Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 10/26/89   Time: 22:34EDT
Entire contents Copyright (c) 1989 GEnie
Forth RoundTable. Any or all parts of this
file may be freely copied and distributed
provided source credit is given.

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Hadil] H.SABBAGH]
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[John] JDHALL]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS]

 Items discussed: Heart/blood modeling,Bradley cforth, FCode on Sun SPARC,
                  more on 'the' quake,guest conference schedule, Forth
                  Business Applications, Management in Forth,Abundance,
                  scroll on last character of a line,comm programs in Forth
Minutes:
<H.SABBAGH> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Gary.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Still snowing?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hi Hadil
<[Gary] GARY-S> No way !
<[Gary] GARY-S> 75 today
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I know. Its probably 95.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Oh.
<[Gary] GARY-S> How's the Zoo
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I haven't visited yet!!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Noo York
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah.  Im too nerdy to really enjoy the city :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> as in Bronx Zoo
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Or the mayor
<[Gary] GARY-S> How'd you do on your tests ?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I passed.  I am now ABD: All But Dissertation...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I.e, I haven't started yet :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Got a theme
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah.  Fluid flow through a collapsible tube.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Also known as blood flow through an artery.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Requires a stupendous amount of Cray time.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The dynamics ? turbulance ? ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Well, a complete simulation.
<[Gary] GARY-S> really ? a complete model ?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes!  I am adapting my advisor's method for 3d
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> heart simulation.  He has the only method I know of
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> where the heart wall motion and fluid flow are resolved
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> at the SAME TIME.
<[Gary] GARY-S> That's an ambitious project ! I'm suitably impressed.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Unfortunately, I can't use Forth.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I might use it for the graphics display tho'
<[Gary] GARY-S> why
<D.RUFFER> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Dennis.
<D.RUFFER> Hello Gary, Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I was boring Gary with my dissertation topic.
<[Gary] GARY-S> You might want to check with Sperl on ECFB and see what he's 
done with graphics for F-PC
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> boring Gary, is that possible?
<[Gary] GARY-S> only worms bore
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Anyway.  I will probably try to get Mitch Bradley's CFORTH
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> and adapt it to an IRIS workstation.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Good plan - It's no secret I'm a bradley fan
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Len.  Who isn't a Bradley fan?
<[Gary] GARY-S> BRB - Dennis/Len keep the flow while I make a short exit
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> those who don't want to hear about C aren't
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok gary
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Well, C is okay... for writing a Forth interpreter :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I may not be able to stay long
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have a virus (human type, not computer)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> One of the mysteries of Medicine: Why does an infectin 
make you fatigued?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh, sorry to hear you are not feeling well
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah me too.
<[Gary] GARY-S> back - miss me ? :v)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Nothing very bad, thanks for your concerns.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not sure I would even write an interpreter in C unless I 
had to
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It's portable in UN*X land.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hadil - know how to reach Mitch ?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah. I have his address somewhere. Want it?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> unfortunately yes, it's about the only way to get into Unix
<JDHALL> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I'll have to look it up and send it to you.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hi again John
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi John
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well Hi John, how's the after shooks
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi John
<[Gary] GARY-S> No - I have it , and his phone #
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Did you read the description of FCode? Awesome!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Box 4444, Mt View 94040
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I don't know how he convinced the people at Sun to use 
Forth!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I mean Bill Joy is the *original* UNIX guru.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I'm seeing a lot about FCode on the Net- Mitch blew some folks 
away with that !!!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he didn't, but just snuck it in when they were'nt looking
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> actually, he beat everyone else with a debugger :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> He has included several Forth hooks in the Sun os
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> John, did you suffer any damage in the big shake up?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is John there, or is this just his computer?
<[Gary] GARY-S> He shows in status
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have sent him a private message (3 lines) & he might 
have missed it!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Missed yours, that is.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[John] JDHALL> No significant damage at home, but our bouiding at work is 
being condemed.
<[Gary] GARY-S> John Hall has graciously accepted as our december conference 
guest
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does that mean you don't have to go to work?
<[John] JDHALL> I am home working today.  I had the ooption of working at home 
or in another office.  Are they kidding?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Where do you work John?
<APPERT> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (Or am I supposed to know this?)
<[John] JDHALL> Lockheed in Palo Alto
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi kevin
<[Gary] GARY-S> hey kev
<[John] JDHALL> Kevin's building was trashed also!
