Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 12/07/89   Time: 22:29EST

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[Dave] OLORIN]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Hadil] H.SABBAGH]
[[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS]
[[Robert] R.BERKEY]
[[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]
 
 7 December 1989 open FIGGY BAR. The question for the night: With all the
 arguments over 'Which Architecture' have we given up on the concept of
 Forth as a virtual machine ? Good/Bad/Don't care ?
 Other items discussed included various O/S's, block vs text,Harris contest,
 SigForth ACM newsletter and late FORML ad, John Hall guest conference on
 December 14, and a LOT of bad puns.

Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<OLORIN> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gary isn't answering. He is probably getting drunk
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hi - I was posting the notice etc
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <bad joke>
<[Dave] OLORIN> Len's been maligning your character in your absence.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I should after wrecking a new car
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gary & Dave, i found my problem in uploading
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is in my serial port on my PC. The mac works fine, 
modem also, line also
<[Gary] GARY-S> excessive head gap ? misadjusted nut - the one using the 
computer ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Nope, not this time
<[Dave] OLORIN> I must say I admire your self control. I haven't heard one word 
about the Cotton Bowl yet... (grin)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (It would take me half an hour to upload a mod. file
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have a killer bet with my boss in Murfreesboro, TN - that's 
enough
<[Gary] GARY-S> on the cotton bowl
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The bet, that is
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ah
<[Dave] OLORIN> The outcome of the Cotton Bowl: Arkansas vs Tennessee.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Arkansas/Tennessee
<[Gary] GARY-S> You have to live here to appreciate the gravity of the bet...
<[Dave] OLORIN> Football: It's not just a game, it's a way of life.
<[Gary] GARY-S> whoever has the losing team has to wear the baseball cap of the 
winner in public for two weeks
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <Wife just handed me a surprisingly good low-sugar dessert
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sweet potato & walnuts!>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gary thereally difficult bet would be if you bet against 
Arkansas!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Did you????????
<[Dave] OLORIN> Owwwwwwww! That is a *nasty* bet.
<[Gary] GARY-S> wash your mouth with carbolic acid
<H.SABBAGH> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> How 'bout them Arizona Wildcats?
<[Dave] OLORIN> I'm pulling for Arkansas! I want to make sure that Texas is the 
only team to beat them this year.
<[Dave] OLORIN> (grin)
<[Gary] GARY-S> groan
<[Dave] OLORIN> Watch out for the running Horns (surefire bet to make the Final 
Four) (he said putting his neck waaayyyyyyy out) (grin)
<[Gary] GARY-S> The horns will not even win the conference this year <period>
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Neither will the fins
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> :^)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Cats -> Final four for sure!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Forth time - well - what about the question ?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Forth *is* a virtual machine. But to do a lot of the really 
nice extensions you need to dig a little deeper.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> What question?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have all the answers, but I don't know the questions. 
What will it be, Gary
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> :-)
<[Dave] OLORIN> I gave my answer a while back. For *most* code, you use the 
virtual machine. Fore some of the extensions, it is important to know the
underlying architecture. Those cases should be carefully abstracted as far away 
from the code doing the work as possible.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Dave, what do you mean, abstracting..
<[Dave] OLORIN> Gary: Care for a bet? (Loser has to use the winner's team as a 
NAMe for two weeks) (grin)
<[Gary] GARY-S> The question is - with all the talk about 'which architecture' 
does this mean we have forsaken the concept of Forth as a virtual machi
ne ? Good/Bad/Don't care ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> the code far away from the code, that is
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I disagree. A language, by its definition, IS a virtual 
machine.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Figure out *why* you need to know the architecture. Then make 
words which handle that task. Those are the *only* words which should ch
ange dependent on the architecture. The rest of the code, which uses those 
words, should work fine on any architecture. (e.g. INTERNALS.SEQ is suppose
d to model this case)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanks
<[Gary] GARY-S> There you prove my point by espousing a F-PC only concept
<V.STAMPS> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Look, when you write a program in a language, you are 
forced...
<[Dave] OLORIN> Gary: No. The more efficient the underlying machine, the less 
"dirty" tricks we need to use to speed things up. If the implementation
of the virtual machine is good, we shouldn't need to take advantage of it as 
much as if it is bad (i.e. we won't need assembly code which takes advant
age of the model because the model should be fast)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> to use that langauge's "virtual machine".
