Minutes of a special GEnie Forth RoundTable Conference with Jan Shepherd, President of Association Development Center, Inc. Jan discusses the promotion of Forth and the Forth Interest Group, and responds to questions about the image of both. Entire contents of this transcript copyright (c) 1991 GEnie Forth RoundTable. The contents may be freely copied and distributed in whole or in part provided origination credit is included. Date: 08/15/91 Time: 22:29EDT Attendees: [GARY-S] [[Jan] FIG] [M.BAKER33] [[Lou]L.KONIECZKA] [[Tom] T.WATERS10] [[Jon] J.ROY18] [[Elizabeth]E.RATHER] [[Diane]D.STRAUSS5] [E.BEATTY1] [[John] JDHALL] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[Torquemada] JAX] [AUNTIE] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[martin] M.ROWLAND1] [[Keith] A.HOELL] Minutes: is here. is here. not to worry - remember I do edit for clarity <[Jan] FIG> Want a beer? When does the con start? in about 12 minutes is here. I'll return shortly. If you want to do something for a few min utes and come back that will work <[Jan] FIG> well i still contend that there is life after birth <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who's birth Jan? the keyboard, though either is probably a fair assesment <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is GEnie as slow as I think it is tonight? For Mom or for baby is there life as we know it ? <[Jan] FIG> anyway we heard this week that Boeing is writing functional test software for assembly line processors in Forth.. You've got a slow port - I logged off, and when I logged back on I got a faster port <[Jan] FIG> 68030,80386,68332 and 80960 <[Jan] FIG> interesting eh! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> maybe Gary...Jan, do you know whos Forth Boeing is using? Do they need a technician ?????? <[Jan] FIG> hmmm is here. <[Jan] FIG> the guy didn't say but he wanted a vendors list and order form <[Jan] FIG> he's from Seattle <[Jan] FIG> name's Herb Hart <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> howya doing tom....what ya know? 5 minutes to conference time <[Tom] T.WATERS10> Just check out RT conf...first time on <[Jan] FIG> eeeeek is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sokay...we'll be talking about the Forth language is a few minutes <[Tom] T.WATERS10> My location is West Columbia SC <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hiya Jon...whatch know? Hmmm - my wife's sister lives in Anderson (just down the road from Clemson), Tom <[Jon] J.ROY18> (^= Just dropping in on the free RTC's tonight... is here. We'll get going in a few minutes Jon, so chat it up for now <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, sokay Jon, but we are going to be talking Forth here in a sec <[Jon] J.ROY18> (^= That's why I'm here! Can't pass up free RTC time! <[Jon] J.ROY18> Dennis, that's ok.. I'm a Comp. Prog. major.. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> as long as you obey the "rules" for formal conferences, you are most certainly welcome <[Jon] J.ROY18> Been to many a formal conference.. <[Tom] T.WATERS10> With fear of being kicked out of room....what is "Forth Lanuage <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hiya L.K. ...what's ya name? We won't be getting technical tonight - tonight we are going to see if we can't discover why we aren't attracting Jon and Tom and L.Kon... to Forth <[Jon] J.ROY18> (^= I'm a C man myself... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Tom, Forth is a language mostly used for machine control type applications is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who...boo hiss Jon...grin <[Jon] J.ROY18> (hehehe) It is similar to C in that it is a macro language, but much easier to implement, and totally extensible so you literally roll your own application language <[Jon] J.ROY18> Yep, I'll be taking Forth soon... Haven't had experiance with it yet.. Hi Dennis ... better watch out, I chatted w/ yer boss lady today! :-) <[Jon] J.ROY18> Is it possible to do any decent AI/ANN programming in Forth? you bet - one of the earlier frames was in Forth Jon, that Diesel thing from GE was written in Forth (after LISP didn't perform to spec). <[Jon] J.ROY18> Hmm.. (^= That's where all my interests lie... ANN and Genetic Algs... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jon, I've done several AI type things in Forth is here. Hi my name is Lou is here. is here. <[Jon] J.ROY18> Dennis, I'm taking it in a few months so we'll see what happens. .. I'm taking ProLog this semester.