Minutes of The Forth RT Guest Conference. with Special Guest Dr. C. H. Ting. The topic is 'Forth and Zen' The minutes of the conference should be prefaced with GEnie Forth RT File #1279, PREZEN2.TXT to fully understand Dr. Ting's topic intent. Date: 10/27/88 Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[LEN] NMORGENSTERN] [[ting] PRESS17] [J.CAULFIELD] [J.R.BRYAN] [[Jack Woehr] VESTA] [[Jim] J.NELSON5] [[Kevin] APPERT] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[capslock] A.CRIDER] [R.BERKEY] [M.HAWLEY] Minutes: <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Juniper is going away tomorrow...no more Usenet link...sigh <[ting] PRESS17> It's nice to be here. <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> You're the only new face around here, Dr. Ting! This is usual "gang of idiots". <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> ...:-) <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> . is here. <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> The gang of usual idiots, you mean, Jax <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> <<< quoted MAD Magazine! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Or the gang of usually idiots <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> What, me program? <[Jim] J.NELSON5> yes gary sorry gary, the prob is the Sundays! <[Kevin] APPERT> what's in Prezen Ting? <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> how's business, jim? <[ting] PRESS17> Well, I do not trust electrons. That why I am so late in joining. is here. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Watch it Jax, or we'll force you to code your code in Cobol! <[Gary] GARY-S> geeze Dennis - I thought you were gone before the message <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Once I pasted some electrons together. I called it the Electoral Collage. <[Jim] J.NELSON5> stringy little beasts aren't they doctor Ting <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> Hi A.Crider! hello <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I don't want to talk about electrons...I have a Quantum Mech. quiz tomorrow....urgh <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> I have 21:30 are we starting? <[Gary] GARY-S> OK this is it <[Gary] GARY-S> EVERYONE Please - a few simple requests <[Gary] GARY-S> 1 don't interlace <[Gary] GARY-S> 2 please make ok your first response - Please <[Gary] GARY-S> 3 - end unfinished sentences with three dots... <[Gary] GARY-S> 4 - you got one question per turn... <[Gary] GARY-S> don't try to hog the floor... is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> Our special guest tonight on the GEnie Forth RoundTable... <[Gary] GARY-S> is Dr. C. H. Ting. His tiopic is Forth and Zen... <[Gary] GARY-S> ... <[Gary] GARY-S> Dr. Ting is a chemist by training and a computer specialist by . <[Gary] GARY-S> inclination. His specialty in chemistry was spectroscopy and... <[Gary] GARY-S> quantum chemistry. He abandoned chemistry in 1975... <[Gary] GARY-S> to pursue his new interest in electronics and computers... <[Gary] GARY-S> From 1976 to early this year he was a scientist at.. <[Gary] GARY-S> the Lockheed Palo Alto Research Labs... <[Gary] GARY-S> He is now at Maxtor, a San Jose disk Manufacturer... <[Gary] GARY-S> as a software engineer.. <[Gary] GARY-S> his interests include image processing, fast signal processing.. <[Gary] GARY-S> parallel processors , go game...and much more... <[Gary] GARY-S> On a more personal level Dr. Ting and Dr. George Nichols.. <[Gary] GARY-S> founded Software Composers to market... <[Gary] GARY-S> the NC4000 products... <[Gary] GARY-S> Dr. Nichols still operates the venture as Silicon Composers... <[Gary] GARY-S> Dr. Ting continues his prolific contributions to Forth... <[Gary] GARY-S> as a writer publishing under his own Offete lable... <[Gary] GARY-S> It is with great pleasure we welcome Dr. C. H. Ting... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga ting <[ting] PRESS17> Thank you, Gary... <[ting] PRESS17> Let me start by quoting Dr. Lin Yu-Tang... <[ting] PRESS17> a famous Chinese modern writer... <[ting] PRESS17> "A man's speech... <[ting] PRESS17> should be like girls' skirts... <[ting] PRESS17> None preferred... <[ting] PRESS17> If have to, the shorter the better. <[ting] PRESS17> ga Gary <[Gary] GARY-S> Those who have not.. <[Gary] GARY-S> read the file PREZEN2.TXT are... <[Gary] GARY-S> requested to do so to receive full.. <[Gary] GARY-S> benefit of Dr. Ting's topic intent... <[Gary] GARY-S> questions ? <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Dr. Ting, some time ago I believe that you made the intriguing comment ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> that the Super8 by Zilog had "caught on" in Taiwan. Do I remember your comment correctly? <[ting] PRESS17> Yes. I saw 4 boards working last Christmas... <[ting] PRESS17> They are using it to do many projects. <[Gary] GARY-S> examples please.. <[ting] PRESS17> Machine control... <[ting] PRESS17> Smart lock... <[ting] PRESS17> Digital scales... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Dave <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well...aside from numerous questions on quantum chemistry (why did I take that course?)... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I was wondering where you think Forth is going in the next 5 years... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> both in terms of the shape of the language... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> and its acceptance or lack thereof in industry? <[Gary] GARY-S> and reference this question to your Zen reference.. <[ting] PRESS17> I think it will be exactly where we are now... <[ting] PRESS17> Few loves it... <[ting] PRESS17> Many hate it... <[ting] PRESS17> Most just don't care... <[ting] PRESS17> But, we know it is the truth... <[ting] PRESS17> It will get faster as Forth chips become available... <[ting] PRESS17> but I don't think there will be significant difference. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev is here. <[Kevin] APPERT> Please comment on the ACM SIG and the ANSI standard effort. <[ting] PRESS17> It looks like Forth, Inc. was set out to ... <[ting] PRESS17> legitimize polyForth... <[ting] PRESS17> I welcome ACM... <[ting] PRESS17> but doubt it will make much impact. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga m.h is here. A pleasure to meet you here Dr. Ting ... Would you agree to my paraphrase of Lao Tzu ... The FORTH THAT can be named is not the true FORTH ?... <[ting] PRESS17> It is my pleasure, too. m.h... <[ting] PRESS17> No. I think Forth can be precisely named... <[ting] PRESS17> in my terms of course. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Sticking with the Old Man on the Water Buffalo for a moment ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Lao believed that it was a mistake to try ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> and "educate" the people. ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> C.MOORE, perhaps in the same vein ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> has said, "Maybe it would be better if not so many people used Forth." <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Comment? is here. <[ting] PRESS17> It is very confusing as to what Lao-Tzu really mean... <[ting] PRESS17> My point is that these people are political scientists... <[ting] PRESS17> including Confucius... <[ting] PRESS17> trying to get a job in a court... <[ting] PRESS17> We thought they are philosophers ... <[ting] PRESS17> and try to put words in their mouth... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Hawley Forth seems to have a myriad of forms, formless, changing... How much can/should it be standardized. <[ting] PRESS17> Forth captures the essence of computing... <[ting] PRESS17> In that, it is very solid... <[ting] PRESS17> I think we can all live with a minimal set of words... <[ting] PRESS17> as man-machine interface... <[ting] PRESS17> People can spent their time arguing the rest. <[Gary] GARY-S> Outside of the MPP at Goddard , do you see life for Forth... <[Gary] GARY-S> beyong controllers - many directed by 'C'.? <[ting] PRESS17> Yes. Many of the features in Forth... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> disconnected. <[ting] PRESS17> were adopted by other languages/OS... <[ting] PRESS17> More will do so... <[ting] PRESS17> because Forth is effective... <[ting] PRESS17> But they may not want to admit it... <[ting] PRESS17> Like Microsoft... <[ting] PRESS17> But we know where they came from . <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> We know we all love Forth ok <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> But why do so many hate it? <[ting] PRESS17> The problem is what I call false truth... <[ting] PRESS17> Other languages somehow can solve the same problem... <[ting] PRESS17> We do not havge the monopoly of solutions... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> "Forth is like sex, if it doesn't feel really good, you... <[Kevin] APPERT> must be doing it wrong"... <[Kevin] APPERT> do you feel this is the cause ... <[Kevin] APPERT> of some of the folks who have tried... <[Kevin] APPERT> and don't like Forth? <[ting] PRESS17> The problem, I think, is... <[ting] PRESS17> that Forth requires a critical mass of knowledge... <[ting] PRESS17> to use it effectively... <[ting] PRESS17> Without the critical mass, <[ting] PRESS17> people will not feel the satisfaction... <[ting] PRESS17> and will turn away. <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Dr Ting, in your PREZEN document, you said ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> * That ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> " standards committees were formed but they never could reconcile .." etc. <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> in the West we have the saying "Le Bon Dieu aime les petits detailles ..." <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> That Providence seems to delight in tiny details ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> Is this the problem with Standardization, that .... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> life really, is "fractal", consists of tiny details that can never be ... <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> "uniformized", so to speak? <[Jack Woehr] VESTA> . <[ting] PRESS17> Yes... <[ting] PRESS17> Each of us have pride... <[ting] PRESS17> and want to leave marks on an important document... <[ting] PRESS17> that's the problem with a standards committe. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> Forth has been called "religion", which I feel... <[Kevin] APPERT> is inacurate. Rel. is based on faith, and I can prove Forth is ... <[Kevin] APPERT> better! (but not to some people) comment? <[ting] PRESS17> Some proved that C is better... <[ting] PRESS17> some proved that assembly is better... <[ting] PRESS17> We have to convince ourself that we are right... <[ting] PRESS17> that's is relgion. I think. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Hawley If the change from any other language to Forth... is larger than most changes to a language from a related language.. which I think it probably is ... that is, Forth is something of a Bastard in the family of languages.. and the investment of time and effort is thus large to change to Forth... What kind of argument, proof, testimonial, plea, bribe etc. if any, . would be most liable to cause an experienced and successful user ... of another language, to give Forth a serious try ? ... <[ting] PRESS17> This is a good point to go back to Zen... <[ting] PRESS17> How do you transfer enlightenment?... <[ting] PRESS17> I requires lots of efforts at the user... <[ting] PRESS17> We have no way to force this burden on other people... <[ting] PRESS17> except your student... <[ting] PRESS17> who must please you... <[ting] PRESS17> So. I don't know... <[ting] PRESS17> if we can force it on people. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Jim <[Jim] J.NELSON5> By the way, I am a first born. <[Jim] J.NELSON5> As a community we are rapidly approaching the day when we'll discuss ... <[Jim] J.NELSON5> Forth openly only in these electronic twentieth century catacombs. ... <[Jim] J.NELSON5> Do you see any way to change our image of participatory iconoclasm? <[ting] PRESS17> No. <[ting] PRESS17> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> damn ! <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Hawley I am first born also, .... interesting .... <[Gary] GARY-S> we approach the witching hour - any last questions for Dr. Ting <[Gary] GARY-S> Dr. Ting - I have one... <[Gary] GARY-S> we are losing ground in our first best stronghold... <[Gary] GARY-S> that of astrophysics/astronomy... <[Gary] GARY-S> care to comment on this loss of faith ? <[ting] PRESS17> We are losing in all fields... <[ting] PRESS17> However, the essence of computing remains the same... <[ting] PRESS17> There is always pockets of applications... <[ting] PRESS17> where Forth will shine... <[ting] PRESS17> Forth will remain to be a useful tool... <[ting] PRESS17> for many who invest time and efforts in it... <[ting] PRESS17> ... <[ting] PRESS17> NC4000 and its son RTX2000... <[ting] PRESS17> tend to remind many people that... <[ting] PRESS17> there are something they can learn... is here. <[ting] PRESS17> I think we are doing alright. <[ting] PRESS17> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Jim you have the honor of the last question... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jim <[Jim] J.NELSON5> the last question, <[Jim] J.NELSON5> like many, my learning curve was impeded.. <[Jim] J.NELSON5> by everything I'd learned before... <[Jim] J.NELSON5> would forth seem more natural... <[Jim] J.NELSON5> if children were taught it as a natural means of computer <[Jim] J.NELSON5> interaction? I guess that is politically impossible now. <[Jim] J.NELSON5> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga ting <[ting] PRESS17> ok <[ting] PRESS17> I doubt that children can learn it naturally... <[ting] PRESS17> I could not teach my children Forth... <[ting] PRESS17> However, a friend Mr. Sam Chen was very successful... <[ting] PRESS17> in teaching Forth to hgis wife (!) and children Forth... <[ting] PRESS17> ... <[ting] PRESS17> I think the problem is... <[ting] PRESS17> that you are designing a computer when using Forth... <[ting] PRESS17> the best results do not come until the whole picture... <[ting] PRESS17> is in place... <[ting] PRESS17> It is not a trivial task... <[ting] PRESS17> that you can expect of everyone... <[Gary] GARY-S> Before your closing comments I have agreed to relinquish the expression of gratitude to Jack Woehr ( I do thank you on behalf of all).