<[Kevin] APPERT> My office is in the front seat of my car at the moment
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So was my friend's at Apple.
<[John] JDHALL> I'm working at home today, Kevin.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Puts a whole new meaning on the term 'urban renewal'
<[Gary] GARY-S> Stuff Forth - anything anyone just HAS to talk about ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> two doors down from my work address, there was a building 
whose walls collapsed, (it was vacent for remodeling).  It's a vacant lot n
ow
<[John] JDHALL> Many tourists left the next day.  Not willing to see if this 
was the Big one.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah.  I would like to start a discussion about
<[Kevin] APPERT> was Liz Rather the guest last week?
<[Gary] GARY-S> January, Kevin
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> boy, would she love that name :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> the use of Forth in applications OTHER than machine 
control/interfacing.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what apps?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> e.g., database, text processing, telecommunications, user 
interface.
<[John] JDHALL> How about business applications.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The schedule as it now stands : November, Charles Curley  
December: John D Hall   January Elizabeth Rather
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for telecom, check out topic 17
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah. I've been following it.  Really good code.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I could actually understand it!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> thanks
<[Gary] GARY-S> Has anyone played with Abundance ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> amazing, could you explain it to me <grin>
<[Gary] GARY-S> We are talking FAST Forth and oodles of Business apps
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do they have an assembler in Abundance?
<[Gary] GARY-S> two
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 2??
<[Kevin] APPERT> I'm working for a defense manufacturer and would have to 
ignore the silly use restrictions on Abundance.   They have EVERYTHING in 
Abundance
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> And the kitchen sink :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> a primitive one and a more ambitious one
<[Gary] GARY-S> called SPASM and ORGASM
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am thinking of ordering it.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've got a question for all you Forthers...
<[Gary] GARY-S> It's so damn cheap for all you get and it is a FAST FAST FAST 
Forth
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do any of your Forths allow you to write a character
<[Kevin] APPERT> < Frother (mostly at the mouth)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in the last character on the screen...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> without scrolling?
<[Gary] GARY-S> no
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Haven't tried it.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> tis a real problem in a terminal emulator
<[John] JDHALL> I seem to remember form the IBM's that it is an IBM problem.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm having to fix PolyForth right now to handle it
<[Gary] GARY-S> My old FIG Forth did that, too
<[Kevin] APPERT> You can do a direct screen write on a PC with no difficulty.  
All you need is a LONG! and knowledge of the address
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Why Dennis?  You shouldn't be using line 25
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, the BIOS routines also have the problem
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> for emulation anyway.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Most systems want 24 line terminals.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you don't actually use line 25
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> however, the problem in when I use PolyForth windows
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the terminal emulator sets line 24 as the last line
<[Kevin] APPERT> BIOS routines much too slow for screen output on PCs
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Ah. I understand.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then the app goes and writes to the end of the line
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil Baden routinely re-writes his blocks to suit himself as 
does Lee Brotzman if your looking for expert advice Dennis
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Have you tried a direct BOIS call?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think I have it solved...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> by doing the cursor scroll check before...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> writting the character
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah. I was just going to suggest that that was the problem.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Lee talked about his fixes in a FIGGY
<[Gary] GARY-S> Same time Weinstein was discussing VSM in Forth
<[Gary] GARY-S> and silence is expensive
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I now need to do some thinking about characters outside the 
window border
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that creates an even harder problem to handle
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> at least if I don't want to totally re-write PolyForth's 
drivers
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> maybe if I ever get the display settled, I can get back to 
ZMODEM
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anyone need a 32-bit CRC routine?
<[Gary] GARY-S> got one ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, but don't know if it's right yet
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anyone got one I can compare against?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but I'll know as soon as I get further into ZMODEM
<[Gary] GARY-S> 'Technical Aspects of Data Communications' by McNamara is a 
good ref Dennis
<[Kevin] APPERT> have you looked at John James' one in Forth Dimensions?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> didn't know John did one...I'll have to look...do you 
remember which one?
<[Kevin] APPERT> nope.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> thanks for the ref gary...I'm using some Pascal routines as 
a reference
<[Kevin] APPERT> it's in high level and he uses masks instead of shifts. It's 
really rather clever.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I just looked and McNamara gives the general algorithm but only 
discusses CRC-12 and CRC-16 in detail
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for 32 bits or 16?
