Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 11/29/90   Time: 22:35EST
Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[M.CHRISTOPH2]
[D.RUFFER]
[M.ZDANCEWIC1]
[N.DAVIS6]

   Items discussed include New Madrid fault, TCOM and F-PC updates, using 
   F-PC and TCOM, using editors LOOK and SZ, file handling, Leonard's help
   FIGGY's, Bill Muench conference, finding GEnie files, using stack handler.
Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Did you get my suggestions for round table speakers?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yes, THANKS
<[Gary] GARY-S> I haven't had a chance to follow up on any of them as yet
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Of course!
<[Gary] GARY-S> If things occur next week as predicted by Iben Browning it may 
not matter <grin>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Oh, yes the earthquake predictor.
<[Gary] GARY-S> He says the New Madrid will go on Tuesday
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is said that "Prediction is never difficult:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is either easy or impossible." Goodhart's rule
<[Gary] GARY-S> The New Madrid fault _will_ go again, of this there is zero 
doubt, I just think it is ludicrous to predict 'when'
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a. You are right, in the present state of knowledge.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> b. It is useless to predict, even if accurate, unless you 
                       have
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a plan as to what to do if the prediction is right, and
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> c. an estimate of the relative costs of getting out vs
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> bearing the damage.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> This problem comes up all the time in medicine, with
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> respect to screening procedures.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not on such a massive scale, of course.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I live in ohio!
<[Gary] GARY-S> I live in Arkansas
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Youch!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Your problem is that your building construction is not
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> earthquake proof, as ours is, more or less.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Very true - a LOT of brick facade structures - unanchored
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No large modern building was damaged here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right, like Mexico City.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yes
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mike: I gave your name to John Peters. He is trying to
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> get up a library of TCOM routines, and will communicate
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with you.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I love tcom.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He is former disk librarian for the Silicon Valley FIG 
chapter.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I spoke with Tom Zimmer today
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What's new with TCOM, Mike
<D.RUFFER> is here.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Well i just received an update.  Some new things are the ability 
to include a small forth nucleus to the com program for debug
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What number is your update?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> there are about 50 updates. It'll take a while to sift thru.  
Many of my bug fixes have been added to FPC
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Feels good to have helped alittle
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A lot!!!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Sounds like you made some rather significant contributions
<M.CHRISTOPH2> well I use forth about 12 to 16 hours aday for the last 4 years, 
i am finally learning a few things!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A common phenomenon in all kinds of learning, Mike
<[Gary] GARY-S> In what capacity ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> For a long time, new knowledge makes you more and more
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> aware of what you don't know, and you feel as if
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I still can't believe how powerful forth is.  I am a 
professional programmer and have used forth nearly exclusively for about 4 years
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you are going backwards. Finally, you pass that point!
<M.ZDANCEWIC1> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> M., please set your first name. We like to be informal
<M.CHRISTOPH2> That is so true.  I can not believe in over a year of use, not a 
single bug has been reported.  The host is in use 24 hours a day 7 days
a week at several places around the world. Not 1 bug!  It think it is weird
<D.RUFFER> Hi M., now we have two.  Could both you M's set your names?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Use /nam xxx at the beginning of a line.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> dont you?
<D.RUFFER> Mike, are you sure they are using it then <grin>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not weird, just good programming in a good language.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I don't think it is wierd - I think it is phenominal
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I cant believe some people beat up on forth for maintenance.  I
<N.DAVIS6> is here.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> My boss is very impressed.  We have part of the system in Unix/C 
and there have been a "few" bugs there
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> M. Zdankewic, and N. Davis, how much Forth do you know?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> but to be fair, there is alot more in the way of interupts 
involved there
<N.DAVIS6> hi
<M.CHRISTOPH2> and that is always bug prone
<N.DAVIS6> only a little
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I run the Sunday conferences, and they are desinged
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> for learners.
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> I've messed w/Forth from Vic-20, C-64, f83 and now F-PC
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I am the sole "host" programmer at our company some of our 
competitors have dozens doing what i do
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Next Sun. 5:30 Pacific Time.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Mike Christopher - Do you know Luther Huffman, also of Dayton ?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> no i dont who is he
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mike z. Great!
