Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 11/08/90   Time: 22:42EST
        Items discussed include: The effect of Star*Services on computer
        RT's, Aladdin, GUI's and icons, Team-Atari Forth, Higher Order
        Languages from a Forth platform (Lisp, Pascal,...)
Attendees:
[[gars] GARY-S]
[[Bill] B.MARCUM]
[[Bill] W.WOOD17]
[V.STAMPS]

Minutes:
<[/Gary] GARY-S> note on the door reads .. What's bothering you (regarding 
Forth) these days ? Big gripe or minor peeve - share your favorite aggrivat
ion as you enter the room tonight.
<B.MARCUM> is here.
<B.MARCUM> I just logged on and happened to notice
<B.MARCUM> that the RTC was scheduled for tonight
<[gars] GARY-S> This is the first time for no-shows in a long time.
<[gars] GARY-S> Next week at this time Alan Furman will be here in a guest 
conference
<[gars] GARY-S> We can sure talk about Forth if you'd like - that's what I'm 
here for <grin>
<B.MARCUM> Has Star*Service had much effect on the attendance in RTC?
<[gars] GARY-S> yes - mostly negative. It has also affected the BB here and in 
some other computer RT's
<B.MARCUM> I know I spend hours in areas that I never visited before S*S, like 
the SFRT.
<[gars] GARY-S> thanks - yeah, but if you have a need or desire to explore a 
favorite computer language or architecture, that's hard to get in SFRT or
 CHAT
<[gars] GARY-S> Aladdin is another *HOT* RT
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> That's true.
<[gars] GARY-S> Do you use it yourself ?
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> I can't use Aladdin with my computer.
<[gars] GARY-S> I don't on mine either - a 3b1
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> That's an AT&T Unix computer, right?
<[gars] GARY-S> yes - the 3b1 is an AT&T (Convergent Technologies, actually) 
Unix box
<[gars] GARY-S> Everything in computerdom is moving toward scripts and GUI's - 
user interfaces are the wave
<[gars] GARY-S> Jef Raskin, a guy that had a lot to do with the current use of 
icons (having originated the MAC) had some pointed things to say about
them when he was our last guest
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> What did Jef Raskin say?
<[gars] GARY-S> He said that the icons end up cluttering the screen and don't 
really do the job as intended - the transcript is in the library (RASKIN
.TXT or RASKIN.ARC)...
<[gars] GARY-S> although at the time they were the right approach.
<[gars] GARY-S> He thinks the Canon CAT did a much better job of the 
man/machine interface but Canon had no idea what they had and mis-marketed it
<[gars] GARY-S> Te CAT ran Forth
<[gars] GARY-S> What do you do - job wise and Forth-wise
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> Job wise, I'd rather not say (minimum wage).
<[gars] GARY-S> It beats the unemployment line - there's a lot of that these 
days
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> Forth wise, I've read a couple of books (Starting Forth and 
Thinking Forth) and played around
<[gars] GARY-S> What computer ?
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> with a PD version of Forth on my Atari 800xl
<[gars] GARY-S> ahh , one of the best introductory Forth columns I ever 
followed was Atari oriented - the older 8-bits
<[gars] GARY-S> 'Ask Mr. Forth' based on the PD Team-Atari Forth
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> That's the one I have.  I've been thinking about updating it 
to Forth-83, and supporting the newer 8-bit machines
<[gars] GARY-S> Team-Atari had a Forth-79 flavor if I remeber correctly. Good 
Forth. I still have a copy somewhere, and no machine to run it on
<W.WOOD17> is here.
<[gars] GARY-S> There were actually 16 W.Wood's before you ? Interesting
<[gars] GARY-S> We are just chatting so join in at will
<W.WOOD17> *sigh* Guess I'm new kid on the block here, eh? -o
<[gars] GARY-S> Bet it's cold in Crystal, Minn !
