Minutes of GEnie Forth RT Guest Conference. Date: 06/29/89 Time: 22:21EDT Special guest conference with Tom Zimmer on 29 June 1989. Tom discusses his F-PC Forth, the next model, F-TZ, and his Forth philosophy in general. ** EXCELLENT CONFERNCE with good exchanges ** Attendees: [[Tom] PRESS18] [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN] [[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS] [[Kevin] APPERT] [TA] [P.BETZ1] Minutes: is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> Craig - welcome, we will get started soon is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> feel free to chat till we go formal <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not formal! :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> get my last Dave ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep. I have some comments which I'll mail you. <[Gary] GARY-S> The CAT list <[Gary] GARY-S> That is the whole point - to get those things done leisurely <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sounds good. <[Tom] PRESS18> This is a good hamburger I'm eating <[Gary] GARY-S> Let's get rolling - Dave and Craig are on the paying clock <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (makes stomach rumbling noises) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm ready! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If the clock was doing the paying there wouldn't be a problem. :-) <[Tom] PRESS18> I have cracked all my nuckles, so I'm ready is here. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Are we formal yet? <[Tom] PRESS18> hello Will <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi y'all. <[Gary] GARY-S> Before we begin tonight's conference I need to remind ... <[Gary] GARY-S> everyone this is a formal conference. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> That means NO interlacing. Request a turn to speak by typing ... <[Gary] GARY-S> !! or /RAI - I will keep a list and call on whoever.. <[Gary] GARY-S> is next . PLEASE follow these simple rules : ... <[Gary] GARY-S> PLEASE make your first response ok (so we know you know ) <[Gary] GARY-S> Then keep your lines brief... <[Gary] GARY-S> ending incomplete thoughts with three dots... <[Gary] GARY-S> and making your last entry ga for go ahead. <[Gary] GARY-S> thank you is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome... <[Gary] GARY-S> as tonight's special guest, Tom Zimmer , a ... <[Gary] GARY-S> senior programmer with Maxtor, Inc. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> Tom has been involved in Forth for about ten years.. <[Gary] GARY-S> writing several public domain kernels in the processs.... <[Gary] GARY-S> His first such efforts were a translation of a MicroForth... <[Gary] GARY-S> 8080 to 6502 and a Tiny Pascal written to learn more... <[Gary] GARY-S> about Pascal. Tom's most recent contribution is the widely ... <[Gary] GARY-S> used and acclaimed F-PC for IBM PC's and clones. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> It is my sincere plaesure to welcome as tonoght's guiest... <[Gary] GARY-S> Tom Zimmer. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> ga Tom <[Tom] PRESS18> Thank you gary... <[Tom] PRESS18> I'm not sure what to say leading... <[Tom] PRESS18> after such a nice intro.. <[Tom] PRESS18> but I will say that I am glad to <[Tom] PRESS18> be invited to this round table and the the oportunity... <[Tom] PRESS18> to learn more about genie... <[Tom] PRESS18> My latest efforts have been in the area of clening up... <[Tom] PRESS18> F-PC for a new release.. <[Gary] GARY-S> thanks tom - questions ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom, could you give ;us some <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> details of what you are changing? <[Tom] PRESS18> Well,... <[Tom] PRESS18> there are many changes of course... <[Tom] PRESS18> the first and perhaps the most... <[Tom] PRESS18> significant is the adjustment of F-PC to... <[Tom] PRESS18> use multiple directories... <[Tom] PRESS18> for its sources, ... <[Tom] PRESS18> rather than keeping five billion files all in one directory... <[Tom] PRESS18> F-TZ as it is called for the moment... <[Tom] PRESS18> uses a Forth PATH as suggested from the... <[Tom] PRESS18> east coast forth board. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> Uhm <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> I use Mac's and Atari ST's, but I hear good things about F-PC <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> Any hope of a port to 68000 machines? <[Tom] PRESS18> Well it is really not likely.. <[Tom] PRESS18> <[Tom] PRESS18> <[Tom] PRESS18> I have and do use macs... <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> Sob <[Tom] PRESS18> but most of my work is done on PC's... <[Tom] PRESS18> The concepts could be easily carried... <[Tom] PRESS18> over to a mac, although... <[Tom] PRESS18> several mac Forths already have pull down menus, and many of the things.. <[Tom] PRESS18> that F-PC has already... <[Tom] PRESS18> It would be nice to see a Mac Forth Include a good debugger though... <[Tom] PRESS18> since I have never seen one... <[Tom] PRESS18> And i have looked as several Forths on the mac <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> First... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> many thanks for F-PC. It has become my environment... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> of choice on the PC. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Will the modifications you are making... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> change any of the (very) internals? