Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 10/11/90   Time: 22:32EDT

Attendees:
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Bill] B.CLARK10]
[[Robert] R.BERKEY]

  Items discussed include Jef Raskin, ECFB shutdown, Forth embedded in 
  appliances, autos, tape controllers, SPARC, Forth jobs in England,
  FORML/EuroFORML,Standardizing Forth(??).

Minutes:
<GARY-S> BUSY !!!!!!
<NMORGENSTERN> That's good if you are making money, otherwise, not
<GARY-S> Then it ain't worth squat
<GARY-S> I really regret you will miss Raskin's conference next Wednesday
<GARY-S> He's a very interesting man
<NMORGENSTERN> Yes. I have heard him speak, and he is fascinating.
<NMORGENSTERN> A real idea man!
<GARY-S> good sense of humor, too
<NMORGENSTERN> When I heard him in Anaheim at the last Forth National
<NMORGENSTERN> a couple of years ago, it was earth-shaking!
<NMORGENSTERN> (there was an earthquake while he was speaking)
<B.CLARK10> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> A very mild one, fortunately.
<GARY-S> He uses a comm program he wrote in Forth that has a reply window and 
recieve window, so he can compose while logging, nice
<B.CLARK10> hello Im new to this dso i'll just listen for now..
<NMORGENSTERN> We like to be informal. Can you set your first name?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Mine is so redundant I seldom bother
<NMORGENSTERN> Type /nam Bill at the start of a line.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Bill use a slash command to - you got it
<R.BERKEY> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> Great! How much Forth experience have you had, Bill?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> what does the N in Nmorgenstern stand for ???
<[Gary] GARY-S> nee-bob
<NMORGENSTERN> Nathan Leonard. I have used my middle name
<NMORGENSTERN> since the age of 2
<NMORGENSTERN> (I had 2 cousins named Nathan)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Robert, you have been unusually quiet in the Bulletin Board of 
late. Give up ? Busy ? Regrouping ?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Partly waiting for the next ANS mailing.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Haven't even gotten the passed proposals from the last 
meeting, yet.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Should be a short wait
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I first heard of FORTH back in 1980 or there abouts and have 
written a 68000 version/rewrite of fig-forth to run on a home brew vme
 computer but haven't managed to convince my boss to use forth at work!!!
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> I don't know what happens next with ANS.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The story of Forth!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Where do you work?
<[Gary] GARY-S> In case anyone has noticed the xCFB messages have stopped, 
Jerry shut ECFB down, and the new central hub goes into operation next week
<[bill] B.CLARK10> MegaTape Corp, Duarte, CA   we make tape drives for backup
<[Gary] GARY-S> Does your boss know Maxtor likes Forth ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Maxtor uses Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Where did Ting work? They make drives, too.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Maxtor
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sun uses Forth a lot!
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I know   but the problem is no-one else here understands 
FORTH so I have to bow to popular opinion and use asm/c
<[Gary] GARY-S> When Ting had his conference here that's where I called him
<[Gary] GARY-S> All the widgets in SPARC stations are Forth
<[bill] B.CLARK10> Does MAXTOR use FORTH in there drives ???
<[Gary] GARY-S> In the controller chips
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You should get in touch with the Orange County chapter
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Noshir Jessung 714 842 3032
<[Gary] GARY-S> But so does the brain under the hood of many (most) cars, and 
now refridgerators
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Or Los angeles, Phjil Wasson
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Forth in refrigerators?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 213 649-1428
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Phil, that is
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yep - for the frost free cycles, etc
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> huh.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Uses Super 8, just like Gary Feierbach does
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I been to the Mercury savings and loan in OC, interesting 
people but I havent had much time recently.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A high percentage of embedded controllers are written in 
Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Autos, refrigerators, sewing machines, etc.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> Auto's ???
<[Gary] GARY-S> In case you didn't know it, The zilog super 8 has a small Forth 
kernel in it
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes. Most modern autos have several controllers:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> automatic transmission, gas intake, brakes, etc.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not to speak of lights, windows, etc.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Spark advance timing is strictly micro controlled now
<[Gary] GARY-S> The emission check is too
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Microwave ovens!
<[Gary] GARY-S> you bet !
<[bill] B.CLARK10> perhaps I'm making something clear    the tape 
controllers/drive I design/programme have to have sub millisecond response time
AND keep a running total of bytes going by AND keep a cmd trace AND...
<[bill] B.CLARK10> or not..
<[Gary] GARY-S> Robert - Very interesting guest this Wednesday ( NOT Thursday) 
in Jef Raskin
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sounds like a job for Forth!
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> they can do this with C, Bill?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> no
<[Gary] GARY-S> I would think C would be too slow, asm maybe
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> so that leaves multitasking asm?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> yes, my prototypes have a multitasking asm kernel written 
8088 code !!!
<[Gary] GARY-S> That makes more sense
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> prototypes in asm, sigh (!)
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> would you consider leaving to take a similar job using 
Forth?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> (not that I know of any)
<[Gary] GARY-S> You might also tell your boss that smart shops like Atari 
prototype hardware and softyware in Forth
<[bill] B.CLARK10> but I chickened out in the production version and went 
non-multitasking since the task became simpler after ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wish Jax were here. custom-made embedded controllers
<[Gary] GARY-S> I sure don't envy you, microcoding in asm
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> is just about all he does.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> seeing i didn't need so many jobs running..... yes I would 
consider a FORTH job but where??? and are there any in England??? I'm mo
ving soon
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes there is a Forth Interest Group in London
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> oh, sure, England had Forth early on.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> D. J. Neale.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 58 Woodland Way
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> get MPE's catalogue, they are in Southampton.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Morden, Surry SM4 4DS
<[Gary] GARY-S> As soon as you get to England call the folks up at MPE 
( MicroProcessor Engineering, LTD )
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> It's only a dollar or two to call from the West coast.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Telephone + 44 703 631441
