Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference. Date: 11/01/90 Time: 22:30EST Items discussed include: Forth on SPARC, multitasking systems, RISC, problems with ANS proposal(s), FORML Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Robert] R.BERKEY] Minutes: <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> So I see. <[Gary] GARY-S> anything you'd like to get off your chest or start a discussion on - nows your chance <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I was disconnected a couple of weeks ago in the middle of answering a question. <[Gary] GARY-S> so - proceed with the remainder now <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Arguably the best article ever written on Forth is Peter Kogges's "An Architectural Trail"". I'll upload the intro later. <[Gary] GARY-S> You mentioned that , yes - I would appreciate more info on the article. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Kogge's article is IEEE Computer March 1982. <[Gary] GARY-S> I was not taking 'Computer' then <[Wil] W.BADEN1> "an architectural trail to threaded-code systems." <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The right names of the two books. Interpretation and Instruction Path Coprossing, Debaere & Campenhout. <[Gary] GARY-S> Isn't that what you said last week ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Good, then I wasnt cut off. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Do you use Unix for your work? <[Gary] GARY-S> no - proprietary multitaskers <[Wil] W.BADEN1> 68000 based, 80x86?? <[Gary] GARY-S> no - Intel all the way <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Which? <[Gary] GARY-S> depending on period of mfr, all the way from 8080 to 80486 <[Gary] GARY-S> intel and data general for mini's <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Whence is your unix connection? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> -- or is it just C? <[Gary] GARY-S> unix - personal interest, plus I wanted to be more in tune to a multitasking environment that I could play with <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do you run unix on? <[Gary] GARY-S> 3b1, and a AT clone <[Wil] W.BADEN1> How complete is the AT version? <[Gary] GARY-S> It's MicroPort before the chapter 11, uses at&t binaries - very complete <[Gary] GARY-S> SysV 3.2 <[Gary] GARY-S> The 3b1 is SysV 3.5 <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Bending but not completely changing the subject, the company I've worked with for 9 years has been acquired by Timeplex, a subsidiary of Unisys. <[Gary] GARY-S> I'm aware only in name <[Gary] GARY-S> Unisys is one of the Minneapolis companies that just dumped a lot of people on the street <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Yeah, we know all about it.) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> We have been using Sparc 1 workstations for 1 1/3 years. <[Gary] GARY-S> Have you looked at the internals - Mitch's Forth widgets <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Sometimes I feel like a jinx.) <[Gary] GARY-S> This isn't the Almond Joy commercial, is it ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I've brought it up, and decompiled a few things, but it <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is just to launch unix. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Almond Joy commercial?) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Is that TV related? I don't have a TV.) <[Gary] GARY-S> Sometimes you feel like a nut - sometimes you don't <[Gary] GARY-S> Radio and TV <[Gary] GARY-S> Mitch said you can access the kernel and use it though... <[Gary] GARY-S> they had a crash course on Forth for their field people <[Wil] W.BADEN1> If it weren't for movies and Twin Peaks I wouldnt have any popular culture. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's easy to get into. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> But Forth, or particularly a threaded Forth, doesnot fit well with RISC. <[Gary] GARY-S> Do you know Unix enough to compare SUN OS with other BSD derivitives ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No. <[Gary] GARY-S> The Forth - is it Inderect or Direct Threaded - <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Release 4.03 merges BSD and System V. <[Gary] GARY-S> sort of <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I believe it's ITC. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Something else to check on. is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> That would be easiest to install, but probably least compatible with RISC <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ah, thanks for triggering me. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It has to be ITC. <[Gary] GARY-S> what was the trigger ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Your comment about compatibility with RISC. <[Gary] GARY-S> ahhh <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Direct threaded would use the sliding register windows. <[Gary] GARY-S> Stack pointers and RISC - not your best plan <[Wil] W.BADEN1> A feature is the use of Forth using dedicated 8 registers to <[Wil] W.BADEN1> monitor and debug RISC. <[Gary] GARY-S> If you get a chance to tweak around I'd be interested in your findings <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Well Robert, are you going to drop in at least at FORML? <[Robert] R.BERKEY> hmmm, still have made no plans to be there. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Right now I'm thinking about Detroit. <[Gary] GARY-S> You are both reasonably close aren't you ? <[Robert] R.BERKEY> I'm about two hours away. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm 7 hours. <[Gary] GARY-S> Trust me - that's close <[Gary] GARY-S> I'm looking at 500-1000 mile weeks now <[Robert] R.BERKEY> I only have to commute 6 miles round trip to work, so 2 hours looks long. <[Gary] GARY-S> When is Detroit - I do not recall <[Gary] GARY-S> soon <[Wil] W.BADEN1> My wife & I get up 4 a.m. Friday to drive up. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Start's Tuesday through Saturday. <[Gary] GARY-S> yeah - soon <[Gary] GARY-S> This is about the last real chance to get proposals in the original draft <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Another question for you, Gary. What do you know about CHORUS? <[Gary] GARY-S> nada <[Robert] R.BERKEY> I've about given up on BASIS. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> How so, Robert? <[Robert] R.BERKEY> For example, they are still using 'w' in pointless and direct <[Robert] R.BERKEY> contradiction with Forth-83. <[Gary] GARY-S> after all the time you've invested it's foolish to back off now <[Robert] R.BERKEY> The proposal I submitted to clean that up disappeared from my viewpoint-- <[Robert] R.BERKEY> i.e., it's no longer in the proposal log, but I never heard what it's <[Robert] R.BERKEY> disposition was. <[Gary] GARY-S> Then you should file a complaint to ANSI <[Gary] GARY-S> not the TC, but ANSI <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Perhaps, I think it's the communities problem now. <[Gary] GARY-S> One letter to the oversight member will require a response and perhaps investigation <[Gary] GARY-S> It's called 'hardball' <[Robert] R.BERKEY> I'm a concensus person. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> and a technician, not a politician. <[Gary] GARY-S> Do you actually believe concensus washed your proposal under a table ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do mean? <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Sigh, hard to explain I suppose. <[Gary] GARY-S> I'll go along with the crowd, but I don't believe I should be treated in a cavalier manner either - if I have offered a serious point to consider. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> The committee has no policies that they really commit themselves to. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The root of consensus is "consent", not census. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> So they play their own semi-private games. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Concensus means the agreement of all. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> So I'm missing the point about "consent" and "census". <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, Robert, it doesn't. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> <--- looking up concensus in dictionary. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> You won't find it. <[Gary] GARY-S> Do you read data Communications ? <[Robert] R.BERKEY> sp consensus. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Sometimes, we get stacks of them at work. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> 2: A: general agreement: UNANIMITY <[Wil] W.BADEN1> You're getting warmer, Robert. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ok, I'll accept that. <[Gary] GARY-S> The article was a few months back in Data Communications on CHORUS, but it didn't exactly snap my head around. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> But in the sense that you vote for it, not believe it. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm not sanguine about it. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's written in C++ (95 percent). <[Gary] GARY-S> Novell (NetWare) will probably make a major impact now that they have included Unix in their mix <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Anyhow, ANS Forth will by definition be a consensus. <[Gary] GARY-S> That is a requirement <[Wil] W.BADEN1> You have always seemed to me to be an anti-consensus person. Like me. <[Gary] GARY-S> One that works better in pronciple than in practice <[Gary] GARY-S> ^^^^ to Robert ??? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yes. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> I want a community, not a brawling bunch of selfish hypocrites. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> To both of you: "One who agrees against his will is of the same opinion still." <[Robert] R.BERKEY> So I have spoken out against the hypocrisy of a vendors standard. <[Gary] GARY-S> and bitterly so <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Perhaps that's what you see as "anti-consensus". <[Wil] W.BADEN1> If it's my turn, No Comment. <[Gary] GARY-S> I make a motion this meeting of the Cal-Ark FIG chapter be called to a close <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Aye. <[Robert] R.BERKEY> hahaha, might as well, this isn't much fun right now! <[Gary] GARY-S> so carried - g'nite === End of Steno notes. ===