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (and so kill my implementation specific extensions) <[Gary] GARY-S> go tom bows are allowed :-) <[Tom] PRESS18> BOW?... <[Tom] PRESS18> uhhhh... <[Tom] PRESS18> Well there are some internal changes, but not any changes... <[Tom] PRESS18> in architecture... <[Tom] PRESS18> Some of the changes are optimaizations... <[Tom] PRESS18> and then the are always bug fixes... <[Tom] PRESS18> But then there are also... <[Tom] PRESS18> some changes that are neither... <[Tom] PRESS18> for example i just changed the way printing works to prevent ... <[Tom] PRESS18> printing ON from printing to the screen any more... <[Tom] PRESS18> this will probalby drive some people... <[Tom] PRESS18> crazy, but when you are writting applications... <[Tom] PRESS18> you almost never want <[Tom] PRESS18> the printed output to go the the screen. <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> Your F-PC is praiseworthy in itself .... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> but my question to users of same .... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> ( after trying it myself and loving it ) ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> is ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> is not this a case ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> of "too much too late" ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> an Forth optimized ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> to an architecture which has been characterized as "Brain Damaged" ... <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> or is F-PC and F-TZ your first wending of the way .. <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> towards a Windows or OS/2 Forth? <[Tom] PRESS18> Too Much too late F-PC may be with respect to the cpu... <[Tom] PRESS18> but my primary goal in writting f-pc was to get a forth out there.. <[Tom] PRESS18> that would not scare away programmers... <[Tom] PRESS18> of other languages... <[Tom] PRESS18> I think it should have been done years ago... <[Kevin] APPERT> is here. <[Jack & Ivan] FIGCHAPTERS> amen <[Tom] PRESS18> that is going to sequential files... <[Tom] PRESS18> So ... <[Tom] PRESS18> Another of my concerns was to try to pull... <[Tom] PRESS18> existing Forth programmers out of what... <[Tom] PRESS18> I consider the dark ages of BLOCKS... <[Tom] PRESS18> (hareasy I know)... <[Tom] PRESS18> and into the ages of normal file editors and interfaces... <[Gary] GARY-S> These breaks in questions from the floor give me a chance to jump in ( don't let this great exchange slow down guys)... <[Gary] GARY-S> Tom, you had some considerable contributors... <[Gary] GARY-S> George Hawkin's browser comes to mind... <[Gary] GARY-S> care to dole out some credits ? <[Tom] PRESS18> Absolutely!!.. <[Tom] PRESS18> Actually BOB Smith was the most important contibutor... <[Tom] PRESS18> to F-PC, as he gave me the... <[Tom] PRESS18> technical assistance, and... <[Tom] PRESS18> a place to bounce ideas off of... <[Tom] PRESS18> Other contributors, were... <[Tom] PRESS18> Charles Curley for the first version of the disassembler... <[Tom] PRESS18> Bob Smith for the assembler... <[Tom] PRESS18> Jerry Modrow for encouragement... <[Tom] PRESS18> George Hawkins for the browser... <[Tom] PRESS18> and a certain level of Frustration... <[Tom] PRESS18> Several others from ecft provided... <[Tom] PRESS18> utilities, and then there... <[Tom] PRESS18> was Dr. Ting for the docujentation, which was almost current every week... <[Tom] PRESS18> until I finally stopped changing things... <[Tom] PRESS18> or perhaps I should say Dr. Ting MADE me stop changing things.. <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> Do you have a Windows or OS/2 PM version in the works, AND, <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> How do you feel about Forth in what Mitch Bradley called <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> a "rich hardware environment"... <[Craig] W.TRELEAVEN> Or should Forth stay 'minimalist'? <[Tom] PRESS18> Nothing like loaded questions!!... <[Tom] PRESS18> I guess I cant skirt the issue any longer... <[Tom] PRESS18> No there is not OS/2 version in the works... <[Tom] PRESS18> I have used windows on a 386 which I own... <[Tom] PRESS18> and have not been impressed... <[Tom] PRESS18> I use DESQview when I need multi tasking... <[Tom] PRESS18> As for the maximist or minimalist approach... <[Tom] PRESS18> I think it is clear I am on the side of maximist's... <[Tom] PRESS18> I like to have allllll of my tools available... <[Tom] PRESS18> and thus It is nice to have the ability to access larger areas.. <[Tom] PRESS18> of memory than a small model Forth like basic F83 can access.. <[Tom] PRESS18> I will refrain from any comments on minimalists... You might hang me.. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> One of the topics which came up... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> for discussion here a few sessions back... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> was extending Forth for use in... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> environments such as 386 protected mode... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Are there any plans to extend F-PC or... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> an implementation similar in design to F-PC... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> to a true 32 bit flat space? <[Tom] PRESS18> F-PC was really created to make a good forth... <[Tom] PRESS18> available to the masses... <[Tom] PRESS18> which means all those people with PC's <[Tom] PRESS18> much less AT's... <[Tom] PRESS18> I have always tried to keep F-PC usable... <[Tom] PRESS18> on if not the least common denomiator... <[Tom] PRESS18> at least one with a hard disk... <[Tom] PRESS18> and F-PC is even usable on a floppy system... <[Tom] PRESS18> if you don't mind not having.. <[Tom] PRESS18> the sources aroud.. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dave has a follower ga Dave <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hear Hear!!!! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I just wanted to say you have succeeded... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...as my general development system runs F-PC on a 2 floppy (albeit two 720k floppy) system... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...with all of the help files and sources right there. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And I have been pushing the system at anyone within reach.. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...who either looked interested in Forth... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...or didn't have the good sense to run away when I mentioned it. :-) <[Tom] PRESS18> Thank you... <[Tom] PRESS18> It was a vary careful.. <[Tom] PRESS18> consideration to get all of the... <[Tom] PRESS18> tools working in F-PC so they would not scare existing... <[Tom] PRESS18> users off... <[Tom] PRESS18> while still changing enough stuff to get it moving in... <[Tom] PRESS18> the direction i wanted to go... <[Tom] PRESS18> perhaps that is why there.. <[Tom] PRESS18> were somany releases of Forth prior to F-PC. ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Tom, any plans to make F-TZ more modular for users with two floppies ? <[Tom] PRESS18> It is possible now to use... <[Tom] PRESS18> a floppy system... but... <[Tom] PRESS18> the new F-TZ also has built into it a hyper text... <[Tom] PRESS18> system... <[Tom] PRESS18> for help and code exploration/.. <[Tom] PRESS18> which makes it very difficult to get rid... <[Tom] PRESS18> of the need for a hard disk... <[Tom] PRESS18> So I think if you have two floppys... <[Tom] PRESS18> you will have to kamake the trade off as to what to keep... <[Tom] PRESS18> on them . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hypertext?? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (suitably impressed look) <[Gary] GARY-S> expound Tom is here. <[Tom] PRESS18> F-TZ has a very simple form... <[Tom] PRESS18> of hyper text built into it... <[Tom] PRESS18> that allows you to if you are using a mouse... <[Tom] PRESS18> Oh did I mention F-TZ supports a mouse... <[Tom] PRESS18> any way you can click on a word... <[Tom] PRESS18> and the source will be brough up to allow you to examine... <[Tom] PRESS18> it and then easiplly return to where... <[Tom] PRESS18> you were before clicking on the word... <[Tom] PRESS18> This process is typically done by looking the word up in the dictionary.. <[Tom] PRESS18> saving the edit file and location... <[Tom] PRESS18> and quickly switching to the new file at the appropriate word. <[Tom] PRESS18> there are also ways to make hyper text systems with out having the forth dictionary available... <[Gary] GARY-S> Just how much space do F-PC and F-TZ require (memory) for basic ops is here. <[Tom] PRESS18> F-PC took around 400k to run properly... <[Tom] PRESS18> F-TZ is about the same... <[Tom] PRESS18> The .EXE files for F-PC were about 138k or so.. and F-TZ is currently about.. <[Tom] PRESS18> 150k <[Gary] GARY-S> Are there any further questions ?... <[Gary] GARY-S> If not, any closing comments about your kernels and/or philosophy Tom ( Kev I'll pick you up on the end) <[Tom] PRESS18> I wanted to say that there is a piece... <[Tom] PRESS18> missing in F-PC... <[Tom] PRESS18> that is the ability to create small applications... <[Tom] PRESS18> easily.. <[Tom] PRESS18> you can't do it... <[Tom] PRESS18> I have been working... <[Tom] PRESS18> on a target compiler that nears completion... <[Tom] PRESS18> that will automatically create... <[Tom] PRESS18> a minimized application... <[Tom] PRESS18> containing only the words... <[Tom] PRESS18> you used in the target application.. and the ... <[Tom] PRESS18> kernel words needed to support it... <[Tom] PRESS18> one of these days relatively soon it will be generally available... <[Gary] GARY-S> Kev - you have the honor of the last question - ga kev <[Kevin] APPERT> F*83 changed tradition on public domain systems by using Metacompilation. How do you feel about metacompilers, having continued this break from fig-forth-style assembly language sources? <[Tom] PRESS18> Meta compilers are fine for what they were... <[Tom] PRESS18> meant to be, that is a way to change the Forth system and... <[Tom] PRESS18> rebuild it without having a seperate program or assembler... <[Tom] PRESS18> But!.. <[Tom] PRESS18> they typically do a poor job of helping the user... <[Tom] PRESS18> create small applications... <[Tom] PRESS18> that is the user has to ... <[Tom] PRESS18> remove those things that are not needed... manually... <[Tom] PRESS18> which is not only a drag.. but can be almost impossible to do... <[Tom] PRESS18> if you are not an expert. <[Gary] GARY-S> Tom - on behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable ... <[Gary] GARY-S> 'Thank you' for a great conference. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> Our next guest is Roedy Green on July 20... <[Gary] GARY-S> All may stay and rap, but this conference is officially over. === End of Steno notes. ===