Minutes of the FIGGY BAR with special guest Mike Perry Topic: 'Public Domain Forth and Open Systems' Date: 01/12/89 Time: 22:33EST Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS] [[Kevin] APPERT] [[mike] PRESS4] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [H.MARSHALL1] [KNOWLEDGE] Minutes: <[Gary] GARY-S> relax and chat a few is here. <[Kevin] APPERT> hi all <[mike] PRESS4> jax, how do you get here fromm the WELL? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> gars ... when will the transcript be up. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> mike, i get here by dialing, like everybody else. ... no direct connect avail. <[Gary] GARY-S> now, but the editor never sleeps - oh the transcript - tomorrow evening <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> mike --- i *wish* these proprietary soandsos would network. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> GEnie ain't interested in the world outside GEISCO. <[mike] PRESS4> They will, sooner or later is here. <[mike] PRESS4> I have used dozens of systems... <[Gary] GARY-S> not till it translates directly to dollar$ <[mike] PRESS4> Genie seems to be very clumsy. Why?? <[Gary] GARY-S> fortran <[mike] PRESS4> oh. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> It's written in fortran on a crisis management basis. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> They wait till it goes wrong and fix it. <[mike] PRESS4> Meaning it was written 30 years ago and is being maintained. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> In some ways it is very nice. <[Gary] GARY-S> It's a dataswitched for hire network and GEnie is strictly anciliary revenue <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> It is very predictable and anything that isn't pure ascii driven has all sorts of "Bridge out" signs around it for the unwary <[mike] PRESS4> alright, makes some sense. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> My revered father can use it. <[mike] PRESS4> But would he? <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Which is a testimony --- yes, he does --- to its communicability to the untutored. <[Gary] GARY-S> let's get rolling for real folks <[Gary] GARY-S> find a quitting place in the chat <[mike] PRESS4> ok <[Gary] GARY-S> Before we begin tonight's conference I need to remind... <[Gary] GARY-S> everyone this is a formal conference. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> thank you. <[Gary] GARY-S> The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome... <[Gary] GARY-S> as this evening's special guest, Mike Perry. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> Mike has actively contributed to the Forth community... <[Gary] GARY-S> as speaker or chair at both Rochester and FORML conferences... <[Gary] GARY-S> and as co-author with Henry Laxen of F-83. .... <[Gary] GARY-S> He is proprietor of Even-Odd Designs, a hardware... <[Gary] GARY-S> and software engineering design consulting firm. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> Mike's topic this evening is 'Public Domain Forth and ... <[Gary] GARY-S> Open Systems'.It is with pleasure I introduce Mike Perry. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga mike <[mike] PRESS4> I have benefitted enormously from the work... <[mike] PRESS4> of many other people. I have come to believe strongly ... <[mike] PRESS4> in the value of open systems. I want, and even need, to have complete ... <[mike] PRESS4> control over my tools. Sharing code and avoiding secrets are essential ... <[mike] PRESS4> for productivity. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Mike, arguably no individual or group has had as much influence on the <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> *style* of Forth as your team including Henry Laxen, with the exception <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> of Chuck Moore. Did you imagine you were creating a "New York Times <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Stylebook of Forth" when you wrote F83? <[mike] PRESS4> well, not exactly that, but we did try to be consistent ... <[mike] PRESS4> and to proivide many examples. Hello all, I come with a FORTH question. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Follow up ... I have seen ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> F83 ported to everything from ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> the Super8 to the Amiga ( maybe you haven't seen the latter ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> it's here in the library as A4TH1.5 ) and interestingly ,,,, <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> a very consistent model is presented ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> and quite dependably at the highest level the definitions are the same ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> giving the lie to those who deride Forth as non-portable. ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> How is it that this portability ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> demonstrated by your PD system ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> has been almost totally excluded from most of the arguments about Forth and portability? <[mike] PRESS4> Good question ... <[mike] PRESS4> It was certainly no accident. .. <[mike] PRESS4> We worked hard for complete portability ... <[mike] PRESS4> between the three systems which we implemented. ... <[mike] PRESS4> That helped us to identify the problem areas and to address them. .. <[mike] PRESS4> I am surprised that people have adhered to the model. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> I guess ... <[Kevin] APPERT> the big question I have about public domain... <[Kevin] APPERT> is why people do it?... <[Kevin] APPERT> it can't be the bucks... <[Kevin] APPERT> is it the adulation of your peers? <[mike] PRESS4> Oh, yeah, well ... sure. Fame and Fortune, definitely. ... <[mike] PRESS4> Seriously, there were many reasons. ... <[mike] PRESS4> I had got a lot from the FIG systems, ... <[mike] PRESS4> and wanted to return the favor. The 83 Standard was new ... <[mike] PRESS4> and seemed to need the support that a model could provide. ... <[mike] PRESS4> Also, I was tired of seeing Forth lambasted in print ... <[mike] PRESS4> for the deficiencies of the FIG model ( no multitasking, etc). <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mike, there is a tradeoff between... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> portability and power. The minute you try to use... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> all the features of a system, you start to become incopatible... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with other systems. This problem also affects the standards efforts... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What are your views on this? <[mike] PRESS4> Sure. In the 83 standard, there is no NUMBER or INTERPRET. ... <[mike] PRESS4> You need either a larger common set of words, ... <[mike] PRESS4> or you pay the price of many dialects. <[Gary] GARY-S> Mike in light of the above... <[Gary] GARY-S> how do you view 83X and F-PC, with pride ? <[mike] PRESS4> Yes, very much so. F83X not so much, because we got more from Wil ... <[mike] PRESS4> than he ever got from us. Tom Zimmer and crew have done many of the ... <[mike] PRESS4> things I would have if I had the energy. <[Gary] GARY-S> Can you elaborate on the open systems point <[mike] PRESS4> In the old days I had total control of my systems. ... <[mike] PRESS4> I had accurate schematics, complete source, and so on. ... <[mike] PRESS4> When anything broke, I could and did fix it. <[mike] PRESS4> As systems eveolve to higher levels of complexity, we tend to lose ... <[mike] PRESS4> control , if only for economic reasons. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> ... for the record... <[Kevin] APPERT> the mutations and descendants... <[Kevin] APPERT> of f83 are legion... <[Kevin] APPERT> FORTHMacs for the Atari ST... <[Kevin] APPERT> sunforth... <[Kevin] APPERT> Cforth (blech)... <[Kevin] APPERT> did you guys have any idea... <[Kevin] APPERT> you would spawn so much? ga <[mike] PRESS4> No, not really, although we had seen FIG ported to dozens of machines. ... <[mike] PRESS4> And spawn many small companies. We tried to get FIG to adopt F83 ... <[mike] PRESS4> but the board of directors were nervous. We did try to make it portable... <[mike] PRESS4> and chose understandable over fast in several instances. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Mike, two questions: <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> ( hope nobody asked these while i was out of the room) has left. <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 1) what do you do for Forth these days yourself? What are your pet systems, and ... <[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 2) what is your vision for Forth in the world of parallel processing? <[mike] PRESS4> Mostly these days I find myself working on IBM Clones ... <[mike] PRESS4> using a remote descendent of F83. .. <[mike] PRESS4> When I can, I work on Forth engines or 68020's ... <[mike] PRESS4> again using newer f83's. <[mike] PRESS4> As for parallel, I have been thinking for a long time ... For those of us new to Forth, are there any good pubs that talk compilers? <[mike] PRESS4> about the nature of the Transputer ... <[mike] PRESS4> the Connection machine, and the Novix chip. .. <[mike] PRESS4> I am sure there is some common ground. <[Gary] GARY-S> 83 worked where 79 failed. Will ANS X3/J14 succeed in your view ? <[mike] PRESS4> Yes, I think it probably will. ... <[mike] PRESS4> The standards team is an experienced group, both ... <[mike] PRESS4> technically and politically. .. <[mike] PRESS4> There is some recognition of the need for extensions to the standard. ... <[mike] PRESS4> such as 32-bit, floating point, and graphics. ... <[mike] PRESS4> It would be useful if the standard toolbox ... <[mike] PRESS4> included at least as much as a BASIC system does. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mike, when you say Forth should include what BASIC does... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to what extent should it imitate the BASIC command set... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and to what extent should it vary from it? <[mike] PRESS4> Not at all. ... <[mike] PRESS4> Forth has its own way of doing things ... <[mike] PRESS4> and one of its great strengths is the ability ... <[mike] PRESS4> to taylor solutions to fit problems. However, ... <[mike] PRESS4> it is desirable to give people some easy way to do common ... <[mike] PRESS4> operations when they do not need something special, so that .. <[mike] PRESS4> it is not always neccessary to invent something basic before you ... <[mike] PRESS4> can do anything. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Would you include floating point in your list of tools ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that should be more or less universal? <[mike] PRESS4> Yes. It is very handy at times, and hard for beginners to add. . .. <[mike] PRESS4> It is also somewhat system dependent, as all numeric input is. <[Gary] GARY-S> Mike, do you concur with the growing number who feel we should (forthers) be.. <[Gary] GARY-S> versed in 'C' as well as Forth ? <[mike] PRESS4> Personally, I like to be well versed in as many languages ... <[mike] PRESS4> as I have time for. They all give me ideas of things to add to Forth! ... <[mike] PRESS4> C is valuable because it is very common, and you will be able to ... <[mike] PRESS4> talk to many more porgrammers if you can speak it. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> ... Mike said "... beginners..." <[Kevin] APPERT> beginners??? in FORTH???... <[Kevin] APPERT> I thought we all sprang full grown from the head of Zeus... <[Kevin] APPERT> or at least Chuck... <[Kevin] APPERT> but seriously... <[Kevin] APPERT> have you had much experience with people trying to port... <[Kevin] APPERT> a C or Fortran coding style to a Forth enviorment? <[Gary] GARY-S> et tu Mike ? ga <[mike] PRESS4> ok <[mike] PRESS4> Zeus? What an Apolloing idea ... <[Kevin] APPERT> gaaaaaaaaa <[Gary] GARY-S> Arrrgh <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ha ha heh heh <[mike] PRESS4> Seriously, ... <[mike] PRESS4> I have seen many styles imported into Forth, ... <[mike] PRESS4> not very successfully. I have also seen it work the other way .. <[mike] PRESS4> I know I guy who writes COBOL as if it were Forth ! <[Gary] GARY-S> What a break-point! Closing remarks please, Mike. <[mike] PRESS4> I am convinced that Forth will continue to be interesting ... <[mike] PRESS4> because so many new techniques and ideas are explored here ... <[mike] PRESS4> and that is possible in large part because we share our code and ideas. ... <[mike] PRESS4> Remember, we will only lose control of our machines if we give it away. <[mike] PRESS4> Let's hope Forth thrives, and Microsoft fades quietly away. <[mike] PRESS4> Thanks. <[Gary] GARY-S> Our next guest conference is with Randy Dumse of New Micros on February 9, 1989... <[Gary] GARY-S> Mike, on behalf of everyone on the GEnie Forth RoundTable... <[Gary] GARY-S> thank you for a very interesting evening... === End of Steno notes. ===