Best of GEnie..... June 1990 News from the GEnie Forth RoundTable by Gary Smith Some glaring truths emerge even under the most casual observation. One such truth is there is a wealth of opportunity to learn C via formal education, but little such opportunity presents itself for one wishing to learn Forth. As two guest conferences dedicated to 'Teaching Forth' indicate (Mahlon Kelly, July 1988; John Wavrik, March 1990) the landscape is not totally barren. Several vendors and other guests, such as Gary Feierbach, have also noted their teaching efforts; but since this discussion is with regard to academic instruction we will have to save those insights for another visit. One of the more active educators involved in the teaching of Forth is Jack Brown, of British Columbia Institute of Technology, and SysOp of the BCFB link in ForthNet. It is Jack's excellent F-PC tutorial that is carried in Category 15 on GEnie. So you do not labor under the false impression Jack is the 'ONLY' Forth educator let's look in Category 2, Topic 2 as Jack, Mark Smiley and Archie Warnock discuss Mark's upcomming Forth classes which will use F-PC for the course model. I have also prefaced this discussion with a course announcement that may be of some interest, since it is centered on a single chip engine, the 68H11. It is too late to get involved in this course as announced, but I am satisfied letters to John Schoonover will garner a courteous response regarding future course offerings. ************ Topic 2 Mon Sep 14, 1987 ATFURMAN [Alan F.] at 07:23 PDT Sub: Forth Taught at Schools/Universities News, methods, and collaboration ideas for those teaching Forth at schools, colleges, and universities. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 42 Sat Jan 06, 1990 GARY-S at 10:45 EST PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 01-05-90 (23:57) Number: 382 To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: JACK BROWN Read: (N/A) Subj: 68HC11 BASED COURSE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Those within commuting distance of the British Columbia Institute of Technology may be interesed in the following course offered by the Instrumentation and Control Option of the Electrical and Electronics Program at BCIT. Course Name: Introduction to Single Chip Microcontrollers (68HC11 used in course) Starting Date: Thursday Febuary 8 6:45-9:45 ( 10 weeks, 3 hours per evening) Cost: $210 includes 68HC11 reference manual, pocket guide data sheets, and lab handouts. I was talking to the instructor, Mr. John Schoonover today and here is some information about the course. - Course is 60% lecture and 40% lab. - All major I/O functions and devices of the 68HC11 will be discussed and exercised. - Programming is in assembly languge and begins with pulse generation and pulse with modulation which I am told can be used to turn an output port bit into an analog output ( D/A ). - Final project consists of turning the 68HC11 into an 8 Channel analog scanner ( using the HC11's A/D ports ). Test data for the 8 channel scanner is generated by using the 68HC11 as an 8 channel D/A output generator. Please note the the above comments are my recollections from talking to John and is not meant to be a complete course description. It looks like there might be at least three members of BC FIG attending this course, John Somerville, Jack Brown, and Dave Brown. John Schoonover, the instructor, has said that it should be possible for us to do all of the lab exercises in Forth (if we choose to do so) although assembly language is currently used in the course. You can register for this course by calling BCIT's extension division at: 604-434-1610. The Course Registration Number, CRN, is 08950 and the title is Introduction to Single Chip Micro Controllers. NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 44 Sat Apr 21, 1990 GARY-S at 13:20 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-18-90 (23:42) Number: 1634 (Echo) To: JACK BROWN Refer#: NONE From: MARK SMILEY Read: 04-19-90 (11:43) Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE I am going to be teaching a 7-week course in Forth next Fall at Goucher College using F-PC. The students will all have completed a 7-week course in FORTRAN. Is there a book you would recommend for the class? I need to choose a book soon. I have taught Forth twice before. Once, I used MVP Forth with Starting Forth (1st ed.), then I used F83 with Mastering Forth. I was thinking of using either Mastering Forth, or Starting Forth (2nd ed.), but I'm open to other ideas (like Kelly & Spies). I understand you teach Forth using F-PC. What book do you use? Did you require students to also purchase a copy of Ting's System Guide to F-PC? How did you work the cost of the program (did you get a site license from Tom Zimmer, or buy enough copies for the machines at your school, or what)? Thanks for the advice. NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 45 Sat Apr 21, 1990 GARY-S at 13:21 