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Implementing Forth on different architectures
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I guess we need you two to define your terms...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What exactly is a virtual machine?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> is an _overlay_ of the Forth virtual machine on top of
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> the architecture.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Gary: No. The whole point of the idea of abstraction is that I 
should be able to move the code from F-PC to another Forth, and *only*
have to change two files, PRELUDE.SEQ (which contains the cell size information)
, and INTERNALS.SEQ (which contains the threading and dictionary forma
t specific information). The specific tasks which need to manipulate those 
things use a set of words whose function does not change from implementatio
n to implementation.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I was speaking in more narrow terms than Hadil, obviously. I 
was refering to the environment of the native Forth
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I don't understand Gary's remark?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Which one ?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> "...the environment of the native Forth"
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Gary, let me give an example. The word THREAD, was written to 
place in the dictionary the threading information such that HERE EXECUTE
 would execute the Forth code typed in afterwards (essentially a headerless 
Forth word). I can use THREAD, freely, because I know its function. How it
 works varies from implementation to implementation, but what it does does not.
<[Gary] GARY-S> MMS is the only commercial product I am personally aware of 
that still runs as native forth - ie: not via Dos or some other bios
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>   No. File Name             Type Address      YYMMDD Bytes 
  Access Lib DLA
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Assalam, Hadil
<[Dave] OLORIN> (Jax, the Forth communities very own palindrome) (grin)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Aleikum assalam.
<V.STAMPS> 1ST TIME HERE
<[Dave] OLORIN> Welcome to the fray.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi, V! What's yer name?
<V.STAMPS> VIRGIL
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Look Gary, do you want _everybody_ in the world
<[Gary] GARY-S> type /nam virgil
<[Dave] OLORIN> Typing /nam Virgil will set your name.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Must be at start of a line
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> who wants to use Forth to give up their multitaskin **IX
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Virgil, are you a Vesta customer? Name sounds familiar.
<[Gary] GARY-S> No, Hadil, I do not - it was just tonight's point-to-ponder
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> and use a 16-bit machine with 1K blocks?
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> NO I AM A LONG TIME USER OF POLY FORTH
<[Gary] GARY-S> did you copy Hadil ?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Aha! Guess you like it. What's best about pF?
<W.BADEN1> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes. I did.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Dave, hearing nice things about your OOPS (which I have 
not unarced yet)
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> I'm familiar with how it works
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Unfortunately, I am not a Forth "purist" like most of you.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi Wil.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> That *is* a big plus, we'll admit, Virgil!
<[Gary] GARY-S> You have to **KNOW** I am not going to suggest trashing **IX
<[Dave] OLORIN> Jax, thanks. Have you got the second one (OO4TH21.ARC)?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Who's a purist?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I believe in using Forth on machines I can get my hands on
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hadil, UNIX uses 1k blocks, what's wrong with Forth 
doing same?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil - welcome back - no bored meeting tonite ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> 2nd Thursday of the month.
<APPERT> is here.
<[Dave] OLORIN> "I'm not a purist but I play one on the net" (grin)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> instead of having customers buy the latest Forth chip
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> and change their whole way of life.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Speaking of which, that Harris promotion looks too good to be 
true!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Jax: You're right. When was the last time you
<[Gary] GARY-S> Isn't that a BIG promotion ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> what Harris promo? Tell us about it
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> _thought_ about that while using vi?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> It is too good to be true. They were a little stuffy 
when I called today. Wasn't suppposed to be announced till 10 December.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Yeah. Big and nice!
<[Dave] OLORIN> Yeah, didn't you see the follow up message. Wait till Sunday.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The second message from Phil said as much. Jax
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hadil ... I have said many times, right here in this 
forum, that Forth programmers are lazy sots ... we should have written text
editors using BLOCK transparently *DECADES* ago.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, Gary, I knew that when I called. Jax is Bad Boy.
<[Dave] OLORIN> They are having a contest ($10,000 grand prize) for designs 
using the RTX-2001A. The nice thing is, you send an initial description, i
f it isn't a joke or a ludicrous idea, they *give* you a development system to 
design it on.
<[Gary] GARY-S> acid in a wound, did you say
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Wouldn't that kill the sacred cow of "words in blocks"?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Right, that's the part I like.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hadil, I write about , oh, 40 -100 blocks a week.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> They must be scared of the ShBoom!