<[Kevin] APPERT> I can look it up and send mail, Dennis
<[Gary] GARY-S> You better understand XOR intimately
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great, I'll check the indeces I have also
<[Kevin] APPERT> oops, I think it may be just 16
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I will need your RLE stuff soon also gary
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi Jax
<FIGCHAPTERS> hello all
<[John] JDHALL> hi jax
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hijack??   call the cops <smile>
<FIGCHAPTERS> Hi JD, Kev, Gary
<FIGCHAPTERS> No Baden 2nite? I have info for him.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've got quite a few version of 16 bit CRC kev, but 32 it a 
little tougher
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm table driving both of them right now
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but the table are expensive
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> on a 64K PolyForth
<FIGCHAPTERS> topic 2nite?
<[Gary] GARY-S> RYO
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does anyone have some RLE compression code in Forth?
<[Kevin] APPERT> be creative, Jax
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did you ever get Forseburg out of your hair over that ?
<FIGCHAPTERS> I am trying to be creative. I am working on four new Forths!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, he is willing to let me use his for public domain
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but I don't like his restrictions
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I think it can be done without knowing his code
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm certainly going to try
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gonna have to put g'night on a function key soon
<[Gary] GARY-S> anything Forthish to discuss - if not....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anyone hear anything out of ansi yet?
<[Kevin] APPERT> baa! humshit!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I gave Bess the 2 transcripts from the division bars
<[Gary] GARY-S> The time to get serious about ansi is E. Rather's Jan 
confernece
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> both Bob's rtc and the one before it will be handed out to 
all
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> The problem with ANSI is that they have SO MUCH TO 
DO.
<[Kevin] APPERT> " We must hurry, we must hurry, we have so much time and so 
little to do ..." (Willy Wonka and the Choclate Factory)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gary, your note to GEnie central said something about the 
jan meeting being the last ans meeting.   What did you mean by that?
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> More like the Red Queen in _Thru the Looking Glass 
_ " You have to run MUCH FASTER to stay in one place.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Kev - you are getting miliantly anti-ansi ... care to expound ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> ones complement?
<[Gary] GARY-S> that's your reason
<[Kevin] APPERT> no basis document on-line?
<[Gary] GARY-S> What Jax - no amen
<[Kevin] APPERT> Chuck Moore dropping out?
<[Gary] GARY-S> He never dropped in !
<[Kevin] APPERT> and so on ad dreadful nausium!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, he attended the first meetings
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Well, it's easy to snipe from the sidelines, but 
the ANSI effort is having problems.
<[Kevin] APPERT> no, my understanding was that he was a member at one point.
<[Gary] GARY-S> He attended, but did not approve
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> He is present even when absent, in effect.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he tried to argue, but that's not his forte
<[Gary] GARY-S> His views are in our library
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> The problem is that a Standard is about 50 man 
years of effort, and it's hard to see that much getting done by Forth prog
rammers on their own time before the turn of the century!
<[Gary] GARY-S> I still vividly recall his remark on his FIRST ever conference 
on CIS  - Standards are a red flag. If I accepted standards there would
 be NO Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> yes, it's easy to snipe from the sidelines.  I havn't got the 
time, the money, or the constituancy to participate on a meaningfull le
vel.  This does not prevent me from disagreeing with those who do.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I agree with you mostly, Kevin. I just would like 
to find some sort of problem-solving mode to shift into.
<[Gary] GARY-S> We had him in his second ever conference and his prelude very 
clearly repeats that view
<[Gary] GARY-S> But - does the standard committee not serve the Forth 
Community ? valid question
<[Kevin] APPERT> most of my sour stomach from the standard is frustration at 
being unable to spot any likely such mode, Jax
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> The goals of Ansi X3j14 TC are very idealistic, 
and it would be nice to see them be able to reach a meaningful comporomis
e that would enrich the Forth environment.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> And enrich Forth programmers.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> know any?
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS>  ;_)
<[Gary] GARY-S> rich or programmers :-)
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> programmers who would like more respectability for 
Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> any standard will help.  We can point to it and say there is 
one.  and then dierge from it
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> we discussed this at last Denver FIG.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> A standard might serve Forth, but Forth will NEVER serve a 
standard
<[Gary] GARY-S> Well put !
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> We of the Forth community are largely no longer 
young hackers, but project managers and higher.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> We DO know how to manage Forth projects. The old 
saws about no team work in Forth no longer hold.
