Minutes of a special GEnie Forth RoundTable Conference with Marlin Ouverson, editor of 'Forth Dimensions'. Marlin exchanges views with attendees, offers his thoughts about Forth (past, present and future) and presents his 'wish list' for article submissions and reader input. There is also a brief overview of the upcoming Boulder X3J14 TC meeting by Jack Woehr. This meeting should create dpANS Forth. Entire contents of this transcript copyright (c) 1991 GEnie Forth RoundTable. The contents may be freely copied and distributed in whole or in part provided origination credit is included. Date: 07/18/91 Time: 22:32EDT Attendees: [GARY-S] <-- SysOp moderator [MARLIN.O] <-- Special guest, Marlin Ouverson [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Brian] B.SUTTON1] [E.RATHER] [JAX] [S.WHEELER] P.S. My system has been crashing infrequently due to (presumed) heat prostrations. If that happens tonite (knock on wood) I will l og right back on. what are you running on ? Mac SE, lg. screen, minor acceleration, SyQuest, etc. You might consider mounting a dc fan on the power supply - available at Radio Shack Hadn't thought about adding another, but it might help! I've done that on a couple of confusers - just make sure the airflow helps exhaust heat _away_ from both the ps and the memory is here. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi Len, Gary, Marlin. 3 minutes to conf start brb - entertain one another <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Gee, I'm atypically early. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A riddle: Who said "Men may come and men may go.. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but I go on forever"? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Answer: Elizabeth Taylor <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Where are you living now, Marlin? Lancaster, up in the desert. I have sand drifts on my floor! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Amused chuckles.) <[Brian] B.SUTTON1> is here. 1 minute <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Do you know the head of the Flat Earth Society? No, is he out here, too? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> HQ in Lancaster. Well, one look at the area would tell you why... flat as a billiard table surrounded by mts. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Look him up; should be interesting. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ask anyone in town. You have apparently never been to Kansas NOW THAT'S FLAT (Amused chuckles) is here. let's have a conference The GEnie Forth RoundTable is pleased to welcome as ... tonight's guest, Marlin Ouverson, editor of 'Forth Dimensions', FIG's print vehicle and voice. Marlin Ouverson was about the last "old guard" editor of ... Dr. Dobb's Journal, when microcomputers were still ... revolutionary and that magazine a real pioneer. Related ... work involved him in computer literacy issues and in ... training for non-profits and the disadvantaged. Post- ... DDJ, Roy Martens and Kim Harris persuaded Marlin to ... interview with the Forth Interest Group. Eight years ... later, he is still editing Forth Dimensions. .... Please join me in a hearty welcome to our guest, Marlin Ouverson. .. .. .. .. .. .. ga Marlin Eight years...time flies, whether you are dodging deadlines or having fun, or both! I want to point out here that I do not speak for the Forth Interest Group. I have never been on FIG's Board of Directors (though they patiently listen to my I/O). Since I'm a paid, independent contractor, that's how it should be. And I disavow any Forth expertise of my own, because the real Forth experts--you who are here tonight, the readers of Forth Dimensions, the FORML crowd, Forth vendors, etc.--can speak for themselves and form their own technical opinions/conclusions. I just try to publish an honest representation of all your voices, and to meet as many of your needs as my limited time and FIG's limited budget allow. FD authors know that I respect their work, that I do not shoot down their ideas, but try to expose them to our readers in their best possible light. And FD readers know I am their ally--far from censoring or propagandizing, I welcome diversity and innovation. What we need in our pages now is more people willing to take the time to reveal their insights, question convention, pose questions, and share experiences-- programmers interested enough in their work to write about it, and/or interested enough in the next Forth generation to teach it what they have learned. Now, what questions or comments would you like to discuss during the time remaining tonight? In the meantime - editorial aside you do have a keen perch from which to make some observations about Forth and FIG... any points at this time ? Some people who saw Forth's public intro. when BYTE published its famous Forth issue ("scooping" me at DDJ by a month!) would never have believed that it would still be a viable language in today's environments & market. Equally, some of the 'fanatic Forthers' would have been shocked to learn that it has not become THE preeminent language--not even for a while, like Pascal and BASIC. But neither is Forth going to die. It's too useful in too many situations. Whether it will ever be a hot shelf item is irrelevant, unless you have the resources and skill to develop a market where none now exists. Some feel that the Forth 'edge' contributes much to their personal and corporate profits. But they are often afraid (wrongly, I think) that disclosing their use of Forth would help their competitors. So Forth's public image may not benefit from some of its successes. Bottom line: Waiting for Forth to become a huge success in order to be one yourself... ...well, you get the point. is here. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do you feel the "next generation" of Forth will be like? Technically, ANS Forth will have a greater impact than its detractors would like to believe. And you all will undoubtedly contribute to Forth's evolution. But in terms of success... Forth's success will be measured mainly by the success of the person using it. Someone in a small Forth shop with innovative products and good marketing, sales, and support, probably thinks highly of Forth. But the solo programmer without the entrepreneurial skills, time, staff, and budget that contribute to any venture's success? When his sole client hasn't paid up and the health insurance premium is due, he may not think much of the Forth business. Neither FIG nor Forth Dimensions can make a mass market for Forth. But substantially greater penetration will come, if it comes at all, when people see: a. more real Forth-based solutions, and b. the exploration, growth, and excitement that come with the whole Forth gestalt. (The qualities that made the early microcomputing scene so vital--the Luke Skywalker aspect, if you will--probably are better cultivated with Forth than with any other computing language.) I would like to see FD do a better job of reporting on some of the Forth successes--products, systems, and companies. What do you know about your readership? Size, level of Forth experience, etc.? Less than we should, especially when it comes to convincing advertisers they should be in our book. ?? Level of expertise? Sometimes waves of beginners besiege us with questions about how to load screens... probably that is after some p.d. Forth got a press release in the popular press and people got a mystery product they had no understanding of. More often, we have intermediate skiil folks who are not that interested in many of the internecine squabbles of various factions. To serve them best, we need articles with practical approaches. But we also need enough sophisticated Forth to enliven our veterans and to keep their interest and enthusiasm "in the circle" with the rest of us. <[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Marlin, I've often toyed with the idea of submitting some articles to FD; but am reluctant to invest the amount of time to put together something that may or may not be what you're looking for.... Is there any mechanism in place to, say upload an abstract to get maybe a conditional statement of interest? Sure, Brian. What the publishing world calls a Query Letter is a great idea. Upload it to me here or mail it to FIG. If need be, I will even pass it by our technical reviewers before indicating our interest in your subject. <[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Great -- thanks! ga I would _strongly_ urge use of GEnie - it is instant communication - and precisely one of our reasons for going to a public forum <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you have any particular editorial policy concerning the selection of aritcles? Let's see... in terms of content/subject/etc. no. The trouble when trying to write for ANY magazine is reading the editor's mind several months in advance of when he/she knows (if ever) what his/her mind is! But I can tell you some general things here that might help those who are wondering what we like to receive. The Forth community is very diverse. In our 40 or so pages, we need variety in subject matter and skill level. And the quality of the magazine improves when more readers write for it, so please participate! What do we need? Articles about the things that interest and involve YOU the most. Among a hundred specific topics you might think of, consider those that: -show learners how to build an application by putting modules together, writing some and adapting others. -show Forth in leading contemporary settings (e.g., MIDI and music synthesis, real-time, virtual reality and defense research, Sun workstations, 68030/40, '386 protected mode, etc.). -talk about Forth as a workhorse language in a typical small programmers' shop, doing mundane (i.e., widely available) work very well. -explain how an ANS Forth will or will not affect you. -describe a hardware project from design specs and coding through testing, revision, and production. -"Live-and-learn" stories--how you finally managed to finish that Forth project in spite of x, y, and z. We all learn from our mistakes, but if you share some of yours with us, hopefully we won't have to make the same ones! -engage your fellow Forth experts in a dialog or challenge. -etc. etc. etc... Those are some general observations. I hope more vendors will get their staffs to write (hint, hint, and thereby increase the technical level while, at the same time, knoitting our community more closely together. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> There are four forums for Forth articles -- Do you see them as competitive or filling special areas of interest? I do not see them as competitive. In some ways, they each fill special niches. Additionally, in our "market segment" if you will, there isn't room for us to be stepping on each other's toes: we need to be standing on one another's shoulders, which is the theme of a FIG promotion I designed this year for vendors who want to publicize FIG to their customers. Marlin, returning to the issue of who your readers are, I'd like to suggest a survey, maybe just a tear-out page. It would be a big help to you, your prospective authors, and of course prospective advertisers as well. Have you tried anything like that? Our past attempts at info. gathering are very well aged by now, Elizabeth. I agree with you--a new survey has been on my mind recently. I think it is a good idea, and am sure FIG would be interested in doing one. It will have to be designed for ease of tabulation, etc. and might only be mailed to a representative sampling of the membership ... but I will definitely pursue the project since you have now egged me on to it! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To what extent does FD solicit articles? If you do not, do you think you should? is here. Good question. I'd say that we do some soliciation of particular articles, and most of those do happen, sooner or later. I am VERY willing to do the solicitation, but almost always rely on some FIG member or Chapter to recommend the author and subject to me. It is far more likely that we will get a good suggestion from someone like yourself, who learns about something and is excited by it, than if I sit in the back room and toss out random article ideas. So, even someone (unlike yourself, Len) who does not write for FD personally can still contribute to its contents by referring us to an author or important topic. Just a follow-up -- a tear-out sheet in FD is cheap in that there are no special mailing costs, and reaches everyone. Per-cent return is low, and somewhat self-selecting, but it's better than nothing. Surveys are hard to write -- every time we do one which isn't often eenough either, there are things I wish I had asked. To change the subject, how can we help you more wrt. ANS Forth? Yep. And BTW, Bess, I'd like input from vendors on the kind of questions vendors would find useful -- such as my suspicion that while most of our readers are not known as big purchasers, they probably do a lot of product (i.e., system) recommending ... About ANS Forth, 1. Keep me posted when we get to dpANS. 2. TC members know better than just about anyone the more controversial decisions they are making. It will help if they anticipate a little bit and offer the rationale behind those controversial decisions to our readers. 3. Remember that I am not against or for ANS Forth, as an editor. I can see some potential advantages, which do not obliterate the views of the "loyal opposition." So I would like FD to be conducive to discourse without becoming a battlefield. That means, I encourage substantive debate in our pages so that the entire membership can feel included and understand some of the process. That the decisions were indeed debated and weighed, not made arbitrarily. I see that as part of FD's job to the community, but the material must come FROM the community. I feel good, on the whole, about all the work that is being done. I look forward to having the most involved parties explain their views to me so that I can better understand the final result. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Marlin, did you know that Forth Dimensions was quoted extensively in the Manchester Guardian, Yorkshire, UK, in March? Not a bit! tell me... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> They copied the entire "programming is like sex because" article in their computer column. It was picked up from their by a company in UK for their newsletter; got back to Canada, where someone posted it on Genie. Maybe it will have to be an annual FORML mission to provide adequately lurid copy for the popular press to pick it up. Folks interested in dpANS should try to get to the Boulder meeting 7/30 (details from JAX). How well did we do in the rationales in BASIS, Marlin? It will help a lot ga Brian - you have the last question from the floor <[Brian] B.SUTTON1> What is the current membership/circulation? Okay, Brian. To tell the truth, I don't know exactly--FIG provides the print run to the printer. It is currently under 2,000, safe to say, though we think that those 2000 readers are the key people in the Forth world. <[Brian] B.SUTTON1> okay, thanks. Jax has a short preview of Boulder if it's ok with you Marlin ga jax! It's in the nineties fahrenheit here in Colorado flatlands But in the evenings it is in the sixties and pleasant ... The massive US Dept of Commerce complex in Boulder, home of one of the world's atomic clocks ... and the tiny but dedicated Colorado FIG team ... are hosting meeting 18 of the X3J14 TC ... This meeting will likely prove a significant milestone in the 5-year (so far) effort ... to provide professional Forth with a standard acceptable to the comp sci & business world in that my straw poll says BASIS 17 has made dpANS results will be officially announced , for yea or for nea, at that meeting ... and (hopefully) celebrated at the BBQ on Flagstaff scheduled for Thurs. evening of meeting week (8/1/91) C U There. Contact me @ Vesta if you show up and are baffled &| bewildered. Closing remarks please, Marlin. ... Ok, a final :apologia": My editing philosophy, especially for non-profits, is to let readers shape the magazine's content and general direction, and to avoid introducing technical biases of my own into the magazine. I respect the many voices of the oft-polarized Forth world; each deserves a fair hearing, and is part of the dynamic that has kept Forth a technically significant force despite its relatively small numbers. I want the publication's design and editing standards to support the quality, clarity, and substance of its content, for it to speak clearly to new readers (and potential Forth proponents) while ably serving those who have been with us from the beginning. That is the balancing act; we waver from one side of that line to the other, at times. Hopefully, it averages out to everyone's collective benefit. GARY-S> Marlin , this has honestly been one of my more enjoyable conferences. On behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable, Thank you. This conference is officially closed. ===== END OF STENO NOTES =====