Best of GEnie..... April 1990 News from the GEnie Forth RoundTable by Gary Smith One of the most common questions asked on the GEnie Forth RoundTable Bulletin Board, if not THE very most common, is, "What Forth should I get for my (fill in here with computer/chip/application) ?". This is not an unreasonable query, even from a seasoned Forth programmer or user when one considers there were 145 files posted in Library 4 'Public Domain and Sample Systems' the evening I was writing this column. Expect one or two additions by the time this piece is delivered to your mailbox. While that means there are many offerings to filter through for the one that might best serve your needs, it also means there is probably a kernel available for your needs. Keep in mind this does not include the splendidly supported products provided by systems vendors and embedded board and programmed chip vendors. First let's examine some specific requests and the responses they solicited. Then I will close this with a sampler of some of the public domain kernels available in the library, including some rather unique ones. ************ Topic 7 Messages dealing with the 'Which Public Domain Kernel ???' question. ************ ------------ ALEX KOZAK - re: 8080 FIGFORTH ak> I'm looking for an 8080 figFORTH with source in CP/M ASM Alex, there are two kernels on GEnie (which I know are also available on xCFB's) you may wish to consider : GEnie # 1418 - FORTHLIB.ARC is a 79-Standard kernel modeled after Glen Haydon's "All About Forth" GEnie # 701 - UNI4TH80.ARC is Uniforth's public domain (sampler) but quite complete If neither of these meets your needs I can upload to GEnie (and it will be ported to the xCFB's if you can't get on GEnie) a public domain fig-Forth written for a Kaypro II you should be able to run as-is on your Ozzie. I had to massage it some to get it to go on a Bondwell-12, but I don't think you will have the same problem with your O-1. Gary ------------ From: BEN COMBEE Subj: Forth for the IBM Do you know about a good public domain Forth for an IBM XT compatible that either comes or has available words to access EGA graphics? I have used F83 (dated rather a ways back) but did not like it's interface. Also, does anyone know of a good interactive tutorial for Forth that will run on the same system? I have seen similar programs for Turbo Pascal and the other "in" languages. While I have read both editions of Starting Forth, I still am having problems getting anything done. Ben Combee ------------ To: BEN COMBEE From: SYSOP (ECFB/SHIFRIN) You may be interested in checking out Tom Zimmer's F-PC. It's built on F83, is text file based, and has numerous extensions including a number for EGA and VGA graphics. Look for FPC225-1.ZIP thru FPC225-5.ZIP. If you can't find it locally, you're welcome to login here to download it. You can also order the base system from the author for $25. BC>Also, does anyone know of a good interactive tutorial for Forth that BC>will run on the same system? The two Forth boards and GEnie have an online tutorial based on this implementation. It's too big to network, but you're welcome to stop by and download the lessons or participate in that conference. Good luck! ------------ From: BOB BILESKI Subj: WHAT FORTH I would like to start learning forth by picking a system that is current and I can grow with. After downloading a number of forths I felt f88 by Zimmer was as close to a friendly language as I've seen. I've read that FPC225 is better because it is based on zimmers forth. I guess at this point I'm totally baffled by the millions of forths available as well as the number of extensions and fixes. Should I start with FPC225, f88, TIL, Harvard, LMI, F83, F83X, Zimmers etc........ Should I use one from the BBS or can I purchase a forth and all the attachments from one source. I spoke to Ofette about the FPC225 (total package) and all I really came away with is "very, very good. send check. $75. You'll like very much". I give up. Perhaps you can advise what system would be the best long term forth to purchase. Does anyone sell forth diskettes and tutorials so I can minimize by BBS phone chages. I suppose this vast amount of unstructured forth products makes many shy away from this language. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd appreciate any info you might give me...... Thanks ------------ To: BOB BILESKI From: STEVE PALINCSAR Bob, what forth to get should be in part determined by what you want it for, what you intend to do with it, and the state of your budget. For example, LMI & Harvard Softworks, to name only two, both have excellent, very complete products suitable for professional level work, at corresponding prices. With either of these systems, you'll get a fine product [actually, LMI has a number of fine products, both 16 & 32 bit, for both DOS & OS/2]. There are any number of public domain forths out there, as you've discovered, some of which have a lot of features, but all of which seem to have a chaos of versions, incompatible extensions, etc. There are systems that fit into about 4K, and there are systems that seem to take about 400K. I think some of Jerry's text files here including which4th might be of help to you... but the most important thing is to decide what you want to do with it. If it's presently learning something about the language, to get a feel for