Item    8145637                 89/11/27        10:07

From:   STENO.POOL                      RTC Stenographer Pool

To:     NMORGENSTERN                    N. Leonard Morgenstern

Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 11/26/89   Time: 21:53EST
Attendees:


[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS]
[[John] J.KNIGHT2]

Minutes:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>  Hi Jax
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi Len, How was Asillymar?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> v. good, I thought
<APPERT> is here.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> upload your PASCAL<>Forth yet?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Kevin. No Jax,
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi Len, Jax
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> <<< runs Assembler, don't be suprised
	if sudden  DISCONNECT
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi Kev.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I found a few typos, and need to clean
	them up. Will  upload tomorrow <editor's note: has been uploaded>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How do you mean, "runs assembler?"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <strange, CR does not transmit!>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <hence peculiar delays.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Kevin] APPERT> how was FORML, Len?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil Baden presented a very clear explanation of
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> CRC polynomials & how to compute them.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm assembling in another
     window, Len. Neat programs  that occasionally
     invoke the famous Amiga FIREWORKS_MODE :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> John Wavrik, a professor of Math at UC San Diego
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <thanx>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> uses Forth in analysis of polynomials
     and other math structures
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> where the latter can have very odd types of coefficients
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He finds that OOP in Forth does a lot for him, and he has
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> written a system to do that.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ting presented a radix sort that
     he says may be the fastest.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My objection is that he is sorting
     16 bit numbers, which is an
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> artificial process. A "real" sort will usually have to move
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> records, usually but not alwoays short.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom Zimmer has a new version of
     F-PC with hypertext  capability.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I plan to play with it soon if
     I can unpack it. It is on an AT type
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> diskette & my computer cannot handle it!
<[Kevin] APPERT> shall I send you a set of low density?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I would like that, Kevin
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom has also built a metacompiler which is on the disk
<[Kevin] APPERT> what address, Len?
<[Kevin] APPERT> (I had it, and lost it)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It uses only a very small kernel
     and the necessary words. He claims that
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> he can get final files that are only a few hundred bytes!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 304 Rheem Blvd., Moraga CA 94556
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <much appreciated, Kevin>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ting sometimes comes up with ideas that are so brilliant
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but so odd, you don't know what
     to think. He presented a very
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> nice "stack" of logical values
     which uses 1 word (16 bits) and
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> shifts in and out! (that is merely clever. What is
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> possibly brilliant is a suggestion
     that every data type have
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> its own stack. Thus ordinary integers,
     double itegers, etc. etc.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> This is a basis for object-oriented programming!
<[Kevin] APPERT> Ting and others have been proponents
     of that for some time.  There is a substantial
     literature on the subject of logic stacks, loop
     stacks, string stacks, and so on ad titanium (hard to say how far on,
     that is)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <my explanation is abbreviated.>
<[Kevin] APPERT>   Tom uses JSR-threaded code, and
     when he uses a Forth word, the code for it is
     brought in from the 'library' if possible.  If
     not possible, it is defered and the forward references are resolved later.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> pliz to xkooz, send window
     into space, must pause to reboot.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> disconnected.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kevin, that is exactly right. I could not read the fast
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> notes that I took at Asilomar
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am waiting for Jax to come back
<[Kevin] APPERT> the other neat thing about the current
     release of FPC is the use of mess-dos style paths
     for source and load files.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I don't think there has been substantial
     change since the Nov. 4 'Forth Day
<[Kevin] APPERT> ' to FPC
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom says this version has not
     been changed from a few weeks ago!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> So you are right.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> John Peters came up with a great
     idea worth thinking about. A fellow
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> from Finland gave a very nice
     talk, and afterwards, he was asked
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> how he got interested in Forth.
     He said he read Brodie's book in the
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> who was fellow from Suomi?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> <finland>
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He was the only Finn there. One
     woman from China currently working in
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Switzerland, several Germans
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Lots of Canadians
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> <you know their national anthem:
     "Suomi, how I love ya, how I love ya, my dear old Suomi">
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Who was Finm?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <arrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhh>
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Finn
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> brb
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> tnx
<[Kevin] APPERT> what's new with you, Jax?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> In what department?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Antero Taivalsaari, Saynatsalo, Finland
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Really?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Saynatasalo is the city)
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> sonofagun.
<[Kevin] APPERT> what kind of assembler you running?
     or is it the program you are testing
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Running CAPE on the Amiga.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> CAPE?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> assembler.
<[Kevin] APPERT> this a product?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> yes
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Aah
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> assembling lotsa neet stuff.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> So what did Anti have to say
     at Asilomar aside from "Forth is neat".
