Minutes of the FIGGY BAR Guest RT Conference. with Larry Forsley as special guest Larry's Topic: 'Forth in Publications' Larry reviews Forth's past and prejects questions about the future/present ...and.......> sub-title: Larry responds to questions regarding non-performance of JFAR Date: 12/08/88 Time: 22:30EST Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[larry] PRESS14] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [R.BERKEY] [[Jax Rampant] VESTA] [[mitch] TA] Minutes: is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> just getting set up Larry - make yourself comfortable a few.. <[larry] PRESS14> thanks <[larry] PRESS14> Please review rules. <[Gary] GARY-S> ok - rules for you or everyone ? <[larry] PRESS14> just me. <[Gary] GARY-S> ok - basically I give you an intro... <[Gary] GARY-S> you set your topic tone with opening comments... <[Gary] GARY-S> and we open the floor to questions... <[Gary] GARY-S> you do NOT have to request permission to speak ... <[Gary] GARY-S> you always get to respond... <[Gary] GARY-S> I acknowledge questioaires in order and you just have... <[Gary] GARY-S> to remember three dots for unfinished comments... <[Gary] GARY-S> and a ga at the end.. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga <[larry] PRESS14> Ok... <[larry] PRESS14> sounds pretty easy... <[larry] PRESS14> thanks. <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> no prob ... <[Gary] GARY-S> if you recall we leave the floor open for our... <[Gary] GARY-S> usual chaos at the start and at the end... <[Gary] GARY-S> between gavels as it were.. <[larry] PRESS14> quite the earthquake in Armenia! <[Gary] GARY-S> yes and worse I suspect than we know as yet.. <[Gary] GARY-S> even Azerbajain is sending relief and.. <[Gary] GARY-S> those two are just like the PLO and Israel. <[larry] PRESS14> right. Browning has a theory regarding gravitational ... <[larry] PRESS14> tides and the like that has the peak of this activity in Dec of... is here. <[larry] PRESS14> 1989! If this isn't the entre, I wonder what it <[larry] PRESS14> will be like... <[Gary] GARY-S> I wonder if some of his theory can also explain el nino <[Gary] GARY-S> ga <[larry] PRESS14> Gary, how's the twoops <[larry] PRESS14> the book is Climate and the Affairs of Man... <[larry] PRESS14> Winkless and Browning. <[Gary] GARY-S> what's a twoops ? <[larry] PRESS14> A twypo. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Troops? <[Gary] GARY-S> twank you <[larry] PRESS14> no twoops., like battle twoops. <[larry] PRESS14> How has the genie signup been? <[Gary] GARY-S> oh...those troops <[larry] PRESS14> no those twoops. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dennis is currently running a survey of that very subject... <[Gary] GARY-S> so the reviews are still out. <[larry] PRESS14> How active are the roundtables now as compared to last year? <[Gary] GARY-S> It still runs in spots, but I'd say genearally considerably higher and the... <[Gary] GARY-S> quality is very high. <[larry] PRESS14> Using a bulletin board live... <[larry] PRESS14> has some of the same properties as jet travel... <[larry] PRESS14> I can intellectually understand what's going on... <[larry] PRESS14> and how I get there... <[larry] PRESS14> But being connected with several people across... <[larry] PRESS14> the country or beyond still boggles me. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi TA <[larry] PRESS14> who ta? hello all <[Gary] GARY-S> I think we should cool it for five more then go regardless... <[Gary] GARY-S> comments Larry, Len, TA <[Gary] GARY-S> ga <[larry] PRESS14> sounds good. <[mitch] TA> is that better <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Larry, to see who's on, type /STA at the beginning of a line. <[larry] PRESS14> ah, ah, have I met you before? in surrogate or for real <[mitch] TA> I don't think so. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mitch, I remember talking to you about a year ago. ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How's Chicago? <[mitch] TA> yes that is me. It is really good. <[Gary] GARY-S> Does everyone know formal rules ? <[larry] PRESS14> I like your chicago style deep dish pizza. <[mitch] TA> I have one quick question. What is the best pd forth for IBM? <[Gary] GARY-S> F-PC <[mitch] TA> So do I. <[larry] PRESS14> what does that mean? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Easy, F-PC <[Gary] GARY-S> without question. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> PD is "public Domain" <[mitch] TA> which one is F-pc? <[larry] PRESS14> Is that Tom Zimmer's? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It's new. Yes, Larry. <[Gary] GARY-S> Mitch - please see category 15, F-PC tutorial... <[mitch] TA> I still have an ST but use a IBM at work. Is it up on GE? <[Gary] GARY-S> if you just want the program it is in the library as... <[Gary] GARY-S> FPCA.ARC,FPCB.ARC,and FPCH.ARC <[Gary] GARY-S> To get going you only need FPCA.ARC <[Gary] GARY-S> NOW = Mitch, do you know formal conference rules ? <[mitch] TA> no <[Gary] GARY-S> ok - briefly... <[Gary] GARY-S> if you want to ask a question type either... <[Gary] GARY-S> !! or /rai... <[mitch] TA> ok <[Gary] GARY-S> and I will keep a tracking of who is next in line to ask Larry a question... <[Gary] GARY-S> type three dots after every uncompleted comment... <[Gary] GARY-S> and end each completed comment with a ga on a sepearte lin... <[Gary] GARY-S> and PLEAE type ok first when you are recognized so we will know you know it is your turn... <[Gary] GARY-S> Our guest on the GEnie Forth RoundTable is Larry Forsley.. <[Gary] GARY-S> This is Larry's second appearance as a special gues.. <[Gary] GARY-S> Larry is owner of DashFind Associates.. <[Gary] GARY-S> a Forth locator service matching prospect and company in need.. <[Gary] GARY-S> He is chairman of the Rochester Forth Conference.. <[Gary] GARY-S> and Publisher of the Journal of Forth Applications and Research. <[Gary] GARY-S> which ties in with tonights Topic.. <[Gary] GARY-S> 'Forth in Publications'.. <[Gary] GARY-S> Larry Forsley. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Larry <[larry] PRESS14> Thank you... <[larry] PRESS14> Forth is going on towards 20 years... <[larry] PRESS14> for the first several, it was totally an oral tradition... <[larry] PRESS14> Forth, Inc. published some early manuals... <[larry] PRESS14> two papers appeared in the IEEE and Astronomy literature... <[larry] PRESS14> and all was silence... <[larry] PRESS14> until... <[larry] PRESS14> Forth Dimensions, FORML Conferences, the Journal of Forth... <[larry] PRESS14> Application and Research, Rochester Conf. Proc. <[larry] PRESS14> then Dr. Dobbs... <[larry] PRESS14> and the big one... <[larry] PRESS14> Byte Magazine, 1980 and their first language issue, which... <[larry] PRESS14> happened to be on Forth. <[larry] PRESS14> As of 2 years ago, when last I counted, there... <[larry] PRESS14> were about 2,000 references to Forth in the literature. <[larry] PRESS14> But are... <[larry] PRESS14> we writing what we're doing more than before? <[larry] PRESS14> are we writing to ourselves or to a larger group? <[larry] PRESS14> Early on, Elizabeth Rather worried that the Journal... <[larry] PRESS14> would take good authors away from ... <[larry] PRESS14> the 'open' literature. Did that happen? <[larry] PRESS14> Who reads about Forth in Dobbs? <[larry] PRESS14> And, what about textbooks. Even with Brodie, Winfield, Haydon... <[larry] PRESS14> Kelly and Spies, Pountain... <[larry] PRESS14> why isn't there a suitable college level text that... <[larry] PRESS14> ties Forth into the rest of computing? <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> questions ? <[Gary] GARY-S> Larry - I know you were approached on this... <[Gary] GARY-S> will you please for once and for all... <[Gary] GARY-S> respond to the non-performance of JFAR this year.. <[Gary] GARY-S> where is it... <[Gary] GARY-S> what are your plans to make good on purchased volumes... <[Gary] GARY-S> and when. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga <[larry] PRESS14> Thanks for the chance to respond. JFAR V 2 will be going to the <[larry] PRESS14> printers in about 2 weeks. Just before Christmas. It has papers by... <[larry] PRESS14> Dress (neural nets)... <[larry] PRESS14> Grossman (a solver for f(x)=0)... <[larry] PRESS14> Noble (on the death of Fortran)... <[larry] PRESS14> Roye (exception handling) <[larry] PRESS14> Feucht (LISP and a new number system)... <[larry] PRESS14> and a bit more... <[larry] PRESS14> We have been held up converting to an electronic system. We now <[larry] PRESS14> use Ventura Publisher and have found the transition very... <[larry] PRESS14> painful... <[larry] PRESS14> JFAR V 3 and V 4 papers are now being processed. <[larry] PRESS14> I expect volume V to be finished by June 89. <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> and what of questions regarding the missing issues.. <[Gary] GARY-S> will subscriptions be carried over ? <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Larry <[larry] PRESS14> Everyone who has subscribed to Volume V will get the complete. .. <[larry] PRESS14> subscription. <[Gary] GARY-S> Thank you... <[larry] PRESS14> If anyone feels that they are... <[Gary] GARY-S> it was time to address that publically... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ok <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> it will incriminate you ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but, do you think that Forth Dimension is... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in the right niche, that is doing the things... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you think it should? <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> good question. If it were, one would think that its is here. <[larry] PRESS14> subscription base would increase. Either the community isn't. .. <[larry] PRESS14> increasing, or it's aimed at the wrong market... <[larry] PRESS14> One comment... <[larry] PRESS14> It is the type of publication which should carry timely... <[larry] PRESS14> gossip. <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> !! <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Jax <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I'm sorry I'm late, but that seems to be endemic in the FORTH community ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> ... where's my magazine :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry - again <[larry] PRESS14> If you'd been here earlier you'd know why your magazine... <[larry] PRESS14> wasn't!! <[larry] PRESS14> No, I'm sorry. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> Read the opening question Jack - it's pretty complete <[larry] PRESS14> We've found it difficult going electronic- Ventura Publisher is a pain. <[larry] PRESS14> However, V 2 is going out to the printer's for Christmas and I expect... <[larry] PRESS14> Vol V to be finished and in your hands (V 3 and V 4) by June 89. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Well. excuse me for being fresh ... <[larry] PRESS14> They are are in typesetting now... <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> but that is what I was told in April 88, AUgust 88 and another time. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> For a while ... <[larry] PRESS14> Jack, if you would like, I will refund your sub... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry - and then we will rest this issue <[larry] PRESS14> scription. No questions asked. No problem. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> JFAR set the standard for FORTH publications ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I am far more interested in what it is that caused the dodgey customer relations. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I'm asking a serious question. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I can understand ... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry - good point JFAR is a standard bearer <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> why a man publishing a FOrth pub ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> might end up with holes in his shoes ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> the question is ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> why JFAR was not frank with the FORTH community ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> ( such as we are ) ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> about the problems that were occurring ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I would rather have been told in April when I last asked . .. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> that "Jeez, we're in deep do-do " ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> than "it's at the printers". <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> I don't believe that we have ever said... <[larry] PRESS14> that it was at the Printer's when it wasn't... <[larry] PRESS14> We had a complete turnover of staff: editor, publisher,.. <[larry] PRESS14> typesetting, business manager... <[larry] PRESS14> Some of this left things more disorganized than any of... <[larry] PRESS14> us realized... <[larry] PRESS14> However, I believe that Mahlon Kelly and Jim... <[larry] PRESS14> Basile are doining a good job. We have 14 papers in review... <[larry] PRESS14> at this time... <[larry] PRESS14> and Jim now has a ventura system at Long Island Univ. <[larry] PRESS14> to allow us to convert disk formats into JFAR format... <[larry] PRESS14> We're moving. Not holding out on anyone! <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Well, I wish JFAR well ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> And i only persist ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> because i have had this episode thrown up in my face .. <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> as an example of the unreliability ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> of the Forth community. <[larry] PRESS14> Jack... <[larry] PRESS14> Jack... <[larry] PRESS14> I agree that being a standard bearer puts you in front. <[larry] PRESS14> It is a difficult question whether to compromise quality... <[larry] PRESS14> for timelyness... <[larry] PRESS14> Since JFAR is intended to be archival, I made the decision ... <[larry] PRESS14> for quality. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think the word archival... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> is important. There are 2 kinds of medical... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> publications, one is "archival" and... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> the other is more journalistic... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is hard to combine the two, and attempts... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> usually fail. You are wise to... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> take the point of view you have. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> Thank you. Originally, we had considered calling the... <[larry] PRESS14> Journal the "Annals of Forth". One would subscribe for... <[larry] PRESS14> 4 issues which would come out when we had the appropriate... <[larry] PRESS14> material... <[larry] PRESS14> I know that to JAX and others (myself included)... <[larry] PRESS14> that's how it feels... <[larry] PRESS14> But... <[larry] PRESS14> It's also important to appear regularly with "right scholarly" <[larry] PRESS14> work, as the Brits would call lit... <[larry] PRESS14> I think that having a reviwed publication provides a good... <[larry] PRESS14> measure of what is worth doing, and how... <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[larry] PRESS14> A question to you all. <[larry] PRESS14> I believe that the Forth community needs the infusion... <[larry] PRESS14> of college level support that made UNIX/C what they are... <[larry] PRESS14> today... <[larry] PRESS14> I started the Journal specifically to fill ... <[larry] PRESS14> the need for solid articles on implementation and application. .. <[larry] PRESS14> the Rochester Conferences for much the same raeson... <[larry] PRESS14> Any comments? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. I think that FD has concentrated on... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> programming. That is very important, but... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> the kind of thing I heard at Rochester... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> also is, and is the future of Forth. Mostly real-time... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> applications. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> In that case, where does George Shaw's efforts... <[larry] PRESS14> in creating SIG Forth in the ACM domain, as well as... <[larry] PRESS14> another "forth based" publication fit in? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[larry] PRESS14> in particular... <[larry] PRESS14> Is the community big enough to hold them all... <[larry] PRESS14> Or will competition spur excellence, and a larger community? <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You asked 2 questions, and the answer to both is "time will tell"... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> These things work themselves out... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and each publication and group will find... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> its place, with some overlap... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think that publications stimulate publication... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Look at the medical field <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> I have the strong opinion... <[Gary] GARY-S> myself that greater outreach will attract more people.. <[Gary] GARY-S> and even if the expected dilution... <[Gary] GARY-S> occurs there will be also more.. <[Gary] GARY-S> quality professionls rise to the.. <[Gary] GARY-S> top... <[Gary] GARY-S> that is precisely why I continue to try to contact as many people as possible.. <[Gary] GARY-S> via telecomm, and Jax agrees on this point.. <[Gary] GARY-S> care to comment on how that mixes with your questions, larry <[Gary] GARY-S> ga <[larry] PRESS14> I'm pleased to hear a plea for diversity! <[larry] PRESS14> I agree... <[larry] PRESS14> The community will only grow by evolving, which will be painful... <[larry] PRESS14> for some (although...) <[larry] PRESS14> one always says but not me. <[larry] PRESS14> ga is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I think we are all a bunch of old f***s ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> What I see around me ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> is about 100 times the number of teenagers playing with computers ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> than were playing with them in the 1970's ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> what are we doing to attract them to Forth? <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> I should like to see... <[larry] PRESS14> a program in computing aimed... <[larry] PRESS14> at the possibilites that can be most easily... <[larry] PRESS14> accomplished in resource-poor environments... <[larry] PRESS14> using Forth and Forth like languages... <[larry] PRESS14> I say resource poor, because... <[larry] PRESS14> most high schools and community colleges and state schools... <[larry] PRESS14> have inherited the Apple II and Commodore ilk of computing... <[larry] PRESS14> and will `likely remain in a state of 3rd world computing... <[larry] PRESS14> compared to "real Universities" forever. <[larry] PRESS14> Yet, Forth can accomplish the same tour de force... <[larry] PRESS14> on an Apple II as LISP on the latest Sun... <[larry] PRESS14> Workstation...Sometimes faster. <[larry] PRESS14> If one aims at this audience, then amazing things w*i*l*l <[larry] PRESS14> happen... <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Forth on SPARC is a LOT better <[larry] PRESS14> I've... <[larry] PRESS14> one last query... <[larry] PRESS14> What is the possibility... <[larry] PRESS14> that Forth will (has?) (should) return to... <[larry] PRESS14> its oral tradition... <[larry] PRESS14> via bulletin boards and real time Conferences? <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Larry ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I think that FORTH never left the oral tradition ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Academia ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> treats Forth as a virus under glass ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I sold a company on sponsoring our fig chapter ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> on the grounds that FIG ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> is the only organization turning out FORTH programmers ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> and that the maintainability of their projects ... <[Jax Rampant] VESTA> was tied to the viability of a word-of-mouth FORTH community. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga larry <[larry] PRESS14> Good point. <[larry] PRESS14> I've taught using Forth (not, taught Forth) for about 8 years. <[larry] PRESS14> About 50 students have ... <[larry] PRESS14> done something constructive and gone on... <[larry] PRESS14> about 10 of them are still in the Forth community. <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Larry - closing comments, please <[larry] PRESS14> I think that as an oral tradition, Forth is continuing... <[larry] PRESS14> in that vein, despite the efforts of many of us to bring... <[larry] PRESS14> it out from under it's rock... <[larry] PRESS14> Academia hasn't quite known what to do with Forth,... <[larry] PRESS14> nor its strange publications... <[larry] PRESS14> I wish SIGForth well, and a stronger Forth Dimensions,... <[larry] PRESS14> and a timely JFAR too... <[larry] PRESS14> My wish is that in the new year... <[larry] PRESS14> I find the time... <[larry] PRESS14> to put my money where my mouth is... <[larry] PRESS14> and write the textbook I hunger for. <[larry] PRESS14> ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Larry, thank you for another good conference and a needed airing... <[Gary] GARY-S> we appreciate you. <[Gary] GARY-S> this conference is officially ended === End of Steno notes. ===