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Blocks *are* nice thought-formatters!
<[Dave] OLORIN> I'm still trying to find out if multiple entries and/or 
software only designs are legitimate. (One way or another I'm getting one of t
hose development systems... (grin))
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> But I can use text files, too, No biggy.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <Len has used both blocks and text files since year 1 & 
still prefers blocks>
<[Kevin] APPERT> who did they tell about this?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm just saying, BLOCK is mistaken for the Forth editor, 
when in reality ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> BLOCK is Forth's VM interface.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> <Why does Len talk in this way?>
<[Gary] GARY-S> It's in Cat 6, Top 15 Kev
<[Dave] OLORIN> Phil Koopman sent out a message on comp.lang.forth. It will be 
officially announced next week.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <Len likes to taalk in 3rd person making parenthetical 
comments>
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> <<<< jax and len use the third person and arrows to make 
asides.
<[Dave] OLORIN> <---- Deep down, dyed in the wool, despiser of BLOCKs
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> <<< sort of conventional on GEnie.
<[Dave] OLORIN> And you *can* write VM code for Forth using streams, in fact, 
its easier.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Don't confuse blocks for source & blocks for virtual memory
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> OLORIN is C programmer in sheeps's clothing.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> ..:-)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, Dave, yer right.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Down here in Texas we call them Fightin' Words!
<[Dave] OLORIN> (grin)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It would be hard to beat Forth's v.m. system
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Look, F-PC has the right idea.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Really, the VM interface only matters in that BLOCK is 
easier to use IF YOU DON"T HAVE A HOST OS.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Although I will cheerfully admit that C does do a very nice job 
of paying the rent.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> BLOCK = Forth VM, but you can open any file.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> People forget Forth == C + Unix, I mean, Forth is an OS.
<[Dave] OLORIN> That I will grant you.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> It's host op systems that make the dichotomy apparent.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Just like in C, you can handle record-oriented files.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> At work ...
<[Dave] OLORIN> Jax, so is TRSDOS, that doesn't mean I use it that way.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> One of the features I have developed ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Well, a good caching system would probably do the same, 
but you could not compute addresses for things like CMOVE, etc.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> is launching programs, C, ASM, from our on-board FORTH.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> <<< Dave, TRSDOS is an OS, but it isn't programmable. 
Forth is.
<[Dave] OLORIN> One of these days Real Soon Now (maybe for the article which is 
almost but not quite past its deadline) I'm going to put some of the F
-PC features into a library of objects.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> That would be real cool Dave.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Jax: I've used it. It isn't an OS, it's a nightmare. (grin).
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Me too. Have a Model 4 in basement.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Right now it's either that or do an article on Huffman encoding 
using Forth.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Used it as terminal for Novix!!!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am still working on persistent objects.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Geeze - Hadil and Dave go into the Obese Forth pile.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Things are pretty busy at work though.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Not bad. TRSDOS beat the Apple II Os easy.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hadil, I forget ... what kind of work you do?
<[Dave] OLORIN> We prefer the term "Pleasingly Plump"
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Also Dave: I have some ideas for improving multiple 
inheritance.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom Zimmer announced a new target compiler at Asilomar &
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Not _real_ work; I'm finishing my Ph.D. in C.S.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> distributed source. It can write a program as
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> small as 1K!!!!
<[Dave] OLORIN> Hadil: Great! What do you have in mind?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Am I the only person supporting minimal Forth on this RTC ?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Len: When will you be uploading it to the library?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Gary: It's a tough job... (grin)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Good question , Len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gary, what do you mean by minimal? Minimal number of Forth 
words, or
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I agree with ya gary.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> minimal size of running program?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> the problem wit fat forths ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am still working on it.  I'll upload a coherent reply in 
a little while.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> is that ya start to be an expert in your forth, instead 
of Forth.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Forth's greatest virtue is its economy, whence all the other 
virtues come.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Jax: If OO extensions are in FORTH-83, whats the problem?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth programmers, the "true beliveers" came to Forth 
because they didn't want to be servants of their compilers. ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Its just an add-on to your 1-instruction Forths.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Unencumbered Forth, Len. F-PC is bigger than a lot of PC's
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> But Hadil, I have one of the largest Forths in the world 
on my machine: JForth
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> So I play both sides of the fence (JForth has OO, it's 
called ODE).