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-19-90 (11:45) Number: 1635 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: NONE From: JACK BROWN Read: 04-20-90 (22:41) Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > I am going to be teaching a 7-week course in Forth next Fall >at Goucher College using F-PC. The students will all have >completed a 7-week course in FORTRAN. Is there a book you >would recommend for the class? I need to choose a book soon. I am using a revised set of notes for F-PC 3.5 which were upgraded from the Tutorial on the BBS. Actually the revision process is not yet complete as I am converting them as this course progresses. These notes are in the public domain and can be revised or modified further by anyone wishing to use them. I have not assigned a required text but suggest the students get a copy of Starting Forth 2nd ed. or Mastering Forth. > I have taught Forth twice before. Once, I used MVP Forth >with Starting Forth (1st ed.), then I used F83 with Mastering >Forth. > I was thinking of using either Mastering Forth, or Starting >Forth (2nd ed.), but I'm open to other ideas (like Kelly & >Spies). > I understand you teach Forth using F-PC. What book do you >use? Did you require students to also purchase a copy of >Ting's System Guide to F-PC? How did you work the cost of the >program (did you get a site license from Tom Zimmer, or buy >enough copies for the machines at your school, or what)? F-PC 3.5 according to the notice is Public Domain and not Shareware, except for those pieces where contributors have restrictions. So I just gave each student a copy. In my course I am not going to deeply into the internals of F-PC.. instead we will spend the last week studying the source for ZEN 1.1 which is much simpler to understand! The verison I will be using was sent to me by Wil Baden and can be downloaded from BCFB as WB1ZEN11.ZIP AND WB2ZEN11.ZIP It is a fairly complete system and includes many of Wil's extras. PS... I am enjoying the graphics package! NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 46 Sat Apr 21, 1990 GARY-S at 13:23 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-20-90 (11:17) Number: 1637 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: 1760 From: JACK BROWN Read: 04-20-90 (22:42) Subj: TEACHING FORTH WITH F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE MS> I have recently acquired copies of LESSON0.ZIP - LESSON5.ZIP MS>from ECFB. I assume this is the tutorial you mentioned. Have MS>I got it all? There are 10 Lessons in all... I only ever uploaded the first 5. I am currently upgrading Lesson 6 to F-PC 3.5 and should be finished all 10 by the middle of May. I could send you (mail) the first 5-6 on disk if you would like to take a look. My students are also working out solutions to all the Problems. Some of the Lessons have up to 30 problems that require solutions. Most of these are fairly simple and straight forward. From my experience most of my students seem to learn Forth best by having lots of examples to try with problems that suggest modifications to be made or variations to be implemented. ( That is unless they are brilliant self starters!) MS>when you have finished the current revision. Are you planning MS>to put it on the BCFB/ECFB? I talked to Jerry Shifrin the other day and we were tossing around the idea of posting the revised Tutorial Lessons for F-PC 3.5 in the MetroNet FORTH Conference to see what kind of response it would get from a wider distribution. Who would like to see this happen? MS>I am unaware of anyone's restrictions, except on Bob Smith's MS>SFLOAT.SEQ, and on your (& the Kent Bros.) VPSFLOAT.SEQ. But MS>as I understand it, neither of these packages would not allow MS>us to give copies to students. So I assume you gave the MS>students the complete package, eh? I use the VP-Planner floating point exclusively. Bobs package is restricted to personal use and I assume thats what the students will be doing with it although I will not be using it in the course. My students are using a computer lab with IBM Model 70's installed (386's with VGA and your graphics package works fine on these ). They have a software protection system installed by the school called Integrity which prevents students from accessing the installed software. I had our computer systems department install F-PC 3.5 on all the machines in the Lab under a password so only the Forth students can use Forth as it would be possible for a clever (or not so bright) Forth programmer using F-PC to violate Integrity's security. All of my Forth students have some type of PC with hard disk at home on which I presume they will install F-PC. MS>it seemed fairly useless, since there was almost no MS>documentation, and you couldn't save the system or use MS>assembler (except crudely, via C, ). I take it that it's a MS>usable system now? Is there any documentation these days? There is still no *.DOC file but there are many extensions with good documentation in the *.SCR files. I have not