<W.WOOD17> A little brisk tonight - 33 F;  This is the first time I've been to
<W.WOOD17> one of these; what's the topic(s) -o
<[gars] GARY-S> anything you want it to be - Forth oriented
<[gars] GARY-S> what DO YOU DO IN FORTH
<[gars] GARY-S> Didn't mean to shout <grin>
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Actally, I'm returning to it after a few yrs. absence.  Right 
now I'm
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> interested in compiling HOLs into Forth.  What're y'all 
involved with? -o
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> What are HOLs?
<[gars] GARY-S> I work for a company that's a neighbor (sort of) of yours - 
DataCard
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Sorry, jargon.  HOLs are Higher Order Languages, like Lisp, 
Prolog, Pascal. -o
<[gars] GARY-S> There's a couple of files in our library that may interest you 
then - a couple of Object oriented Forth projects and a Pascal routines
 in Forth, I know of
<[gars] GARY-S> Also some stuff on neural nets
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Right now I'm consulting on a project to compile a BASIC-like 
language
<[gars] GARY-S> what on ? what architecture ?
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> tailoerd for embedded control into Forth for the run-time.  
The choice of
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> source language was *not* mine. -o
<[gars] GARY-S> It isn't that hard to call Forth with BASIC. One of my Sinclair 
kernels did just that - on a 2068
<[gars] GARY-S> Took about 16 lines total, the rest was all Forth
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> The customer wants to use V33(?) or a Japanese 286 like 
processor.  The
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> bus and other interface architecture is Honeywell's.
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> What we're doing is using an optimizing compiler to compile 
the pseudo-BASIC
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> into P-Code; I suggested using Forth instead of a home-grown 
P-Code engine
<[gars] GARY-S> You sure seem to be going about this the hard way - or is there 
a compelling reason to build from compiled pseudo-BASIC (whatever that
 is)
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> since Forth was more efficient. So we'll change code 
generation to put out
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Forth.  Well, the customer specified the BASIC before hand; 
that's fixed.
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> The home-grown P-Code engine ran like a rock, and the 
customer has fairly
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> tight performance reqs.  So-o, it seemd (and still seems) 
easiest to change
<[gars] GARY-S> I'm still curious if there's a real reason why the customer 
wants it that way  - oh familiarity
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> the target language and use a good Forth run-time.  Also, the 
customer is
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> enchanted with the idea of putting a Harris chip in and 
improving
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> performance more. -o
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> yeah, I think you're right about the familiarity thing. -o
<[gars] GARY-S> I presume the code is proprietary and coveted ? If not share 
some of the learned wealth in the library - uploads are free (except for
your time)
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Well, I may  be able to show some early prototype code. :-) -o
<[gars] GARY-S> That'd be great - text files about why I wouldn't do this again 
are also valuable :-)
<[gars] GARY-S> Before I close things down tonight - what are you two's pet 
peeves with things Forth - this can be this board, the ANS committee, or 
some code quirk
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> re your query -- I'm somewhat skeptical about this 
standardization thing;
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> I'm not at all convinced this will be a good thing for Forth. 
 Casting into
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> concrete hasn't been all that good for lisp, IMHO. -o
<[gars] GARY-S> Bill Marcum - you are just getting started in Forth - what 
really bugs you so far ?
<[gars] GARY-S> The _real_ bottom line is some vendors need a ANS or IEEE 
standard language to bid on government jobs - nuff said ?
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> My pet peeves would mostly pertain to the antiquated version 
of Forth I'm using
<V.STAMPS> is here.
<[gars] GARY-S> That's where your experience is - what is it about team Forth 
that hacks you off ?
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> ??? What's team Forth? -o
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> It doesn't let me read files on other disks, and I can't use 
my moem with it (Team Forth is an old PD Forth for 8-bit Ataris)
<[gars] GARY-S> You can all continue to visit, but I have to close the steno 
and go.
<[gars] GARY-S> Thanks for showing Bill, Bill and V.Stamp
<[Bill] W.WOOD17> Too bad, I enjoyed the chat.  Next time.  -o+o
<[Bill] B.MARCUM> has left.
<[gars] GARY-S> Bill Wood - I really would appreciate a chance to see some of 
your prototype stuff
<[gars] GARY-S> to leave type /exi
=== End of Steno notes. ===