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I agree that F-PC is <way> too big, but
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So why are you giving me such a hard time? :-)
<[Dave] OLORIN> Hadil: I chose the method I did for two reasons... (1) It 
meshes nicely with the vocabulary structure and (2) I could come up with a t
heoretical sounding reason to rationalize away my implementation decision (grin)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I just mean that Forth per se ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that does not mean we should all go the opposite extreme
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> is easier to deal with when small.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> JForth has HUNDREDS of loadable options ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Dave: I understand.  I am trying to work out a way to
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> you can go crazy trying to learn them all!
<[Dave] OLORIN> Jax: I ain't no steeenkin' servant. It just takes a little 
longer to understand the innards of the bigger Forths.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> implement the equivalent of C++ "virtual classes".
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> The INNARDS are EASY in JForth. It's the OUTARDS.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> .. :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> This allows a class to inherit from two different classes
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <ha ha, Jax>
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> with a common ancestor.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have to tell you, though, I am really impressed with Roedy 
green's bbl
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> You C >> Forth guys are used to huge compilers.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Hadil. I thought of a few possiblities to explore to do that, 
but all of them started looking like more trouble than they were worth.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth programmers agree with Ritchie ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> and Thompson ...
<[Dave] OLORIN> Jax: I was a Forth programmer before I was a C programmer.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> "You can't trust any code you don't write yourself" ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Me too. I wrote a B-tree application for Apple ][
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm speaking tongue in cheek here ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (They said it couldn't be done ... :^))
<[Dave] OLORIN> Oh Bull, Jax. Forth programmers are, to use Ritchies words, 
fond of "unwarranted chumminess with the implementation".
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I just mean, Unix C can accustom one to a massive system.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You can't even trust if you DO write it yuourself!
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> It's a novelty to Forth programmers.
<[Kevin] APPERT>
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> (most Forth programmers).
<[Dave] OLORIN> *Just* because "Hello, World" is 43k long...
<[Dave] OLORIN> (grin)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Programmer's workbench, from whiich all modern Unix springs, 
was NOT humongous
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> I know the advantages of Fat Forth, I have an Amiga. 
JForth boots @ 165 K ( 3 k target applications)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Jax: au contraire. *N*X was, at its time, the _smallest_
<[Kevin] APPERT>
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> multi-user OS available.  And the _only_ portable one!
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> The smallest Unix ever got was bigger than the biggest 
pre-1980 Forth system.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> And Forth *was* multiuser.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> "Hello world" on F-PC is 43K long. Forth's edge is sharing the 
runtime package.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Some still are, right Virgil?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So why didn't it catch on? Eh?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> So there is no argument. FAT FORTHS are here in a big 
way. Only way to deal with Mac, AmigaOS, Unix, OS/2 ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> disconnected.
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> FORTH INC has a problem with the 64k barrier which giveme 
grief.
<[Gary] GARY-S>
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> ( it didn't catch on because AT&T wasnt' there pouring 
umpteen millions into it)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> <<< polyForht's problems are unique to polyForth + Intel 
8088 >>>
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> But AT&T _wasn't_ pouring $$$ into it until _much_ later
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Early to mid 80s. They lost a lot of $$$ because
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> it was easily disseminated.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Look, they financed it, gave it to universities, etc., 
every step of the way. They used it in house before that at own expense,
 whiil chuck moore was living hand to mouth in consulting jobs.
<[Gary] GARY-S> What's your point, jax
<[Dave] OLORIN> It was written originally on a surplus, cast-off Dec PDP-7 and 
only then because they needed a documentation machine.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth is as valid an approach as C + Unix. It can run in 
protected memory, i.e., my still-unrelaeased 68070 system.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Well, I've gotta go.  My asbestos suit is dirty again :-). 
G'nite.
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> anybody use the hc11?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> yes
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Hadil, I'm agreeing with you.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> has left.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Just that fat forth feels strange to Forth programmers.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Dave] OLORIN> But, Jax...you have such a confrontational way of agreeing with 
people. (grin)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> You bet!
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS>
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> ga Virgil.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Way to go, Jax.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> (thanx Wil, if ya ain't teasing :-)
<[Dave] OLORIN> That's ok... Forth programmers feel strange to just about 
everyone else (grin)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> (I never joke.)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "If you can't say something good about someone, come and 
sit by me and tell me all about it"
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> What happened? I seem to be alone??
