Minutes of the Guest GEnie Forth RoundTable Conference, with special
 guest Jef Raskin, originator of the Apple Mac and the Canon Cat.
  
 The topic was: "What happened to the Cat ?" in reference to the marketing
                failure of the Canon Cat. This initial discussion rapidly
                gave way to a more thorough look at what the interface
                between computer and man should be. Certainly, an area that
                it can be safely argued Jef Raskin is one of the ranking
                authorities of, if not 'the' authority.

 Entire contents of this transcript copyright (c)
 1990 GEnie Forth RoundTable. The contents may be
 freely copied and distributed in whole or in part
 provided origination credit is included.
 
Date: 10/17/90   Time: 22:32EDT
Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S] - - - -  moderator, host SysOp     
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[[JEF] FIGGUEST]  - - -  guest of honr, Jef Raskin
[[martin] M.ROWLAND1]
[[Norm] N.SMITH11]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]
[[Bill] B.CLARK10]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Cool CAT] JAX]
[[Dave] OLORIN]
[[martin] M.ROWLAND1]

Minutes:
<JAX> is here.
<D.RUFFER> is here.
<FIGGUEST> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hello Jef Raskin :-)
<OLORIN> is here.
<N.SMITH11> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> any last questions ?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I am relaxing.  Enjoying the bytes scroll by as the sun 
                sets here
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        in lovely Pacifica, watching the ocean over my CRT.
<[Gary] GARY-S> want to trade for a lightening storm ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> must be nice Jef, we're envious :-)
<[Dave] OLORIN> I'm not. Snow is predicted by week's end.
<[Dave] OLORIN> And the wind blew the smog to Kansas this morning. The front 
range was georgeous. (Spelling optional)
<[Gary] GARY-S> By the way - Jef is using a Cat tonight
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I wouldn't mind some lightning.  The reason I'm in 
Pacifica is
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        that it makes my moniker palindromic.
<[Gary] GARY-S> cute
<[Gary] GARY-S> You have definitely set the standard for obfuscated excuses for 
living locale
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        That's right, this is beamed to you via thousands of 
lines of
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        FORTH code.  (The palindrome: I'm A PACIFICA PA.  My 
children are
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        named AZA and AVIVA.  We refer to my wife as MOM.)
<[Gary] GARY-S> arrrrrgh
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you ever done a real time conference Jef?
<[Dave] OLORIN> 1&2&1&2&1&2&1&2&1&2&1&2&1&2&1&2 <--- finger exercises
<[Gary] GARY-S> Mr. raskin claims to have the fastest fingers in the Pacific 
rim - I would not dispute his claim
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> I have done a real time conference, Dennis.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> I would.
<[Cool CAT] JAX> a b c ch d e f g h i j k l ll m n ~n o p q r rr s t u v w x y z
<[Cool CAT] JAX> spanish ex.
<[Dave] OLORIN> A new conference competition? Finger time trials?
<[Gary] GARY-S>  **** SHOW TIME at the FIG RITZ ****
<B.CLARK10> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Before we begin tonight's conference I need to remind ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  everyone this is a formal conference. .. .. ..
<[Gary] GARY-S>  That means NO interlacing. Request a turn to speak by typing ..
<[Gary] GARY-S>   !! <CR> or /RAI <CR>. I will keep a list and call on whoever .
<[Gary] GARY-S>  is next. PLEASE follow these simple rules : ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  PLEASE make your first response ok <CR> (so we know YOU know). 
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Then, keep your lines short, ending incomplete thoughts ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  with three dots (...) and ending your question/statement with 
                 ga <CR>.
<[Gary] GARY-S>                        thank you.
<[Gary] GARY-S>    The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome this ..
<[Gary] GARY-S>  evening's special guest, Jef Raskin who is best known for ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  having created the Macintosh project while working at Apple.
