Minutes of the guest RT Conference on the GEnie Forth RoundTable with guests Steve Roberts,John Bumgarner,and Terry Holmes. The topic: Steve's high-tech bike, the laptop that operates it and the tForth token threaded Forth operating system. Date: 06/08/89 Time: 22:22EDT Attendees: [[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2] [[Gary] GARY-S] [[John&Terry] PRESS3] [[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS] [[rick] R.MUSE3] [D.WRIGHT14] [[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN] [[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1] [M.CHRISTOPH2] [S.R.MCINTOSH] [K.MERTZENICH] [S.K.ORR] [[Lee] L.BROTZMAN] Minutes: <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Been looking at the New Micros parts again... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> might use them for satellite processors <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> have you used them? <[Gary] GARY-S> I can tell you who has - Ken Butterfield in Los Almos and Jon Bryan in Albuquerque - I can give you Jon's phone # <[Gary] GARY-S> I can also tell you Randy Dumse (NMI) does SUPPORT his customers <[Gary] GARY-S> brb <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> OK... (I've spoken to Randy before... he sent me a chip 2 years ago) <[Gary] GARY-S> I've got Ken's ARPANET address if you have access to Usenet/Arpanet/Compunet/Bitnet <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Are you on a Cat? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> yup, we are on a Cat <[Gary] GARY-S> When will the laptop be available ? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> 1q90 <[Gary] GARY-S> what the hell is a 1q90 <[John&Terry] PRESS3> first quarter 1990 <[Gary] GARY-S> gotcha is here. is wordy here? <[Gary] GARY-S> yes <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> I am! Hi there! <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> need a board with Forth on it? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Wellll... I have at least one coming <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> we have *two* coming. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Considering the NMI 68HC11s for satellites <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> .. :-) <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Jax... you are making boards??? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> yep, Vesta Technology in Colorado. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> makers of fine SBC's with resident ROM Forth. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Sounds interesting. What's the processor? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 8088 V20 80188 and next 68008/68000 <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> ( 68008 will be ~$200 and 68000 ~$400 ) <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> oops ~$300! <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Which FORTH? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 32-bit L&P lookalike, but direct-threaded with rommable autoboot applications. <[John&Terry] PRESS3> sure <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Host disking via AMiga or IBM PC/XT/AT <[rick] R.MUSE3> steve will this rtable be available for download later? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Power requirements? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> +5 <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> current? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Rick... probably... Gary? Will it? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> not sure, can find out tomorrow. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> light. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> . <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Rick... I'm trying to remember what you do... we've corresponded, but I don't recall yer biz. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> uP + DUART + 128 ROM 64 RAM + edge connector + watchdog on 68008 <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> same but 128 RAM on 68000. <[rick] R.MUSE3> I'm a a programmer for Levi"s <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Jax... sounds like an interesting product. For embedded control and the like? How are you marketing? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> mail VESTA here on GEnie w/name,address for info packet on current line. is here. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Rick... ah. Designer genes? Molecular Biology? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 68k's built and Forthed but not yet productized. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Am programming them now in custom projects. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Hi Dave! <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> . <[rick] R.MUSE3> ahhhhhhhhh yes .. gotta go.. good luck Hi <[Gary] GARY-S> Yes Steve - the file should be posted tomorrow - Winnebik.TXT and Winnebik.ARC <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Dave... meet jax -- he's doing FORTH controller boards. And John and Terry are here, live from IA. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Everyone, meet Dave Wright. Tekwiz. <[Gary] GARY-S> welcome to the Forth RT <[Gary] GARY-S> LETS do it gang Hi folks, upcoming FORTH projects, need advice ! <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Gary... no more people expected??? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> They drift in. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> some show up at closing. <[Gary] GARY-S> Steve - we just have to go and let the stragglers straggle <[Gary] GARY-S> anyway - lets get started <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> ok <[Gary] GARY-S> Before we begin tonight's conference I need to remind ... <[Gary] GARY-S> everyone this is a formal conference. .. .. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> That means NO interlacing. Request a turn to speak by typing ... <[Gary] GARY-S> !! or /RAI . I will keep a list and call on whoever .. <[Gary] GARY-S> is next. PLEASE follow these simple rules : ... <[Gary] GARY-S> PLEASE make your first response ok (so we know YOU know). . <[Gary] GARY-S> Then, keep your lines short, ending incomplete thoughts ... <[Gary] GARY-S> with three dots (...) and ending your question/statement with ga . <[Gary] GARY-S> thank you. <[Gary] GARY-S> The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome... <[Gary] GARY-S> Steve Roberts, a high-tech nomad and freelance writer... <[Gary] GARY-S> who sold his surburban Ohio home in 1983 and began touring America... <[Gary] GARY-S> on a computerized recumbant bicycle with a handlebar keyboard, . <[Gary] GARY-S> solar powered on-board computers and on-line net-working. The laptop... is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> (soon commercially available) is the work of Information Appliance Inc.. <[Gary] GARY-S> which John Bumgarner co-founded. John has a degree in Astronomy and has... is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> been an engineer/programme 30 years, 10 n Foth inclding a stint. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> at Forth,Inc with Charles Moore. He also chaired Forth Standards. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> The computer is programmed in tForth, a token threaded... <[Gary] GARY-S> Forth. The author is Terry Holmes. tForth is a 32 bit Forth and. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> is the heart of the Cannon Cat (ask about the Cat/tForth assm deal). tForth... <[Gary] GARY-S> uses the 'TO' and 'INTEGER' solutions. .. .. Steve, John, Terry welcome ... <[Gary] GARY-S> and thanks for comming this evening. .. .. .. .. ga Steve <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Thanks Gary.... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> And hi all. <[John&Terry] PRESS3> hi also from us <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> You probably already know about the Winnebiko... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> So I won't go into much detail on the general stuff... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> lifestyle, solar, etc. The emphasis here is on the control... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> system, and I'm delighted to have with me (electronically)... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> John and Terry... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> who can answer the substantial questions about the new FORTH.. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> laptop and the details of its implementation... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Essentially, I am using this machine... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> as the hub of a real-time control environment in the new bike... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> in charge of a large "resource bus" that carries all audio,... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> serial, and digital infor int he bike. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Questions so far? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> ga is here. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> When will you start needing software for the Winnebiko? (i. e. Request for Qizards) <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Soon... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> as soon as the machine is running. Actually, I have ... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> the older desktop model of similar machine, but am happiest... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> developing on the actual machine that will be used. I haven't... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> forgotten your offer! :-) GA <[Gary] GARY-S> John mentioned a deal for the Cat and unattached software .. <[Gary] GARY-S> details please <[John&Terry] PRESS3> well ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> the cat used to be ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> on sale a service merchandise <[John&Terry] PRESS3> but ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> they sold out!!! <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> John, have you folks looked further into ... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> the idea of markeing the Swyft laptop into the embedded control market? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> no we are doing the laptop... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> and it takes all we have <[John&Terry] PRESS3> just to do this What is the bike for, cross country travel? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Yes... I've done about 16,000 miles so far... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> the machine is a computerized recumbent with solar panels, handlebar... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> keyboard, ham station, etc... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Been living on it, writing to pay my way, since 1983.... And the satelite is your nav system? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> and there are more and more applications for real-time processing... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> including airflow modeling (well, effective frontal area, anyway), <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> transmission control, solar charge and batt mgmt, keyboard processing, <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> and control of the whole on-board network (which includes... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> RF links to the backpack and a gateway out thru celphone and ham <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> datalinks. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> sounds like ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> you guys are believers ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> in advice attributed to Chuck Moore ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> that each new project deserves its own new Forth system! <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> How big are teams in your projects ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> and how are you doing with passing maintance chores ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> on to new team members? is here. <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Gee... you make it sound like this is formal... I'm... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> just a poor cyclist trying to get my bike ready for the road. ... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Actually, I am gettingother people involved... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> in a classic repudiation of the old adage that adding people... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> increases the project length. ... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> The bike itself is my own project... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> with help from a few friends (like D.WRIGHT here).... <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> the FORTH laptop project, however, is Information Appliance. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not quite Jax. Each new Forth toy requires a programmer to develop a use for it. You have it backwards. :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> that was it dave ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep. I just wasn't in an interleaving mood. :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> John - you were instrumental in F-83 - have you abandoned standards <[John&Terry] PRESS3> yes, if they don't apply <[John&Terry] PRESS3> our forth was designed for ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> a 32 bit processor and ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> address space ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> also to make very compact code <[Gary] GARY-S> You did learn from Chuck Moore :-) <[John&Terry] PRESS3> John did <[Gary] GARY-S> The laptop will be commercially available ? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> yes ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> about $<700 and 1st q 90 is here. what 32bit processor? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> 68000 <[Gary] GARY-S> plain 68K <[John&Terry] PRESS3> yes ... ive been working with the 386 and i love all the room! <[John&Terry] PRESS3> 8 mhz 256 kb rom 128 kb ram 640X200 display <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> 386 == power-hungry! This is a laptop <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Come on Steve. Everyone needs a 486 clustered with three or four i860s and a color 2048x2048 display! :-) is this the bike i saw in the 4th dim mag? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> !!! You did? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Hard to say.. I don't know about the story. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes ... maybe it wasn't there but i saw it metioned in an article or maybe on tv somewhere <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> I wsas thinking a Sparcstation <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Probably... recumbent with solar panels and a control console. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> why dork around with INTEGER and VALUE or whatever? Whats wrong with @ and !? <[Gary] GARY-S> What about the INTEGER and TO solutions ? <[Steve(Wordy)] PRESS2> Q for John & Terry <[John&Terry] PRESS3> we have @ and !, can't ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> do without them ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> but ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> variables and constants ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> !! <[Gary] GARY-S> Do these follow the versions outlined in FD ? <[John&Terry] PRESS3> well I don't know ... but ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> here is an example ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> 123 integer qwe <[John&Terry] PRESS3> 5 integer asd <[John&Terry] PRESS3> asd . 5 <[John&Terry] PRESS3> asd qwe + asd to <[John&Terry] PRESS3> asd . 128 <[John&Terry] PRESS3> did all ... <[John&Terry] PRESS3> the arithmetic come through? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> So ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Are you saying you use INTEGER for the syntactic sugar ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> or have you tuned your compiler to offer an execution speed advantage for such ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> ( keeping in mind that optimizing JSR Forths for 68k ..