<[Kevin] APPERT> (except when it gets messy)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> His talk was on a new Forth named Cool
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with object oriented features. COOL is an acronym
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> for "Coherent object-oriented language"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> They wrote this in Finland?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yep
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Veddy Interesting!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I guess they produce more than architects.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> What was his connection with this?
<[Kevin] APPERT> reminds me of the laser builders next
     door to my shop.  The back door says " Coherent Employees Only! "
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I don't know. He is quite young, only a student.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Ruff of hair on top of his
     head, grey suit, right? Pleasant smile.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>  University of Jyvaskylya
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>  University of Jyvaskyla
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (sic)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (first spelling was sick)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <pun, please laugh>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil Baden ran a contest, "How is Programming like sex?"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Prize for best answer.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> So this Antero, about 6 feet
     tall, ruff of brown hair on top of head, probably
     nice grey two-peice suit?
<[Kevin] APPERT> sounds like a copyright violation
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> About 6 feet 2 inches, I have rarely seen anyone so blond
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and wearing pants and a shirt.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (no tie)
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> ok, thanx
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (As usual, the only spiffy dressers were Glen Haydon and
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Martin Tracy.)
<[Kevin] APPERT> I like my answer (Because if you arn't
     REALLY enjoying yourself, you must be din  doing it wrong
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That was given. The wives & companions
     were allowed to enter too
<[Kevin] APPERT> Bob Smith wasn't nattily attired?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My favorite was "It's no fun if you do it with UNIX"
<[Kevin] APPERT> gaaaaaaaaaaaa
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (not a prize winner)
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> what won?
<[Kevin] APPERT> what won?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> great minds think alike
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Baden said his wife disqualified
     it because of what she thought
<[Kevin] APPERT> and Jax and I also
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> was a misspelling!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (I don't remember the winner!)
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> <let's kill him, kevin>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (A eunuch is someone who is cut out to be a bachelor)
<[Kevin] APPERT> nnnaaaaaaaa
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I must tell you John Peters' great idea
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> programming is like sex in
     that Forth programmers get it up faster ... :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax you might have won!
<[Kevin] APPERT> ... and do it mostly for self-gratification
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 1 bottle of wine
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> This Antero was telling how he
     got started in Forth by reading
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Brodies book in the library. John
     said, Why don't we donate
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> copies to lots of libraries.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Somebody else said, we might be the Gideons of Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But I think this has a LOT of merit!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <sorry, CR didn't work!>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A few hundred dollars might go
     a long way to recruit youngsters.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I know that at one time (not so young) I read everything
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> our library had on computer science -- not much
<[Kevin] APPERT> many librarys would just throw it
     out.  it is not, after all, a C book.  in a decade
     or so, there will be a ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kevin, you may be right, but the idea should
<[Kevin] APPERT> small government department dedicated
     to the burning of subversive literature, like Brodie.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> be explored, not abandoned out of hand.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do either of you get PC Magazine?
<[Kevin] APPERT> perhaps a library discount?  or at
     least a tear-off card they have to send in
<[Kevin] APPERT> something to say "we want this, and
     are going to put it on the shelf so people can
     use it".  signed by a responsible officer, if possible
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> John Dvorak praised VP Planner! He probably doesn't know
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that it was written in Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Kevin] APPERT> John doesn't like Forth?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He is a real Forth-basher1
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He is a real Forth-basher!
<[Kevin] APPERT> what has he said?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I can't quote, it was some time
     ago. It came up when he heard
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> about the new chips that run Forth.
     He said that they were silly
<[Kevin] APPERT> all those people using C can't be wrong!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to run such an obscure language.
     If they had a chip that ran in C
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> then they would really have something.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <or words to that effect>
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> "ran in C
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS>  ??
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS>  :-)
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> The SC32 executes C quite nicely.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> So does RTX
<[Kevin] APPERT> what about the PDP-11?  C is a souped-up
     macro assembler for  that language
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Dvorak said that Forth had
     been presented as a panacea.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But the chip's "native" language is Forth (or very close)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He did also say that.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The 8086 runs C nicely, too, but that is not the point, Jax
<J.KNIGHT2> is here.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Good Knight!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Sir Knight!
<J.KNIGHT2> <g>how original
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm sure you have heard it many times!