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Any good help for file handling w/F-PC?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> yea what do you need?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What is your problem?
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> I'm trying to build a simple data base to put in a time 
management app.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Boy, did you log on at the right Time !! M. Chris is one of the 
guys that helped debug the latest revision !
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Latest revision of what?
<[Gary] GARY-S> F-PC
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> TCOM & FPC
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I have entered the example from startinf forth and modified it 
some. There is an example of a card file What part of database do you ne
ed?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hope he gets back
<[Gary] GARY-S> Was it something I said ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Magic! Maybe lightning!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Maybe just Genie.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Did you check out    picture" that i u/l
<[Gary] GARY-S> M.C - do you use F-PC in your job or a commercial kernel ?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I use F-pc that i have custom tailored. I would never use a 
forth without source.
<M.ZDANCEWIC1> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Welcome back!
<[Gary] GARY-S> I heard that !!!
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Sorry guys, call waiting killed me!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yep!
<D.RUFFER> ah, that will get you every time mikez :-)
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> What did I miss?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mike C, can you answer Mikez's question about data base>
<[Gary] GARY-S> not much - Mike C was telling you about a F-PC data base he 
uploaded
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I keep 5 separate versions of my kernel forth One fiull system, 
one graphic system , one with the heads in expanded memory One tiny one
 (barely even forth!) and a 386 specific version
<[Gary] GARY-S> How tiny ? as small as the 15K eForth ?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> You know, the stuff i did with htrof IS a powerful report 
generator.  In a way the host is just a report generator.
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> How can I find Mike C's data base
<[Gary] GARY-S> use option 3 to browse the library with M.CHRISTOPH2 as 
uploader or F-PC as keyword
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I have not uploaded it for a while.  It is from the back of 
starting forth with enhancements.  I originaly wrote it for F83 but it coul
d be converted easy
<M.CHRISTOPH2> or you could load block support into fpc and probably use it 
without hardly any
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> OK, I'll hunt for it.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> changes. I added simple sorting to it and a few other goodies
<M.CHRISTOPH2> the card file example that comes with fpc is a good starting 
point too. What do you want?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Why don't you post the revised goodies, Mike C ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, FPC has a file BLOCK.SEQ, I believe, that gives you
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a full block system. Only one missing word, which is
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> CAPACITY that tells you the number of blocks in a file
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and it is easy to add.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I will.  Tell me waht you want I have alot of stuff.  I have 
some graphic routines that can handle large megabit virtual images too!
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> I've had to figureure out all the file I/O w/F-PC, and 
I've started a help file for myself.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Post it all ! Uploads are free and there is a lot of interest 
in the stuff you like to do
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (As we all have!)
<M.CHRISTOPH2> the file io in fpc is pretty powerful.
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Would anyone care to review it for me? It's only a 
couple of pages...
<M.CHRISTOPH2> sure
<[Gary] GARY-S> at your convenience, of course <grin>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mikez: I will prepare a little tutorial for Sunday, it's a
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I have added color text supoport to fpc in graphic mode too
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> little too complicated to type in on line!
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> I'm timid about uploading it, 'cause I don't know how 
right it is.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Does it work?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If it does, it is right!
<M.CHRISTOPH2> have at it.  Don't think that you would be the first person to 
make a mistake!  I have the market cornered
<[Gary] GARY-S> Actually Mikez, you're need is made to order for Len's Sunday 
gathering (sorry if I'm being presumptious, Leonard)
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Yep - I had to discover READ-WRITE and
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, that is my plan. I will work up a short tutorial, and
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> set my config.sys buffers up (I'm running dual floppy 
laptop)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> then we can discuss it online.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> did you see how you can one shot it or set it to a desired state 
permanently?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> One trouble is that DOS 2.x and up require that open
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Len - I will mail you my stuff and tell you more about 
my problems before Sunday
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> files be explicitly closed, or you run out of handles.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Good, MikeZ
<N.DAVIS6> great ideas
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I know. we have F-pc on networks and i had to tweek the editor 
to close a file after it is edited because it would hold up access for o
ther folks
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Yep - I flat ran out of handles. Also found the handle 
stack is different than file opening and closing.
<N.DAVIS6> i've got to go
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye. Hope to see you Sunday!