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Who turned out the lights :-)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Speak, Virgil.
<APPERT> is here.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Appert Appeart!
<[Gary] GARY-S> <-still here
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> STA says Virgil is still here!
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS>
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS>
<[Kevin] APPERT> STA says Jax is NORMAL!
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Virgil, check your parity settings.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Try /sta at beginning of line, Virgil
<[Gary] GARY-S> we are just waiting for Virgil to start the new thread :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No it says he is GOLDEN!
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> bye yall
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> (( this happens to me all the time with parity settings. 
I bump a keystroke macro and bye bye))
<[VIRGIL] V.STAMPS> disconnected.
<[Gary] GARY-S> adios virgil
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Must be on his way to guide Dante ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> cute
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Getting down into hell is easy, getting back up is hard
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil, who said that?
<[Dave] OLORIN> He'd better bring the Tropicana.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I asked Wil, because the original was in Latin
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> (I believe it's Roman First Century BC.)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Everyone see the latest SIGForth ACM ? with the announcement 
for FORML - three weeks past and dead announcement
<V.STAMPS> is here.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Welcom back@!
<[Dave] OLORIN> Nope. My copy isn't here yet (it might have gotten caught in 
the membership renewal time slip).
<[Gary] GARY-S> can you see clearly now virgil :-)
<V.STAMPS> It just suddenly stopped working, and I hung up.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <On a clear disk you can seek forever>
<[Dave] OLORIN> Who looks to be able to make it to this years Symposium?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Now I ask you - why announce a past event !?!?!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Almost certainly
<[Dave] OLORIN> Because you ran late to press???
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Assume you mean ACM SigForth
<[Kevin] APPERT> Len, do you pay St. Silicone for the copyright?
<[Gary] GARY-S> bad planning
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, we both got it from another source
<[Dave] OLORIN> Kevin: Is that the patron saint of exotic dancers?
<[Gary] GARY-S> explain to the masses
<[Kevin] APPERT> oops, St. Silicon
<[Dave] OLORIN> (heh)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Breast implants are made of silicone, not to be confused
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with silicon.
<[Kevin] APPERT> local comedian with a lot of computer jokes...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> In San Francisco, once a year they celebrate St. 
Stupid's Day.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A very funny man.
<[Kevin] APPERT> author of the binary bible.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Right. Brings a *whole* new meaning to the term... Silicone 
Valley
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Len, ask Virgil if Virgil #1 wrote it.
<[Kevin] APPERT> IS YOUR DATA SAVED?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Will check Roget. brb
<[Dave] OLORIN> Nope. He's still running around in the land of bad syndicated 
television? (ducking)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Only len would check his thesaurus
<[Virgil] V.STAMPS> If I'm a poet, I don't know it...
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil - I got back to you on that file, didn't I?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Although this here verse, it sure does show it...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Indeed it was Virgil!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He also said, Love conquers all
<[Gary] GARY-S> Effigy - isn't that just east of Dallas
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and "Faithful Achates"
<[Dave] OLORIN> I thought it was a little South Pacific island as pronounced by 
Canadians.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> among about 40 other quotes.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Testicles was the father of Pericles.
<[Gary] GARY-S> hahahahahaha
<[Kevin] APPERT> pair of what?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS>
<[Dave] OLORIN> Well one would *certainly hope so*!
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Did you know Omar Khayyam was a Forth programmer?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How so?
<[Kevin] APPERT> howso Jax?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> "So when that Angel of the darker Drink" ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> "At last shall find you at the River-brink" ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> And, offering his cup, invite your soul" ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Gary, I just figured it out. You mean the Dijkstra. Yes. I got 
your message.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> "Forth to your lips to quaff - you shall not shrink."
<[Gary] GARY-S> <a-r-r-r-rg-h>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My next vacation will be on Noman
<[Kevin] APPERT> "Forth programmers with thier colons think"  (Burma shave)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yes Wil - that file :-)
<[Dave] OLORIN> Is that like the Reagan typewriter?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Len ... Noman is an Island, I've heard.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Did you enjoy it?
<[Dave] OLORIN> (no memory and no colon)
<[Kevin] APPERT> no memory, no colon
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Noman You got it, Jax
<[Virgil] V.STAMPS> has left.