<[Gary] GARY-S>
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Before Apple he was a muscician and a conductor, and ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  a University professor and computer center director. Since ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  then this multi-faceted man ran a company that created the ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Canon Cat (which he is using tonight) which is compounded ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  of physical parts, Forth, and a better way of interfacing ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  humans and computers. ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Currently he is a human interface design consultant, working ..
<[Gary] GARY-S>  for many big companies, that he says will, in general ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  ignore his advice. (doubt registered by the moderator :-) )
<[Gary] GARY-S>     Please welcome tonight's guest, Jef Raskin.
<[Gary] GARY-S>   .. .. .. .. .. ga Jef
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Please let people know that multi-faceted is not 
                 related in any
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        way to "two-faced."  I am pleased to be here, and I 
                 think that it
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        might be best to just start with questions.
<[Cool CAT] JAX> First I were a Programmer ...
<[Cool CAT] JAX> Now I am a Project Engineer ....
<[Cool CAT] JAX> Jef, how long do I have to wait before I start having 
                 Ideas? :-)
<APPERT> is here.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        When I see the directions the questions take, I can 
                 make more
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        extended comments.  Thank you Mr. Cat.  My real 
                 interest these
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        days is in interfaces.  For example, windows are dumb, 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        icons wrong, and mouses a nuisance.
<[Cool CAT] JAX> Heresy! Burn Him :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sticking to that "heresy", let me ask....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how/why did you start the Mac project?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I can't stand the usual hand-to-mouse existnce.  The 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        real question is why we have to bother with all those 
                 "features" when
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        we are trying to get something done.  I started the Mac 
                  project...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        in 1979.  I have learned something in the intervening 
                  decade.  In
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        those days I was (correctly, I think) inspired by the 
                  work at PARC...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        But one mustn't confuse "better" with "good".  The Mac 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        was better, but one can go a lot better.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Please tell us what you think happened to the CAT. 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        It was, I have been told, a victim of interncine 
                 warfare within
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Canon and a lack of marketing support.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I am sure of the second hypothesis.
<[Gary] GARY-S> There was excitement here after John B was in conference with 
                Steve Roberts...
<[Gary] GARY-S> about the possibilty of a portable, personal Forth laptop...
<[Gary] GARY-S> then BINGO the CAT is on sale in Service Merchandise...
<[Gary] GARY-S> that's a lot of smoke and mirrors.
<[Gary] GARY-S> any further comment ?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        They are, by the way, still available.  A guy, David 
                 Wing, in San
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Diego has kept track of them.  Canon did not know what 
                 it had,
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        and tried to sell it through its electronic typewriter 
                 division.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        This was a mistake.  Then they tried selling it for 
                 twice the
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        design price.  That was a mistake.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        We did make some prototype portables,  I have one here 
                 and it
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        works (and runs FORTH) but our Vulture Capitalists had 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        lost their stomachs (and minds.).
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I know what the CAT is, and saw you use one at the Anaheim 
                    Conf...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but others may not know, could you give a brief description?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I wrote an article in Midnight Engineering magazine 
                 about the
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        history of what happened, which see, cf. op cit, and 
                 all that....
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        The Cat is a one-piece "work processor" with keyboard, 
                 screen...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        and disk drive.  It does word processing, spreadsheets,
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        calculations, programming, data base stuff, and you 
                 could even
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        program in FORTH and assembly language, all without 
                 ever leaving
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        the editor or having to issue a system command...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        The display was bit-mapped but Canon never let us tell 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        the customers about the graphics that were built in.  I 
                 almost forgot
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        to mention that it has a built-in modem and 
                 communications
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        facilities which I am using this very instant.
<[Kevin] APPERT> will you tell us...
<[Kevin] APPERT> what you can of whats in...
<[Kevin] APPERT> your mill?  whats next?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Unlike most of the packages I assume you are using, I 
                 can type
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        while reading what you are sending me.  This gives me a 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        fast start.  Next is Steve Job's company.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I am a consultant for a number of companies designing 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        new products and improving interfaces.
