Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 11/02/89   Time: 22:32EST
Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[W.BADEN1]
[[Dave] OLORIN]
[[Jim] JTITTSLER]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[JETHOMAS]
[[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS]
[[Kevin] APPERT]

  ** WARNING ** Much of this conference was devoted to attempts to express
                thoughts using syllabic and phonetic abbreviations. NO EDIT
                was performed to make these attempts more comprehensible.

The Question of the Night:
Welcome to another open FIGGY BAR. In Forth-79 AGAIN was in the Controlled Ref 
Set, in Forth-83 uncontrolled, in ANS X3/J14 it is once again controlled.
controlled. Do you (1) agree (2) disagree (3) care (4) I use only the Required
Word Set.

 Other items discussed: Dave Weinstein's Object Oriented Forth Extensions are
 now uploaded, Upcomming guest conferences, Phillips Telegraphic code as a
 terminal front-end processor,C and Pascal exercises in Forth.

Minutes:
<[Gary] GARY-S> Welcome Jim
<[Jim] JTITTSLER> Hello Gary.
<[Dave] OLORIN> And for good news....the much balleyhoed long awaited Object 
Oriented Forth version 2.0 is done and *working* and will be uploaded *to
night*.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did my notes to Allan actually flush you out for a FIGGY ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> That's great Dave !
<[Gary] GARY-S> Dave - I'm trying to get Jim and Allan Pratt to do a guest Conf
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jim - we don't follow protocol in these open FIGGY BARs - just 
jump in whenever
<W.BADEN1> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wha happen
<[Gary] GARY-S> Evening Wil
<[Dave] OLORIN> Trying to beat some sense into my term program.
<W.BADEN1> Hi, gary, dave.
<JETHOMAS> is here.
<[Dave] OLORIN> Hullo Wil
<[Dave] OLORIN> not Monitoring.
<[Gary] GARY-S> When will you post your OOF Dave ? Tonite ? and it runs on...
<[Dave] OLORIN> It will go up tonight. A big arc file.
<APPERT> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jet, Kev
<[Dave] OLORIN> (The object code is 3 parts, and it requires the record code 
and the module code)
<[Dave] OLORIN> All (I think) of the implementation dependent code has been 
abstracted into a single module, so porting shouldn't be that bad.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is this a whole new kernel or a 83 extension, Dave
<[Dave] OLORIN> It's an extension. It was developed for F-PC.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Since F-PC is PC specific that sorta limits porting
<[Dave] OLORIN> It should be fairly easy to port. It is not dependent on PC 
architecture.
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> jax
<FIGCHAPTERS> foof!
<W.BADEN1> Hi jax. Sorry I missed u last week.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did you talk to Wheels ?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi wil, got some info for ya.
<[Dave] OLORIN> All of the implementation dependent stuff (from CELL size to 
words like >body) and the structure of the dictionary are in one place. S
o changing that module should be all that is needed (although block people will 
need to run it through a stream->block converter)
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> It's Wheeler & Sarns, Gary, both are Stevens. There 
are four stevens at VESTA, we call em the Gang of Steves.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> just a sec, wil, I'll run up and get the info.
<[Gary] GARY-S> It was Wheeler who more-or-less volunteered, so that's why I 
used the (nam) he used on the Moore conf
<W.BADEN1> (Gary, once again I hav a bored meeting on 2nd thurs. Giv Charles my 
regrets.)
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> that's fine.
<[Gary] GARY-S> well - did you? - so I can remove the tentatuive
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Your man, Wil, was Wlater Polk Phillips, 6/14/1846 to 
1/31/1920
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> oops, Walter.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, that's fine Gary. Wheeler & Sarns.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil - we go back to third Thursdays AFTER E. Rather's January 
Conference
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ohhh - both of them ! gotcha
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Philips Telegraphic Code is 1897.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Right, Gary.
<W.BADEN1> Jax, whr dd u fd tt? and wt else?
<[Gary] GARY-S> How bout explaining to the rest of us
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Source: Dictionary of American Biography, Vol. 7, page 
545
<W.BADEN1> Is it still available.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Have a call in for any sources. Phillips prolific 
writer, but stuff like that not so common in libraries in Colorado. Have to
 search a bit.
<W.BADEN1> wt else dd he do?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Regular contributor to _Telegrapher_ and associate 
editor _ELectrician_.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Stories sketches and paragraphs written as "John 
Oakum" published 1876, _Oakum Pickings_
<[Kevin] APPERT> Phillips Telegraphic code, for those of you who were not here 
last time this was discussed, is a set of curtations of common words us
ing the telegraph character set.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Author, _My Debut In Journalism_ 1892
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Washington rep of New York Associated Press during 
Hayes admin.
<[Kevin] APPERT> D.C.Hayes?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Rutherford B.
<[Kevin] APPERT> And I thought the current administration was a little hazy!
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> 1892 - 1897 general manager United Press, 1893-1897 
"War of the Giants", ends in collaps of United Press.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Again - what does this have to do with Forth
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Large and rotund, yet avid bicyclst.
<W.BADEN1> an ipt fea ws tt abbreviations hv unique expansions.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> author of humorous _Song of the Wheel_.