<[Kevin] APPERT> couldn't take it
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yes - it is apropro too
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Some people can't take a joke.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The czarist police banned an archeological work about 
Nebuchadnezzar
<[Dave] OLORIN> What about the hot peppers from Forth Worth, Texas?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Wish he'd taken a few of these and left with them.
<[Kevin] APPERT> why, Len?
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Why, Len?
<[Dave] OLORIN> No bucking the czar.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ne Bog i ne tsar.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> because "Ne bog et ne tzar" means "No God and No King" in 
Russian
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (True story)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> If you have a good idea, run with it!
<[Gary] GARY-S> This last five minutes belongs on finky's Tell-a-Joke RT 
instead of Forth
<[Kevin] APPERT> is there one, Gary?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yes - there sure is, kev
<[Gary] GARY-S> Type TeleJoke to get to it
<[Dave] OLORIN> I had some friends in the SCA who went to a convention in 
modern gear (i.e. semi-auto weapons, assault rifles, etc). They spent three
days explaining to a backwoods sherriff (Who had heard about "them people in 
that there Society for Creative Anarchy") and the FBI that *weapons with
barrells fillerels filled with lead * don't shoot well.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Uhmmm...plattitudes ok, gary?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> An Australian mammal?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Once again I regret not being here for our guest next week.
<[Kevin] APPERT> with an attitude?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Go Forth-Rightly into the world... Go Forth and conquer... Use 
the Forth luke... March ever forthward into the fray...
<[Dave] OLORIN> Forth-t in war, Forth-t in peace, Forth-t in the core of the 
CPU?
<[Dave] OLORIN> Forth score and seven years ago...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Len, I have a story just like that Russian story from 
Roman history.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ohhh - thanks for the reminder... December 14 - in conference 
on GEnie, John Hall to tell us where the money is going and what the boa
rd is doing for FIG
<[Gary] GARY-S> be here !!!
<[Dave] OLORIN> "We'll send that one back to committee for Forth-er review... "
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> When Nero was in the last year of his fitful reign ...
<R.BERKEY> is here.
<[Dave] OLORIN> We keep falling forth-er and forth-er behind.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Revolts sprung up against him in the provinces ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Which within a year ended his reign and his life ...
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> the first was a revolt of Gaul led by Vindex ...
<[Dave] OLORIN> ("Sire, the Peasants are revolting!", "Lad, I have always found 
the Peasants to be revolting...")
<[Gary] GARY-S> repeat - dec 14, John D. Hall - talks about FIG and FIG 
directions
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> So haters of Nero among the aristocracy who lived near 
the Palace ...
<[Dave] OLORIN> (Inventor of blue cleaning fluid)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> would get up late at night and pretend to be having 
trouble with their slave, and prretend to be threatening the slave ...
<[Dave] OLORIN> (the friends in the aristocracy lived near-o to the palace)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Yelling, "Vengeance is coming!" ("Venit Vindex")
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The italians used VERDI for "Vittorio Emmanuele Rey de 
Itialia"
<[Gary] GARY-S> Kev just asked about Titsler and Appart - they deferred til 
after Hanover, and will guest in Spring 1990
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in their struggle to unify Italy against the Austrians
<[Dave] OLORIN> Veni, Vidi, Vindex (I came, I saw, I did windows)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> All Gaul is quartered into three halves.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Atari will no longer register you as a developer unless you 
have a product.  Somebody wanna try and explain that?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Bob - no flmes lately - happy, tired or resting between killer 
strikes :-)
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Churchill agreed with Caesar, once, to the effect that 
DeGaulle should be divided in three parts (true).
<[Dave] OLORIN> Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100 foot clipper.
<[Kevin] APPERT> just working for tips, was he?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> In mourning for the lost portability of Forth.
<[JaXXaJ] FIGCHAPTERS> Shma Elizabeth!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> PGeriatic gynecologist: Spreader of old wives' tails.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Yep...I nearly was killed. He escaped by the skin of his... 
<never mind>
<[Kevin] APPERT> Forth, Dave?
<[Gary] GARY-S> LAST CAL FOR "FORTH" COMMENTS
<[Dave] OLORIN> Yeah, yeah, Forth. That was it, Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, we're having too much fun
<[Kevin] APPERT> see this is all relevent
=== End of Steno notes. ===