it, you might want to start with a fairly simple (and limited) public domain system. Unless, of course, 400+ dollars is a mere bagatelle... ------------ To: STEVE PALINCSAR From: BOB BILESKI I see what you mean. I originally wanted to use Forth for an embedded controller project. After downloading a number of forths I realized that romming a forth kernel is not as easy as I was led to believe. I think I will use the FPC forth for my learning process at this time. As for the controller I'll use use the Intel 80c52 Basic microcontroller, it has all the eprom burning, machine calls etc. that I need built in. As far as being slower than forth won't be a problem. I looked at ZEN forth but couldn't find docs to get me going. Perhaps I really need to learn what I'm doing before I can make any intelligent decisions in regards to using forth for control projects(non commercial). ------------ From: DANMILLER also check pygmy for an 8088 version of cmforth which is a good minimal system for embedded control. pygmy translated by f. sergeant is available on genie. includes a small metacompiler to generate code. cmforth for the rtx is romable. pygmy includes notes on regeneration. ------------ From: GARY-S >Does anyone have a public-domain x386, x286, or 680xx Forth system that they >could easily (emphasize easily) send me over the network to run on either >kind of Sun workstation? Thanks in advance! Sun work station => unix => Mitch Bradley's cForth. easy solution. send $50 to P O Box 4444, Mt.View CA 94040 Gary ------------ From: ERIC THERKELSEN UC like what I've seen of FORTH (F83, and the Inner Access S8), and intend to make it my principal language for in-house projects (and out-house if I can sell it). Can anyone recommend a Forth package for the PC (MSDOS) that: - has a fairly complete set of extensions for string handling, file access, and math, including floating point; - is more or less in the main stream - that is, whose extensions aim more or less in the direction that Forth seems to be headed; - has been around long enough to be stable and has a good user base; Wish list: - allows pre-compiled function libraries; - interfaces to the hardware either via DOS functions (rather than using the ROM-BIOS services), or via redefinable words so it will run on the Z100 as well as AT-compatibles. - internals available, metacompiler, etc. I don't want to HAVE to use these, but I like to be able to if necessary. Also they're fun to play with late at night. Any help anyone can give me in this would be greatly appreciated. ------------ To: ERIC THERKELSEN From: STEVE PALINCSAR HS/Forth will do all that you ask, including being able to use precompiled C libraries. It includes a metacompiler, includes all the string functions described in Kelly & Spies' Forth: a Text and Reference, and is as solid and complete a system as you could wish for. ------------ To: BEN COMBEE From: STEVE PALINCSAR Ben, if you're looking for a public domain Forth for the PC that has more pizzazz than F83, F-PC is your logical choice. BTW, the most recent version of F83 _is_ about a 1984 date. You can get F-PC from the Forth Interest Group or from CH Ting's Offette Enterprises or direct from Tom Zimmer, I believe, if you can't find a BBS that has it. ------------ PORTED FROM uucp => ---- Looking for versions of Polack's FPT-F83.ARC and F83 that run together. I would like an 8087 interface in forth. I tried F-PC and the program was too big to load on my 256k Sanyo MBC 555 (IBM compatible) machine with two 360k drives. -- Jina Chan To: well!gars@LLL-WINKEN.LLNL.GOV sphinx@milton.u.washington.edu Subject: Re: 8087 interface We are currently trying to port forth archives to Simtel20. I think F83 is already there. I am going to post your inquiry and my reply to ForthNet for confirmation. Gary uunet!swbat!texbell!ark!lrark!glsrk!gars <- my own unix sys ------------ From: STEPHEN MINTON Subj: F83 (L&P) CP/M VERSION I am in need of downloading the latest available version of F83 (L&P) for CP/M (I have 1.00). Where would I find this, and was it updated to 2.10 like the PC version? Thanks! ------------ From:GARY-S To: STEPHEN MINTON There are several upgraded L&P F-83's available on GEnie and the CFB's for CP/M users. They did not follow the 2.10 version notation, but have such additons as full screen editors and alphabetized word lists. You may prefer to look at the silicon valley fig (John Peters) disks posted on GEnie and the CFB's and roll your own. There is also the Australian M-20 you may wish to consider. It accepts text files. Gary ------------ From: SCOTT ROBERTS Subj: FORTH SOURCE FOR 8088 Does anyone know of a forth system that would be suitable for storing in ROM of a controller based on the intel 8088? If I could get an assembler source listing, etc I could modify it to suit my system. Thanks in advance, Scott Roberts ------------ To: SCOTT ROBERTS From: JERRY SHIFRIN You might want to look into the ZenForth files available on the CFB's/GEnie and perhaps even get in touch with Martin Tracy (their author). I understand that Zen has been successfully ROM'd into various environments. ------------ From: IAN GREEN Subj: CMFORTH Anybody seen a cmForth system for DOS? I currently only have F-83 in my tools directory and would like a copy of cmForth to fiddle with. Ian Green ------------ A brief look at some of the kernels posted to library 4 will satisfy most all that there is likely a public system available for your computer. It is but a modem call away. Some of the files for various computers include the following : ********************************* Number: 1710 Name: POCKET4.SIT Address: C.HEILMAN Description: This Macintosh Stuffit file contains the PocketForth vers. 4 application and Deck Accessory. Also includes a number of extensions source code files. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1647 Name: MX20.ARC Address: L Collins Description: Text based Forth for CP/M from Lance Collins MM FORTH --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1596 Name: GSFORTH.BQY Address: D.M.HOLMES Description: This contains the main file in the Apple GS Forth Demo Package. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1541 Name: STFORTH.ARC Address: ECFB Description: FORTH-83 version 1.0 for Atari ST distributed by the San Leandro computer club --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1846 Name: PURPLE.FORTH.BQY Address: J.PURPLE Description: FIG for the APPLE II series. This file has been compressed using an Apple specific compression technique. --------------------------------- Variety is also everpresent as evidenced by this incomplete list of ms-dos specific files. Note, I didn't even bother with the fig, L&P F-83 and UniForth sampler. ********************************* Number: 900 Name: BBL.ARC Address: GREEN.ECFB Description: This is Roedy Green's unique gift to the Forth world. It is a very fast 32-bit public domain ( except for military use ) Forth that uses multiple pointers. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1964 Name: F-PC35-1.ZIP Address: D.RUFFER Description: This is version 3.5 of Tom Zimmer's F-PC for MS DOS computers. F-PC is a turbo like environment for ms-dos Forth users. F-PC comes with an amazing array of support files. F-PC is easily the banner system for the Maxi-Forth proponents. Gary --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1939 Name: PYGMY12.ARC Address: F.SERGEANT Description: Here is Pygmy Forth version 1.2. It is faster, more accurate, and more compatable. It automatically sets up for COLOR or MONOCHROME monitors. Turnkey is much easier with DEFER'd BOOT. As always, it includes full source code, assembler, meta-compiler & documentation & STARTING FORTH compatability file. Pygmy is representative of the Minimalist approach. Gary --------------------------------- The arguments from those running Unix and Unix-like environments that there were no good Forth's available for them vanished sometime back with Alan Pratt's public domain cForth and Mitch Bradley's supported CFORTH-83. Here are two more recent entries for that arena. ********************************* Number: 2003 Name: BOTFTH68.ARC Address: GARY-S Description: botForth is another effort at a clean universal minimal Forth kernel. This is the 2/90 port to MC68k uP's. There are no associated Makefiles. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1944 Name: TILE Address: GARY-S Description: Mikael Patel's public domain f83 - written in unix shells. --------------------------------- Language is not necessarily, either. Witness these German and Russian Forth versions. ********************************* Number: 1576 Name: VOLKS4TH.ARC Address: K Schleisiek Description: Documentation for this is in German, so it's pretty hard for me to tell you anyting about it, except that it's for a PC. Here is the Copyright: Die Programme und die zugehrigen Quelltexte knnen frei verwendet werden. Das beinhaltet die Weitergabe und Nutzung der Programme und gilt selbstverstndlich auch fr Applikationen, die auf volksFORTH aufgebaut sind. Das Handbuch unterliegt dem Copyright (c) 1985 - 1988 Klaus Schleisiek, Ulrich Hoffmann, Bernd Pennemann, Georg Rehfeld und Dietrich Weineck. --------------------------------- ********************************* Number: 1737 Name: ASTRO4TH.ARC Address: D.RUFFER Description: AstroFORTH, from Russia, is a software development system for design software of different kinds. AstroFORTH includes the FORTH-83 language standard, extended by a number of service procedures and software packages, providing users with additional facilities. AstroFORTH may be used on IBM PC XT/AT compatible personal computers, equipped with the i8086/i8088 microprocessors. The system operates under the control of the MS DOS O/S. For the system to work one needs 128K main memory, a floppy/hard disk drive, a color/monochrome display controller and (if required) a printer. --------------------------------- I will end this session with evidence it would be difficult to imagine a computer environment there is not a Forth for. An argument has raged about the Forth-like qualities of PostScript, Adobe System's defacto graphics system. There are many features of PostScript that smack strongly of a Forth heritage. In answer to the arguments Mitch Bradley created a skelital version of Forth in... yep ! PostScript. ********************************* Number: 1995 Name: PSFORTH.02.90 Description: In response to messages from Doug Philips regarding why 'PostScript does NOT qualify as Forth', Mitch Bradley produced this very minimal Forth kernel entirely in PostScript lexicon. It is by no means a full system, but does contain the seed elements to write a full kernel from. ---------------------------------