>Cust# ( PO# - CustomerNumber )
   PO#>Cust#Table + @ ;  \ Translate PO# to Customer#

One might then apply this to some other function that displayed
the customers address from the PO#:

: .CustAddr ( CustomerNumber - )
   CustAddrStrings + @      \ Get mail address string
   count type ;

: PO#>MailAddr ( PO# - )
   PO#>Cust#
   DUP .CustName CR
       .CustAddr ;

One might notice the lack of comments in that last code. This
was done because there was nothing that wasn't redundent that
I could think to say about the code that it didn't clearly say
itself. Adding redundent comments would not have made to code
any clearer to all but a beginner. I would hope that anyone
reading my code would only be a beginner for a short time.
You may also notice the way I indented the two "." words to
be over each other. This tends to group the thoughts so that
one tends to see them as similar or continuing functions
of similar levels. Use of white space is important. When
it works best if it is left white then leave it white.
Programs should be a story. If there is some part of the
story that wouldn't normally make sense then add a clear comment.
 A month back, I submitted the following piece of assembly
code to show that comments can be a vary important part
of a program. If one was to only put the redundent comments
one would still be lost with the following:

\ Input AX
\ Output AX
\ Effected DX & flags

MOV DX, AX        \ Mov AX to DX
AND DX, # $4002   \ Mask of DX
DEC DX            \ Decrement DX
SUB DX, # $4000   \ Subtract high part
SBB DX, DX        \ Subtract with barrow
AND DX, # $4002   \ Mask DX again
XOR AX, DX        \ Xor result
RET

As you can clearly see, the comments tell vary little
of what this interesting piece of code does. The challenge
was to put an appropriate name on the routine and
add meaningful comments. ( No fair having SVFIG members
who know the answer cheat here )
Dwight



From: Brad Rodriguez <bj@headwaters.com>
Subject: Re: Help Please Fig Forth question from Forth beginner
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 06:11:55 -0700
Message-ID: <316A621B.36D7@headwaters.com>
References: <4kb7vd$phg@soap.news.pipex.net> <yw0rbul2d7gr.fsf@crchha99.nortel.com> <4kd2uf$lg5@soap.news.pipex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)

Mike Gill wrote:
> The idea is to store numbers in a
> variable as typed and not as a complete number. To take the example 123,
> 1st keypress would store 1, second keypress would store 2 (making 12 not
> 3) third keypress would store 3 (making 123 not 6 as would simply adding
> them together do). 

Assuming you have a word GET-DIGIT which reads a key and returns a number 
from 0 to 10...

0 VARIABLE ACCUMULATOR     \ the '0' is required in FIG-Forth
: ACCUMULATE-DIGIT
    ACCUMULATOR @ 10 *  GET-DIGIT +  ACCUMULATOR ! ;
: 4-DIGITS
    0 ACCUMULATOR !
    4 0 DO  ACCUMULATE-DIGIT  LOOP ;

This neglects the problem of terminating when a non-digit is entered.

-- 
Brad Rodriguez    bj@headwaters.com        Computers on the Small Scale
Contributing Editor, The Computer Journal... http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Director, Forth Interest Group........... http://www.forth.org/fig.html
    1996 Rochester Forth Conference: June 19-22 in Toronto, Ontario
             http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html