<W.BADEN1> I want to wri a phillips front a back end to a terminal emulator.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> d. Vinyard Haven, Mass, post-deceasing son and wife.
<[Kevin] APPERT> how else would it be, Wil?  Ambiguous expansions would render 
the scheme useless
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> see also:
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Jas. D. Reid _The Telegraph In America_ (1897)
<W.BADEN1> exactly. tr r no ambiguous exansions.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> VItor Rosewater, _Hist. of Cooperative News-Gathering 
in US (1930)
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> N.Y. Times, Feb 1 1920.
<W.BADEN1> tr = there, thr = thr, etc.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Kevin] APPERT> Newsgathering? Cooperative? in this country? Cooperative with 
whom?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> UPI, AP
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> etc.
<W.BADEN1> tnx, jax. excellent.  Nw to get a copy f code.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> New "face" here (to me at least) ...participant #3, 
Jim Tittsler.
<W.BADEN1> f = of the, d = in the.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi Jim!
<[Jim] JTITTSLER> I only stop by occasionally.  Hello Jax.
<[Gary] GARY-S> re: Question of Nite- does it matter if AGAIN is/is not 
Controlled ?
<W.BADEN1> hi jim.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> ( Wil .. like I said, i have call in for material. 
lets see what pops up).
<W.BADEN1> Since I made the proposal, I'd like to see it controlled.
<[Kevin] APPERT> What is the big deeal about AGAIN?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Do you know Kevin, Jim,since you are in same burg?
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> I gues on some machines, AGAIN is the equiv of 0 UNTIL 
... but on some chips, AGAIN is nice machine instruction
<JETHOMAS> I don't care about AGAIN, so I say why not control it?
<[Kevin] APPERT> nope, I've heard the name
<[Kevin] APPERT> are you the Atari J.Tittsler?
<[Jim] JTITTSLER> Yes.
<[Gary] GARY-S> 0 UNTIL is the hi level def - it performs infinite loop
<[Kevin] APPERT> oh god, another living legend
<W.BADEN1> I missed last week becuz I was getting ANSI report from Jack Brown.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Hows the weather in Birmingham, JE?
<JETHOMAS> Turning coldeer, a little drizzle.
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Snow here.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> hiLen.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi all
<W.BADEN1> hi len.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> were youhere sunday nite?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I forgot to set my clock, came 1 hr. early &quit
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> when nobody came!
<JETHOMAS> Why a Phillips Code terminal?  Does it shorten the transfer?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <abject apologies>
<W.BADEN1> If u hv it on bh ends.
<W.BADEN1> also reduce typing.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I probably passed thru a few min. after the hour, and figered 
it for a daylight savings time problem, Len
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> so why should AGAIN get bounced around from wordset to 
wordset? It's a fairly intuitive construct, esp. in the birthplace of
Forth, to wit, control programming.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> Useit almost EVERY PROGRAM!
<JETHOMAS> Why Phillips instead of some other archiving?
<W.BADEN1> it's fo direct communication.
<W.BADEN1> like nw.
<W.BADEN1> it cd reduce typing 25 %.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Not your typing Wil !
<JETHOMAS> OH!  It's so YOU can remember it!
<W.BADEN1> tni i am using wt I rmb ab it.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil, I find that I don't type letters but letter 
combinations
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> thus, tion is, in a sense 1 stroke.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To use Phillips, I would have to relearn my fingering.
<W.BADEN1> i picked up sm o it 40 years ago.
<W.BADEN1> quite true.  me too.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It would be easier if you learned it from the start
<JETHOMAS> If you had the eemulation incoming, you could see Wil's words 
expanded.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Reading it is (usually) no problem, it's writing it!
<W.BADEN1> it's n so hard.
<W.BADEN1> u dt hv to abbreviate.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I guess it might be like learning a new musical instrument
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You learn to translate the notes to different fingers, etc.
<W.BADEN1> sm f wds i hv spelled out may hv an abbreviation.
<JETHOMAS> If we're going to do new spellings, what about Shaw's syllabary?
<JETHOMAS> 56 symbols and you save a third on spellings.
<W.BADEN1> it mb (= may be) no more difficult thn cngg keyboards.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> cngg??
<W.BADEN1> tn = then, thn = than.
<JETHOMAS> A real phonetic alphabet.
<W.BADEN1> cng = change, chg = chg.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No not phonetic! syllabic!
<W.BADEN1> chj = challenge.
<W.BADEN1> mg = manage, hence mgr, mgt.
<JETHOMAS> Great for voice synthesizers.
<JETHOMAS> Onlly problem is learning new codes....
<W.BADEN1> no, ideographic.
<JETHOMAS> I didn't mean Phillips, I meant Shaw.
<W.BADEN1> u wd b abl to add to ur vocabulary.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not completely, Wil. The symbols represent sounds but not
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> phoneme by phoneme
<W.BADEN1> no, not sounds. tt wd b ambiguous. their is not there.  thr <> tr.
<JETHOMAS> I just realized, you (len) mean the professional shorthand.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Chinese is ideographic, Babylonian was syllabic, Spanish 
is phonetic
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Phillips is half way between syllabic and ideographic.