used it extensively and am mainly interested in it because the 1.1 version is Forth 83 and the Kernel Source is mostly high level and has been kept quite simple. An Ideal system if you want to study the structure of the Forth compiler/interpreter as part of your course. MS>improved. I used to use his old F83X, before I switched to MS>F-PC. I hear he has a new version of F83X out now (3.0). Have MS>you tried that? I have not used Wil's F83X Is this 3.0 version recent? It is odd that Wil didn't mention it to me when I was talking to him a few weeks ago. Perhaps someone else upgraded it. To be quite honest I have one H*[[ of a time keeping up with all the Forth's available and must confess that there are many that I have not tried! One other comment on my Forth Students and my choice of F-PC. Earlier ( Last Fall) I had posted a note that I would be teaching this Forth Course and asked people which Forth I should use. From the replies the consensus seemed to be that a small system like ZEN , Guy Kelly's FORTH83 or PYGMY might be the best way to go. I choose F-PC because I wanted a system that used text files and one that would make a "good impression" on computer science students that have used dozens of applications packages and may already know half a dozen languages! F-PC and its environment were a good choice... My students had just completed a SmallTalk course on the PS/2 386 Model 70's and it ran like a slug! (maybe an exageration on my part)... but they were impressed with the speed and interactiveness of F-PC and the hypertext! I think it would have been embarassing to try and get them to use a small Forth system with a block editor. Dr. Richard Haskell of Oakland University in Rochester NY is also teaching an introductory course using F-PC 3.5. He is also working on set of notes that will be available on disk. He said he is bring his notes, hopefully for distribution, to the Rochester Forth Conference this June. I will be also attending Rochester Conference this June. Why don't you join us? --- * QDeLuxe 1.01 #260s NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 47 Sat Apr 21, 1990 GARY-S at 13:24 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-21-90 (00:33) Number: 1640 (Echo) To: JACK BROWN Refer#: NONE From: MARK SMILEY Read: NO Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > I am currently upgrading Lesson 6 to F-PC 3.5 and should be > finished all 10 by the middle of May. I could send you (mail) > the first 5-6 on disk if you would like to take a look. I'm willing to wait till all 10 are done. But I'd love to get a copy of the full set then. > From my experience most of my students seem to learn Forth best by > having lots of examples to try with problems that suggest > modifications to be made or variations to be implemented. That was part of my experience as well, though I also had my students do a major project at the end of the course. > I talked to Jerry Shifrin the other day and we were tossing > around the idea of posting the revised Tutorial Lessons for > F-PC 3.5 in the MetroNet FORTH Conference to see what kind of > response it would get from a wider distribution. > Who would like to see this happen? Me, though you should also put a message about it in the F-PC conference when you do, since some of us don't subscribe to the Forth conference. > I have not used Wil's F83X Is this 3.0 version recent? It is odd > that Wil didn't mention it to me when I was talking to him a few > weeks ago. Perhaps someone else upgraded it. Could be. I noticed a fairly recent upload on ECFB, but I haven't downloaded it yet. > To be quite honest > I have one H*[[ of a time keeping up with all the Forth's available > and must confess that there are many that I have not tried! Me too! > I think it would have been embarassing to try and get them to > use a small Forth system with a block editor. I agree totally. > I will be also attending Rochester Conference this June. Why > don't you join us? I would like to, but I doubt I can this year. I am currently just a poor graduate student. I used to teach full-time at AUM (where I last taught Forth), then I went back to school to get my Ph.D. in Math, which I hope to acquire this June. Next year, though, I may well be able to get Goucher to send me to the conference. I have been to F.I.G. and FORML meetings, but never to Rochester. > Dr. Richard Haskell of Oakland University in Rochester NY is > also teaching an introductory course using F-PC 3.5. He is > also working on set of notes that will be available on disk. > He said he is bring his notes, hopefully for distribution, to > the Rochester Forth Conference this June. I would be very interested in copies of both his and your notes, when complete. By the way, have you ever used the graphics routines in your course? If so, I'd be interested in the problems you designed for it. I've been toying with the idea that since Forth is ideal for process control, I might use the turtle graphics as a sort of robot that could be programmed for simple tasks. It would also give them something interesting to look at. NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 48 Sun Apr 22, 1990 GARY-S at 10:08 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-21-90 (08:11) Number: 1642 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: 1634 From: STEVE PALINCSAR Read: NO Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Well considering the fact that all your students will have completed a course in FORTRAN, I should think you'd give _very_ serious consideration to Kelly & Spies, since the others you mention begin at a very much lower level -- and also contain much less information. ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 49 Sun Apr 22, 1990 GARY-S at 10:09 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-21-90 (16:21) Number: 1643 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: 1640 From: JACK BROWN Read: 04-21-90 (16:19) Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > By the way, have you ever used the graphics routines in your >course? If so, I'd be interested in the problems you designed >for it. I've been toying with the idea that since Forth is ideal I used it in lesson 4 to plot random dots for the visual testing of various random number generators. I gave the students the whole package and they were also running your demos. NET/Mail : British Columbia Forth Board - Burnaby BC - (604)434-5886 ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 50 Thu Apr 26, 1990 GARY-S at 06:53 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-26-90 (03:12) Number: 1645 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: 1640 From: ARCHIE WARNOCK Read: NO Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE MS>> From my experience most of my students seem to learn Forth best by MS>> having lots of examples to try with problems that suggest MS>> modifications to be made or variations to be implemented. MS> That was part of my experience as well, though I also had my MS>students do a major project at the end of the course. I found that mine were very receptive to the idea of learning to write a program which would crash the machine. (Seriously!) It gave them an appreciation for the power of the language and also helped overcome the initial intimidation at the prospect of a new and completely different type of language. They had a great time. MS>for it. I've been toying with the idea that since Forth is ideal MS>for process control, I might use the turtle graphics as a sort of MS>robot that could be programmed for simple tasks. It would also And for image processing - a good excuse for looking at pretty pictures! --- ~ EZ 1.27 ~ Go FORTH and multiply! ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 51 Mon Apr 30, 1990 GARY-S at 06:29 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 04-29-90 (15:44) Number: 1647 (Echo) To: ARCHIE WARNOCK Refer#: 1645 From: MARK SMILEY Read: NO Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE > I found that mine were very receptive to the idea of learning to write > a program which would crash the machine. (Seriously!) Which of the many ways did you suggest? Or did you let them try to figure it out themselves? How much Forth had you taught them at that point? Did they know how to do LOOPs in Forth? I'd be particularly interested in any problems you devised for your course. > And for image processing - a good excuse for looking at pretty > pictures! I enjoy image processing, too, but what sort of programs could you assign to beginning Forth students along those lines? --- ~ EZ 1.28 ~ Be Forthful ------------ Category 2, Topic 2 Message 52 Wed May 02, 1990 GARY-S at 08:01 EDT PORTED FROM xCFB's => ------ Date: 05-01-90 (12:11) Number: 1648 (Echo) To: MARK SMILEY Refer#: 1647 From: ARCHIE WARNOCK Read: NO Subj: TEACHING F-PC Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE MS> Which of the many ways did you suggest? Or did you let them try to MS>figure it out themselves? How much Forth had you taught them at that MS>point? Did they know how to do LOOPs in Forth? I just let them try things. We'd already done @ and ! when I first suggested, and they'd go back to it periodically when I'd point out a particularly dangerous construct. Mostly they tried putting 0 into various memory locations. I had one pair of guys who really liked trying it with the assembler. MS> I'd be particularly interested in any problems you devised for your MS>course. Mostly, I worked from Jack's notes. I was teaching a non-credit course here at Goddard, and so didn't really make assignments, as such. I basically gave my own notes and then had them work on Jack's problems as a lab. MS> I enjoy image processing, too, but what sort of programs could you MS>assign to beginning Forth students along those lines? It's an enormously powerful example of vectored execution. Also defining matrices and images is a good example of using defining words. --- ~ EZ 1.27 ~ Go FORTH and multiply! ------------