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> The 8086 runs C lousy. like it runs everything else.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But no lousier
<J.KNIGHT2> I can't remember whether it was 3 or 4 times
<[Kevin] APPERT> this always makes me a bit uneasy
     when I see people selling Forth, Jax.  As you
     know it is not a panacea.  It's just a nice sharp
     tool, with which more than a few people have slit thier own throat
     (or thoat, if on mars)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> More like 3000 or 4000 probably
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> As panaceas go, it's a winner.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> J. Please set your name. We like to be informal
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Type /nam John or whatever at the beginning of a line.
<J.KNIGHT2> how? I usually conf on CI$
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You got it!
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Thanks
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you use Forth?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Is there a topic?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, "why is programming like sex"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have been reporting on the Asilomar Conference
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That was a contest that Wil Baden held
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I'm just (that's with a capital J) learning
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Answer--Because it's easier to talk about than to do.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Interesting: almost all the submissions were anonymous!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How much Forth have you learned?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Very little. I started realizing
     that Basic wasn't what I wanted...
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> And the others seemed like mountains
     to climb and there was...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What Forth are you using?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> All the little things that said
     it was easy and powerful
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I am using pigmy forth because it
     is small and I figure that ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> easy?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you have any specific problem or questions?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> As I learn it I can put it in my
     Portfolio and take it with me.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> It seems to be but without knowing others it's hard to say..
<[John] J.KNIGHT2>
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Too many to really even start to
     ask. I reading STARTING FORTH now.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A good start (no pun intended)
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I think you're right. Some of the
     things I'm writing don't seem to be on the screen
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> After you write a program, how do you compile it to a .com?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I don't know about Pygmy. F83 has a special word to do that
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> What is the word?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It is called SAVE-SYSTEM. You
     will have to look at your manual for the
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Forth that you use.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There is no standard for that word
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Pigmy uses almost all of the F83 commnands.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I need something small because the Portfolio is very small.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You can try it. I don't think it can hurt anything.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> If you want a program to auto-start,
     instead of being invoked once loaded by ath last
     word you defined, you have to tweak the BOOT word, too.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right, Jax. That should also be in the manual
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will download Pygmy and look at it, then I can
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> You have a Forth with a manual? :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> answer those questions.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in more detail.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I get the impression that operating
     system in Forth has a different meaning in Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> In F83 you would write, for example, SAVE-SYSTEM FOO.COM
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The reason for that is that the
     older Forths were their own operating
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth was meant to be its own OS, John ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> system. Only in the last 6-7 years
     have we had Forths that run UNDER operating systems
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> In the beginning you mean?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> many Forths tend to coesxist only fitfully with host OS
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, John and frequently they still are .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Forth antedates most operating
     systems, It was the beginning, John
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I work in embedded control.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I just finished a single board
     computer with Forth as the complete OS.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Forth started out under operating
     systems, then was applied to a class of problems
     in which the operating system was in the way...
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> You mean directly addressing the BIOS, etc.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> What Forth really is conceptually
     is an OS that is programmable down to the assembly level.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I mean, John ...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> THat there Ain't No Durn BIOS!
     It's Forth, and that's it. I wrote it.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> That's the original Forth idea.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right, that approach is avalable if you need to use it,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> as Jax does quite often (and others too)
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Starting Forth is, of course, very
     elementary--what is the next book I should look at?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Brodie's book still has traces of the old point of view.
<[Kevin] APPERT> "why should I wait for some system
     programmer's idea of a timely response to my request
     for this disk block?  The retrace time on this
     video is short and I nead it NOW!"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kelly and Spies
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Thinking Forth is good, same
     author. Better in fact than Starting Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> and "THINKING FORTH"
<[Kevin] APPERT> beat me to it , Jax
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Threaded Interpretive Languages
     by Loeliger, Byte books, 1978, is good.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Very good, but not, I think for a beginner, Jax
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Also download Jack Brown's (J.BROWN11) LESSONS
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth itself, a good commercial
     system, is the best teacher, ...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> also attendance at a Forth Interest Group chapter ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> " FORTH TOOLS"  contains usefull examples
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth programmers tend to be self-taught.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Loeliger was the second Forth book I read. Showed me 
exactly how Forth worked.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Why didn't it become more popular?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jack Brown is a math professor in BC (Canada) who has
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth didn't have AT&T backing it, like C does.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> written excellent tutorials
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Also, Forth has some disturbing
     things to say about how computer science views
     the world. Not popular with academics for thatreason!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Also, Forth "really is a different
     language" as I like to say
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and it seems strange to rigid
     thinkers, who contitute the majority
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> of programmers.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> What do you mean JAX?
<[Kevin] APPERT> most programmers tend...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I mean Forth has a one-pass
     left-to-right parser, for instance. Makes parsing theory look asnine.