<JETHOMAS> I meant George Bernard Shaw's revised spelling
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The problem with Shaw's system is that there is no
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> standard English pronunciation!
<JETHOMAS> That is only a problem if it's a problem for you.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How do you mean?
<JETHOMAS> I listen to Southern accents every day.  It all comes out.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Granted that nobody says the gh in night, except maybe in 
Scotland
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but there is a lot of variation otherwise. In Boston they 
say sawr
<W.BADEN1> n rly, len.  ix (= it is) strictly based on spelling.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Phillips is, but Shaw's system wasn't
<JETHOMAS> Both are for human-to-human transmission.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Shaw wanted to use a pure phonetic system. Phonetic means
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> based on the sounds of the langugage as spoken,
<W.BADEN1> as u js sed, spoken whr?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Precisely the problem!
<JETHOMAS> I say, if you spell it the way you speak it, the only real problem 
is that people will know your social status....
<W.BADEN1> t pronunciation o American English h cngd in my lifetime.
<[Jim] JTITTSLER> But then you don't see as many Guttenburg presses either Wil.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> So have words. Few has changed from a noun to an adjective 
in 30 years
<[Gary] GARY-S> Folks - just so you know , there is NO WAY I am going to edit 
this conference. It goes up 'AS IS' !!!!
<W.BADEN1> any one for Forth?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Please !
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am giving a talk Saturday for "Forth Day"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A tutorial on translating Pascal to Forth
<W.BADEN1> whr?
<[Kevin] APPERT> an advantage of a totalitarian goverment: they could mandate a 
uniform grapheme/phoneme correspondence
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Foster City (Near SF)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Where Ting works
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> back
<W.BADEN1> i guess i wi hv to miss it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Len, how about posting the transcript to the library
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Actually, I am giving a more detailed version at Asilomar 
at the
<[Kevin] APPERT> SF, as we all know, stands for science fiction, indeed near 
Applied Biosystems!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> end of the month & don't want to put up the whole thing
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but I will do a few parts of it.
<W.BADEN1> ok then, i'll catch it there.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If there are any beginners, I hope to catch their interest.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (recuruitment)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Late arrivals - Dave Weinstein is putting his OOF in the 
library tonite
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The theme of Asilomar is OOS (Object oriented stuff)
<W.BADEN1> Len, i'm doing "Seeing Forth", the examples in chapter 1 of K&R 
translated to
<W.BADEN1> forth.
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> thatoughtabe pretty funny
<[Kevin] APPERT> and you thought trans-substantiation was the province of the 
roman catholic chucrch
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Great!
<W.BADEN1> we'll probaby be in the same hour.
<[Gary] GARY-S> O-ooo That I would like to see Wil !
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not funny at all, could be very useful
<[Gary] GARY-S> I was serious
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> : Hello.f ( ---) ." Hello, world!" r ;
<[jax@well] FIGCHAPTERS> ooops, "cr" not r.
<W.BADEN1> I'll upload a text version after the conference.
<[Gary] GARY-S> thanks
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Actually, translating from P. to F. is not hard,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> although it can be tricky at times
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but it is MUCH more difficult to translate the other way
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> because Forth can do things easily that are very difficult 
in Pascal.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Reminder - This comming Thursday will be Charles Curley's guest 
conference
<W.BADEN1> Actually Gary, i'll upload just before leaving for FORML.
<[Gary] GARY-S> That'll work, too
<[Kevin] APPERT> I'm excited already!
<W.BADEN1> Notice I sed text version, I can't do the graphics.
<[Gary] GARY-S> last call folk
<W.BADEN1> Any one for Forth?
<[Kevin] APPERT> what about AGAIN?  what is the issue
<[Kevin] APPERT> I still don't understand
<[Gary] GARY-S> controlled/uncontrolled/don't care
<[Kevin] APPERT> pro? con?
<W.BADEN1> I wd prefer controlled, but will accept uncontrolled.
<[Gary] GARY-S> in Forth-79 it was part of the controlled word set
<JETHOMAS> What is the advantage of uncontrolled?
<[Gary] GARY-S> in 83 it was moved out, X3/J14 has it controlled again
<[Gary] GARY-S> If you use it like 0 UNTIL and in words like QUIT it is of 
little concern , but there have been creative adaptations
<[Kevin] APPERT> What are the arguments for and against ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil - i defer to you
<W.BADEN1> the system words <MARK, >MARK, <RESOLVE >RESOLVE do nothing that 
<W.BADEN1> can't be done with IF UNTIL HOWEVER and AGAIN.
<[Kevin] APPERT> "creatuve" adaptations should not be guaranteed portable!  
existing practice does not include two guys in L.A.!
<[Kevin] APPERT> oops, late for dinner.  Night all
<W.BADEN1> I wan't to get rid of Mark etc, but need AGAIN to take their place.
<[Kevin] APPERT> just as it was getting ineresting
<[Gary] GARY-S> Then AGAIN in contriolled is necessary for you
<W.BADEN1> yes.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Thanks - and let's wrap it folks
=== End of Steno notes. ===