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ProLog is certainly worth learning (wish I had:) is here. ready jan ??? SHOWTIME - cut the chatter The GEnie Forth RoundTable is pleased to welcome as tonight's guest, Jan Shepherd, of ADC, the public relations consultants responsible for FIG's public image. Jan Shepherd has served as Administrator of the Forth Interest Group since 1984. She is President of the Association Development Center, Inc. since 1977. ADC also works with two other non-profit associations, one is a group of independent consultants, many of whom work in the computer industry. The other group is the Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA), whose purpose is to develop standards for the graphics industry. Jan meets with the FIG business group once a month. The group has been concentrating on development of public relations activities. for the past three months. During this forum Jan seeks to share some of their thoughts on the subject and to get some of yours. Please welcome tonight's special guest, Jan Shepherd. .. .. .. .. .. .. ga Jan is here. <[Jan] FIG> thank you Gary <[Jan] FIG> so...Webster's New World Dictionary defines promote as: to further the growth, establishment, sales etc of... Promoting Forth and FIG. Forth is not FIG's middle name, but its first name. The only reason FIG exists is to promote Forth... How ? By publishing Forth Dimensions magazine, maintaining a library of Forth books and software and distributing these materials through the mail order service, by providing a forum for communications here on GEnie, by holding an annual technical conference, FORML, where new Forth ideas are aired and shared and publishing the conference proceedings each year, by producing a directory of Forth vendors and recently, thanks to John Hall, an index of articles from Forth Dimensions and the FORML proceedings FIG> going back to when they were first published. In the past, FIG held an annual convention with exhibits and conference sessions. This was discontinued a couple of years ago because it was losing money, though the content was good. Fig promotes all these things through Forth Dimensions, paid advertising in other publications, through this forum on GEnie, through flyers about FIG which are being distributed by Forth vendors with their product material and through some of the activities of chapters, such as the trade show booth organized by the Silicon Valley chapter for West Coast Computer Faire each year. FIG is an organization of Forth users. It does not hold any interest in any Forth products or services other than Forth itself. It exists because Forth users wanted to have a central place which would provide a repository for Forth information, both current and historical, and distribute this Forth information as requestested. ... So this is a little bit about FIG and what it does to promote Forth. is here. is here. <[Elizabeth] E.RATHER> Jan, many of the activities you mention are directed toward people who are already interested in Forth. My main interest is in outreach efforts to those who thing "everyone does it in C."... What magazines do you advertise in? And do you do other outreach things such as press releases? For example, last year there were several Forth projects on the Space Shuttle. There are many Forth success stories that need publicizing. <[Jan] FIG> There is no doubt that there are many successful Forth projects which need publicizing and we, as FIG could do more in that regard. We do have a limited budget. As far as paid advertising we have placed our most recent ads in Embedded Systems and the Computer Journal. FIG recently conducted a survey of our membership to find out what magazines they read. There are over 150 magazines listed. It is difficult to know where to place ads. The better approach we feel is to try to get more articles about Forth published and to encourage our members who are already writing articles to mention FIG. We have noticed a slight upturn in interest from new Forth users lately. I am not sure why this is, but it may have something to do with the efficiency of Forth and the current trends toward efficiency. Recently we have heard of new Forth projects at IBM and Boeing beacuse people involved in those projects have called the office. Bess has a follow-up comment, then the floor is to Jax... <[Elizabeth] E.RATHER> Press releases are lots cheaper than ads, reach all 150 mags, and are more credible. <[Torquemada] JAX> Jan, Gary described you as the person responsible for the public image of FIG. If I am not mistaken, the public image of FIG is that of a moribund organization out of touch with its members, skirting the edges of bankruptcy. To what extent do you wish to claim responsibility for this? :-) why NOT more press releases and respond to Jax' pointed issues <[Jan] FIG> alright already, in the first place I am not the sole person responsible for the public image of FIG. And further, the image you describe is not as widely known or accepted as you seem to imply. FIG's image is closely tied to the image of Forth. At some point in the history Forth