<[Gary] GARY-S> By the time I got around to buying a Cat there were none 
<[Gary] GARY-S> available, or are there ?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Yes, there are.  The Mr. Wing mentioned above knows of 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        some. FORTHite John Bumgarner may also know.
<[Gary] GARY-S> address/phone for Mr. Wing ?
<M.ROWLAND1> is here.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I will deliver address presently...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        1538 Grenada Ave
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        San Diego CA 92012
<[Kevin] APPERT> where would one get a copy of your Midnight Engineering 
magazine article?  I've never seen it ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> at local library, or at all for that matter
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Maybe I can get the address for that, too.  It is a 
                 magazine for
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        entrepreneurs.  They seem to be in business, since 
                 (unlike some)
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I got paid for writing for them.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have addree - will post soon
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jef, if mice and icons and windows are not the interface...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you prefer now, what do you recommend that we program now?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Midnight Engineering, 111 E. drake rd, suite 7041, Ft. Collins, 
                CO  80525
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> ...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> First of all, the secret of a good interface as two parts...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        (that should keep them on line)...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        1.  Keeping things visible so that it easy to learn 
                (see Don Norman's book, The Psychology of Everyday Things)...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        2.  Designing the system so that the user can form 
                 habits, which
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        allows the system to be operated unconsciously (like 
                 driving a
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        car) while you concentrate at the task at hand.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm told that the new Canon computer looks a lot like the Mac. 
                 Yes/No?  Does it also have CAT features?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Which one? ga
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm not sure.
<[Gary] GARY-S> care to comment jef, or move on
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        If it has certain Cat features, they'll hear from my 
                 lawyers.  I
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        am not aware of any Canon product using our interface 
                 concepts.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> moving on, at the Anaheim RealTime programmers convention...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you mentioned that the only thing you didn't like...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> about Forth was the direction of the parens...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> could you expond on that here for our guests?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I think that a program should look like an essay, with 
                 occasional
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        bits of code that do the work.  I published a bit of 
                 code in this
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        style in Programmers At Work (Microsoft Press).  The 
                 idea is that...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        human-readable stuff is more important.  If you are 
                 clear in your
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        documentation then the code is easier to read, more 
                 likely to be
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        bug-free, and easier to modify later...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        So you should just type comments, then use parens to 
                 set off the
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        ugly, interpreter or compiler-readable stuff. ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is it the icons you feel are no longer relavent in the Mac 
interface ? If so what do you think of the rather grand scale move toward X
windows and/or Mach and/or Geos and/or name your GUI ?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        When the world gets hooked on something (and Apple 
                 becoming a
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        multi-billion dollar company is a big hook) then it gets
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        followed...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        That came out garbled...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        1.  Icons...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        An icon is a symbol equally unreadable in all natural 
                 languages.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        The original research...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        that led to their use doesn't apply to the way they are,
                 in fact, used...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        What we often see in our windows or on our Macs are 
                 screens full of identical icons distinguish..
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> .
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        2.  The move to these interfaces is caused by the 
                 collective
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        inability of the large companies to do anything better 
                 or more
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        creative.  They all follow each other around like sheep.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are you still doing any of your work in Forth?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        No, I am not.  I am presently working with SmallTalk 
                 V/Mac.  This is not
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        because I love to memorize thousands of methods and
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        objects, but because of the clients I have to work with.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> when gary asked about GUI's you seemed to avoid the issue...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you think GUI's are better or just the latest rave...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that the "sheep" are following?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Sorry, I didn't mean to.  I am not against graphics in 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        an interface, nor the lack of graphics.  The question
                  is, is it good for humans to use?...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        For example, when I am in the word processor, I can't 
                  do a
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        calculation or send a message.  When I am in the
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        telecommunications package I can't evaluate a 
                 spreadsheet.  I
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        always have to stop and ask pretty please before I do 
                 anything...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I spend too much of my time pleasing the system and 
                 having to think about extraneous things.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        On the Cat (for example) I can do a calculation while I 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        am communicating with you.  No permission or commands, 
                 just do it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> does the cat multi task ? what about multi user ?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        In my arena, there is one machine (or many machines) 
                 per person.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I think that multi-user is generally not the way to go. 