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I put a Closeall in my "bozo" quit loop
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> Why would one use or not use the handle stack?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> there are advantage to the stack if you are doing several file 
and only need access to the TOS file. There are a lot of extra "nice" wo
rds for the TOP of files
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Len will tell all, or at least as much as he can in 1 hour
<M.CHRISTOPH2> stack just like reg forth favors TOS
<[Mikez] M.ZDANCEWIC1> disconnected.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The word GETLINE works only with a file that is on
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hmmm - he needs to kill that 'call waiting' feature
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> the handle stack.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (I have a lot of work getting that prepared by Sun!!!!)
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Separate handles are more flexible.  I am always doing overlays 
and there are alot easire to use in that case.  There are special "buff
ered" words
<M.CHRISTOPH2> for the TOS
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Exactly, Mike.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I wish they had not written it that way. I could change
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> it but it would be a lot of work, and I have not had a
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> real need for it yet.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> file that are quite fast but you can simulate the same thing 
with your own buffering on a separate handle.  I find that I only use the
TOS files
<M.CHRISTOPH2> when I want someone else to do the CRLF parsing for me.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> or i am loading an overlay.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That is a frequent need, especially for file filters.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Yes but filters should quite definitely be done in tcom.  they 
are tcoms forte.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have one filter that was less than 2k bytes!
<M.CHRISTOPH2> And PDQ i bet!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Fast!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> BTW, I use SZ editor a lot. It lacks word wrap, and
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I typically test my filters and do all initial conceptual work 
in FPC then
<M.CHRISTOPH2> port it to tcom.  It give the advantages of both worlds!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am too lazy to add it. Do you have a version with that 
feature>
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Which feature
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Word wrap. It is present in the FPC editor, but Tom left it
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> out of SZ, and I miss it!
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I have written word wrapping for proportional fonts.  I am kind 
of an expert at that particular topic!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It's funny, but people who write program editors seem to 
think
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that word wrap is not necessary. This applies to biggies 
like
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Word Perfect, among others.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is essential for documentation.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> It should be trivial to steal the version from SED and apply it 
to SZ. Do you have SZ's Source
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Trivial in principle. ONe of these days I will get around 
to it.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Should be a drop in function, what's to do?
<[Gary] GARY-S> December 13 , Bill M., co-author of eForth will be our guest. 
He is a very interesting fellow to chat with, and I suspect that will be
 evident in the conference. His topic title should give a clue to his sense of 
humour.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Why do you use SZ instead of sed?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is small fast & easy to use. Great for modifying batch 
files
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and stuff like that.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have tied it into XTREE Pro Gold as its editor. Like
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> lightning, when compared to almost anything else.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have given it to several people, and they are all amazed
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> at its speed, and its power, given its small size.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I have put a nice little shell around LOOK.COM  the shell may 
not be that much But it shows an example of the warm fuzzy shells you can
 wrap around little come files.
<[Gary] GARY-S> What all do you do with this shell ? I'm quite interested
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Nice talking to you Well, i have been wraping shells around DOS 
command line programs.  I use the full power of FPC to ask for the para
meters in a friendly way
<M.CHRISTOPH2> and then I shell to that com or exe file with it's arcane 
-vtaqzC type of "switches"
<M.CHRISTOPH2> For Example, the one for Look.com open a window, describes what 
look does.
<M.CHRISTOPH2> Gets  the text to look for with full "line" edit text box
<[Gary] GARY-S> That sounds like you've managed to create a powerful 
programming tool that is also generally useful for more trivial tasks .... true 
?
<M.CHRISTOPH2> then asks for the file spec(s) in the same manner.  It then 
redirects the output tpo a file and calls LOOK.COM.  then it throws you int
o the editor looking at the redirected output of look.  Look tends to scroll 
off the screemn
<M.CHRISTOPH2> I use it on a variety of C programs to give them a friendly face.
  I use it for alot of things.  It is nothing complex realy.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Sure sounds convenient, though
<M.CHRISTOPH2> It is.  It is more productive for peoiple that dont use it every 
day
<[Gary] GARY-S> We need to wrap this up shortly
<M.CHRISTOPH2> ok I'll be chattin at ya later....
=== End of Steno notes. ===