lost credibility, probably because there were many places where Forth was used and the individual programmer left with little trail as to how to maintain the Forth programs. FIG is a reflection of its membership and activities, not of me!!! <[Gandhi] JAX> Peace jan ... as you know, (since you are in the office) my company VESTA is doing as much as any compnay to further the image that FIG is indeed the organization we all want it to be, encouraging our customers to view FIG and use FIG as a front-line resource in the battle to acquire Forth pedagogy for their programmers. (i believe your Boeing boys are our customers, for instance) ... I wish to point out though that whether it is FIG, the front office, or the Forth community as a whole which has dropped the ball the ball has indeed been dropped, and FIG has a long climb up to touch bottom. <[Jan] FIG> Well we still have 1550 members..and for the first time in a long time this is more than last year at this time. What needs to be done, and what will it cost?... and who will pay for it? These are some of the questions we ask in or discussions at the business group, we are focusing improving our ad copy, and trying to determine how to get articles about Forth published, such as the success stories that Elizabeth mentioned and other success stories we all know exist. From our point of view Forth and FIG are on an upswing, slow though it may be at this point. <[John] JDHALL> As a correction, the public image of FIG is the responsibility of the Board of Directors. Jan's office and the FIG business group carry out the directions of the Board as best they are able. care to comment Jan John speaks the truth. We can only do our best to implement the directions set by the Board and business group. At the bottom line is Forth itself.. we see it gaining credibility at this point. The question of press releases begs a response. <[Jan] FIG> so...advertising is expensive and does not lend toward credibility because we are blowing our own horns, more press it a good idea to get it we need to create a conduit for the "success" stories to reach FIG in a more timely manner if we are to publicize the individual efforts of the members. I talk with many people who consult and who hold high positions in major companies. In recent conversations, I find that Forth is spoken of in a "kindly" or accepting manner, it is not a joke to them and many people seem to be taking a second look at it and finding it worthy. <[martin] M.ROWLAND1> how can fig justify charging 10 dollars for forth dimensions when something like Computer journal is 3.50 ? <[Jan] FIG> The cost is directly related to the number of subscribers. Whether we publish 10 copies or 10,000 copies, the editor and production fees remain the same. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I know of several instances in which Forth enthusiasts became interested in the language because they found Brodie's Starting Forth in a library. I have submitted this book to our local library. Any branch in the county system can accept a copy without further formality. I suggest this as an inexpensive way to promote the language. <[Jan] FIG> Good thought Len. We need to get more Forth books out there. We have been disappointed in the number of books which have recently gone out of print. Perhaps a special fund should be established for that purpose and FIG could provide the books at our cost plus handling. Our FIG chapter presented 'Starting Forth' , 'Forth: A Text and Reference' to both the college and municipal libraries here and the college response was much greater ! Just for future reference. Dennis , you have the honor of the closing question <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jan, has anything further happened in regard to getting the rights to the out of print books? I did some talking with Leo about Thinking Forth. Have you heard anything more? <[Jan] FIG> Nothing further has been done. Stragely, Thinking seems to have been recently made available by the publisher again. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are we getting copies? <[Jan] FIG> We have copies on order. I don't think they have arrived yet, but the publisher has promised them... we shall see. Jan - please make your closing comments <[Jan] FIG> as far as tonight, I can always think of things I didn't cover and my typing looked terrible, sorry. But the bottom line is acceptance of Forth seems to be increasing and obviously more press releases are desired. Thank you all for having me. Jan - this has been an interesting exchange. I think almost as many questions were raised as were answered. The stuff of growth. Thanks for a stimulating conference on behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable. This conferenmce is officially ended. === End of Steno notes. ===