                 Many
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        small machines communicating through some kind of server
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        (hmmm...) is to be preferred.  What do you mean by 
                 multi task?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think my question will also follow on that Gary...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think I hear you saying Jef, that there is just no...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> a tight enough coupling between our applications...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> at present.  However, I'm running under Windows 3 right now.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can load as many applications as I want...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and hot key to anyone that I need...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> with the mere touch of a button (or screen area)...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are you saying that is not tight enough?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> How much tighter can you make the connection?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        More than that, the problem is with the concept of 
                 applications.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Your having to hot key from one another is a symptom.  
                 I don't
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        have to hot key, and systems I design have not so much 
                  a tighter
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        coupling, but avoid the separation in the first place.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I replace the concept of an application with the 
                 concept of a
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        command.  If I type 34 * sqrt(87)...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Then it is just text.  Now instead of having to call up 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        a calculator...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I can just highlight it and invoke, say, the print 
                 command and see it printed...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        The send command and see it on my screen.
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> Or I can use the calculate command and see 317.13 on my screen.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Seems a lot like MPW.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Then you are saying that the application should have 
                    commands...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for everything the user might want to do?...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that seems a little monopolistic to me...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you see any way with your approach...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to have mutiple companies making different...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> commands depending on what the user feels..
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he needs to buy?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        There's that word "application" again.  You can't 
                 possibly have
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        sufficient commands for all tasks.  Software, instead 
                 of adding
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        applications, adds commands.  There is a very slick way 
                 of doing
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        this in a paradigm very similar to the Cat's...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        The Cat has an "Answer" command which allows third-party
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        developers to work from within the editor in a very 
                 "natural" way.  By...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        "natural" I mean that it will feel familiar to one who 
                 uses the rest of the system.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jax you have the priviledge of asking the last question tonight.
<[Cool CAT] JAX> Jef, your opinions about ...
<[Cool CAT] JAX> user interface and input devices ...
<[Cool CAT] JAX> actually is quite reminiscent of Chuck Moore's attitude 
                 towards such things.
<[Cool CAT] JAX> Do you consider Moore much of a personal influence?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        Instead of menus, why can't one just point to lists of 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        editable commands that have no special halo...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I first used FORTH when it was about 2 years old (on an 
                 IBM 1800,
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I think...)
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        And I found it worked much like I liked things to work. 
                  APL was
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        another great example (except for how things are 
                 spelled)...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I think that it was more of a parallel development 
                 rather than an
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        influence.  Little minds travel in the same ruts...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        But I like him personally, and wish the world thought 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        as clearly and as simply as FORTH's designer.
<[Gary] GARY-S> closing comments please Jef
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        I will stick around for a few minutes if anybody wants 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        to communicate further, but aside from a demonstration
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        it is somewhat difficult to show the fluidity and
                 agility that the kind of interfaces...
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> that I am working on demonstrate.  It is a matter
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        of how it feels, how easy it is to learn, of not having 
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> to change methods as you get to be an expert....
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        It is a matter of not having to think about the system 
                 when
<[JEF] FIGGUEST>        you've learned it -- and it won't trip you up .
<[martin] M.ROWLAND1> in your midnight engineering article you said you were 
                      working on something with japan?
<[JEF] FIGGUEST> I am working with a number of clients, and some are in Japan.
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Jef, on behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable, ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  'Thank you' for a intriguing discussion.
<[Gary] GARY-S>
<[Gary] GARY-S>  All may stay and talk, but this conference has officially 
                 ended.
=== End of Steno notes. ===