<[Kevin] APPERT> to use language which they...
<[Kevin] APPERT> are taught in school...
<[Kevin] APPERT> like C and Fortran...
<[Kevin] APPERT> Pascal is dying out now, but...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> not so.
<[Kevin] APPERT> for a while people actually thought it ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> was a usefull tool for solving problems...
<[Kevin] APPERT> because it was almost ...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth also suggests that a
     lot of programming teams could be a lot smaller
     if they used Forth, another disturbing concept to rigid thinkers.
<[Kevin] APPERT> universally accepted in schools.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> John, why don't you EMAIL questions
     to me, and attend these Sunday
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> conferences as often as you can?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> The main problem NOW with Forth
     is that C and C-based op systems are already in
     place, and putting up Forth in the same situations
     would be re=-inventing the wheel.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I gota go.  night all
<[Kevin] APPERT> has left.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My function as sysop is to run
     learning conferences, like this one
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye Kevin
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth can do everything C can
     and a damn sight easier, but you know how it is
     when there are entrenched interests.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth keeps popping up here and there.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I suspect that Forth can do some
     things easily that C can do with
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> THe SUN 4 boots itself with FOrth, then loads UNIX.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> great difficulty, Jax
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> However someone who works for a
     living would use the best tools he could fine wouldn't he?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I know NO unemployed Forth programmers.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> <<< worked in Forth for years. Need work?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I didn't mean that <blush>
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Well, it's a valid question.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Anyway, yes, use the language that pleases you.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> I am on a 68000 assembly language binge these days.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My experience with Forth programmers
     is that they are a very varied
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and lively bunch.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not all young either.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I meant that a carpenter uses the
     best tools the can afford not just the most popular
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> at home I haven't loaded Forth
     in weeks! (still use daily at work, though).
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Also used C, Lisp, Prolog, others.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ah, but often the boss says, WE DO IT IN C
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, the carpenter neither
     praises nor blames its tools.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> So you have the right attitude, John.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> No but he chooses his tools carefully.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Right.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> What FORTH do you suggest that I learn on?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Luckily, there are modern host-OS-compatible
     Forths for every popular architecture.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What machine do you have?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> If you are a DOS programmer,
     F-PC Forth is "stylish" these days ...
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> At home I have a 386, at work 8088,
     and the Portfolio is a 8088
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> if you are a pro, you would
     use HS-Forth, LMI Forth or polyFORTH for the DOS world.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> F-PC is big, Jax. It decompiles
     to a couple of megabytes
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> if you run OS/2, you want UniForth from LMI>
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> What is ZenForth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Zen Forth is an attempt to incorporate the latest standard
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> That's a nice PD forth by Martin
     Tracy, but it's like learning jazz first before you learn classical.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in as small a Forth as possible
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I don't think it is good for starters.
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> I am looking for small, that's why I looked at Pigmy..
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Zen is 3 - 4 k
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> [Pigmy] was supposed to be compatable with f83 and smaller
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> My favorite for "easy forth"
     is F83S6 which is here in the library.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Too small sometimes means featureless & hard to use
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will look at Pygmy
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> download F83S^.ARC and the
     file WILSEDIT.TXT to explain the FABULOUS screen editor.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> oops, F83S6.ARC, should be.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> F83S is an extension of F83 with
     a lot of nice features
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Best forth blockfile editor in existence.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Big but not gigantic
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> like what
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> ...???
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> the nice features?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Oh, it has such things as sorted
     word lists, a v. good editor
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (as Jax mentioned). It's been
     several years since I used it.
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Have you visited Atlanta FIG?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You can HUNT, which is like FIND
     but scans for parts of words
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> What are there so few FIGS. I'm
     in atlanta and the closest BBS I fould find was far far away?
<[John] J.KNIGHT2> Does it have a sponsered BBS?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax do you have the Atlanta Fig address ?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> The ATLANTA FIG Chapter Coordinator is John Hennenfent, 
(404) 393-3010
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> John, Jax is Fig chapter coordinator.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (for the Fig international )
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Excuse, that is Nick Hennenfent, not John H.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax, John, I do have to leave.
     Jax, why don't you capture & down load
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to me <upload that is> if there is anything of interest?
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> Not all FIGs have BBSes, btw.
     We do in Denver, though. (303) 278-0364 3/12/24
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> ok, len.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> gnite hope you had ...
<[JAX.ASM] FIGCHAPTERS> a happy tanach's-giving ... :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Night, all. John, come back, and also attend Thursday 
conferences!
=== End of Steno notes. ===