<[Kevin] APPERT> tell that to Charles Curley next time you see him
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ther lies a serious problem - lack of new blood
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> THAT"S WHO I WAS DISCUSSING IT WITH! :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> how do you manage Forth projects?
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Of course, Curley is an iconoclast and a cynic, 
but he agreed.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ask Shifrin or Rather
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> You manage them with the skills placed at your 
disposal by years of working
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> in Forth ....
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> with other programmers on team projects.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> That's how.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to manage Forth project is NOT the problem, any more than 
it is with any other language, the problem is to manage Forth programers
<[Kevin] APPERT> I've heard Rather speak on the topic, and didn't derive 
anything usefull from it (for whatever reason)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> she doesn't know how to do it anybetter than any of us do
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Maybe you are not management oriented, Kevin ... 
besides, she is talkinga at a corporate level, not a team level.
<[Kevin] APPERT> she was talking about team level at the time
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Bess is a CEO, NOT a manager
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Well, the main thing is that you have to agree to 
work together.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I bet there's some management going on at Ames NASA
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> CURLEY's theory is:
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the manager we have now, knows little about Forth, but a 
lot about management and software engineering
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> that each Forth word in the program has an "owner" 
and that is the person you go to when you want that word to change.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> He also believes in source code management systems,
 provided they are coded in Forth.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is true of any software algorithm
<[Kevin] APPERT> does he have a source code management system, Jax?
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Dennis ... is FINC well run?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ron Brathwaite can talk at length about the effects of a 
mismanaged Forth project
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> ( yes kev, a few screens of Forth).
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good question...I'm not sure I'll answer in public <grin>
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Well, you can be general. I think it is an 
interesting question. Is Forth's most hoary corporate entity showing its age,
or is it still vital?
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Kevin] APPERT> would you talk him into posting it?  sounds like a topic on 
the BB. " Managing Forth" (unless there is one )
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> He'll be speaking here in a month or two, right GS?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Who he ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Curley ? - yes
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is one kev...Forth, Inc. is still vital, but 
suffering many of the normal pains of becoming a real company
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> "becoming" ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, they hare making profits and now they need to learn 
what to do with them
<[Kevin] APPERT> spend it fast
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Learn to write Forths that aren't indirect 
threaded.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they've done that, but to get bigger, they must spend the 
profits on the right things
<[Kevin] APPERT> real estate
<[Gary] GARY-S> I would have thought Forth Inc and entrepreneural quit being 
synonymous some time ago
<[Gary] GARY-S> Last shots ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no, the entrepreneural spirit just need to be harnessed 
onto some common goals.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is lacking right now
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Republicans stink!
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> How's that, Gary?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Forth last shots
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS>  :-)
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Oh, FORTH ... :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> next thing you know they'll hire a bunch of lawyers and MBAs 
and start sueing everybody.  Just like apple
<[Kevin] APPERT> (Forth INC. that is)
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I would like to see FINC move to Colorado
<[Kevin] APPERT> why,  Jax?
<[Gary] GARY-S> I wonder how well Sculley likes 'HIS' company now
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if that happens, then we can really say it's gone, and so 
will I be
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Because then I could possibly work for them.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I would like to see Forth Inc thrive and prosper 
and keep having new ideas.
<[Kevin] APPERT> amen, Jax.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> They are doing very nice things in Control 
programming.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so would I, and everyone else who works there, the problem 
again is focus
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> Focus on the new chips, big boy. And keep that 
emphasis on multiprogramming.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Forth on SPARC and 486 and 88000
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> engineering project and custom work can only do so much
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> or AMD29000 or RTX 4000 or  ...
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> right. You have to have PRODUCTS>
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I can see FINC is fishing around for 
off-the-shelf products.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> right, and there is the problem with focus
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I know the feeling, believe me.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Project Engineering IS FINC's core ! Never ignore who brung you 
to the dance !
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> I don't think that $3750 8051 systems are entirely 
the answer ... but i suppose you sell a few.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it's awfully hard to do product while servicing the 
bread and butter
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> our problem exactly.
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> we have backlog of  new prodcut releases.
<[Gary] GARY-S> let's go home. ladies
<[Jax Of Cours] FIGCHAPTERS> no time to write manuals! no time to polish.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good night ladies
=== End of Steno notes. ===