<[bill] B.CLARK10> ASM aint so bad but I must admit I wish I could have done 
some of it .. the top layer in forth ....... mmmm ! lots of good info tha
nks.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> I recommend their catalogue, interesting things they have 
done.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did you get that phone number Bill
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Quite advanced Forth.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I took a snapshot with procomm
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> at MPE.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> they also have a contact in Rochester, Boris Naschanchik 
(sp?).
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Rochester N. Y. that is
<[bill] B.CLARK10> do you have an address book in your head  or  are you 
looking this up?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have a listing of all active Forth Interest groups here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> You're on the west coast - call after midnight some night
<[Gary] GARY-S> You'll reach London (Southampton) at tea time
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I'll do that
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> why England?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> What controller do Maxtor use?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> to bad GEnie isn't in there, yet.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> at least Germany is now connected.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> I'm English born and bred and I miss the wet and wind...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Give me sunny California, but I admit L. A. county
<[bill] B.CLARK10> could be expensive, oh well maybe there an equivelent 
service in UK
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> can be pretty extreme!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Have you thought of Vancouver, BC. Lots of Forth there.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> I don't recall having seen much on GEnie from folks in 
England.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> interesting
<[Gary] GARY-S> They don't even get on Usenet very often
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jack Brown JBROWN12 on GEnie is a professor of Math
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> very active in Forth circles.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> no, even with Tommy Rolf's connection.
<[Gary] GARY-S> May be going on sabatical (sic) though
<[bill] B.CLARK10> when I left England 9 years ago they didn't even have hayes 
modems or anything similar but now?????
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> oh, well, MPE has some kind of online connection.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> What does MPE do ???
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Nothing like being a little behind to make you run very 
hard
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> our company is expanding in Europe and mentioned that 
England hosted
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> many of the international standards meetings.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to catch up. British and French computer science is 
advancing
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> by leaps and bounds, I hear.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I wish we had France's minitel
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> MPE has a modular Forth for the PC, and they also sell 
books, processor
<[bill] B.CLARK10> or even england's prestel !!
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> boards, consulting, training, the list seems to go on and 
on.
<[Gary] GARY-S> MPE is also very involved in Forth education
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> I haven't seen their software in action, but I was sure 
impressed by
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> their catalogue.
<[Gary] GARY-S> MPE does board development, right up your alley, Bill
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Now, what's "prestel", Bill?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> my brother in UK tells me very little hardware is designed  
in the UK, mostly software and support for US stuff.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> what does that mean for your career?
<[bill] B.CLARK10> Oh prestel is/was a GENIE like service that used a special 
dumb terminal of 24x40 chars that  you could any kind of info on except
that it used an FSK modem with 1200 baud from host to user and 75 baud from 
user>host ,  no PC software to down load...
<[bill] B.CLARK10> eiter
<[bill] B.CLARK10> either
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> ah, thanks.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sounds like PRODIGY !
<[bill] B.CLARK10> TV guide ... weather...   yes prodigy is a close relative..
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No serious user will ever be happy unless
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> he/she can record the messages as they come over the wire.
<[bill] B.CLARK10> since it uses a video text format except in UK it's text 
only , no fancy NAPLPS graphics
<[bill] B.CLARK10> mmm I don't think Procomm+ would work with Prestel
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Prodigy is based on the idea that there must be a
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> lot of people who like to stare at a screen & watch the
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> messages go by!
<[bill] B.CLARK10> v e r y    s l o w l y
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It gets tiresome real quick!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Prodigy is sure filling my mailbox with come on ads. Anyone 
else ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I got an almost free trial offer & tried it. Net cost $10
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> well, what's Jef Raskin up to, Gary?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm glad I did, because I can now tell friends to avoid it.
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> you had to pay??
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> hehe!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes. They sent me a package with disks & a manual, etc. so
<[Gary] GARY-S> He's gonna raise a little fun about market chutzpah (spell it 
correctly Leonard)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and I got a lot of free hours. They didn't make anything 
on it!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> spelling is correct.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The man is a delight to talk to, and types faster than I talk 
so it could be a VERY good conference. HE DOES KNOW FORTH
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sorry I have to miss it!
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> When does Jef come online???
<[Gary] GARY-S> You have to wonder how a musician becomes a computer wunderkind,
 maybe he'll tell us
<[Gary] GARY-S> next Wednesday
<[Gary] GARY-S> by the way, There will be no FIGGY next Thursday
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mathematical and musical ability are highly correlated!
<[Gary] GARY-S> He is also a gifted math whiz
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> When I was three years, I could already play on the 
linoleum.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But now I just fiddle with my whiskers.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> <chuckle!>
<[Gary] GARY-S> I don't know his iq, but I am pretty sure genius is not too 
strong a word
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> (just remembered something I was trying to think of, the 
first FORML
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> conference was in England)
<[Gary] GARY-S> It never ceases to amaze me, the bigger the mover and shaker of 
computerdom, the nicer the person seems to be to chat with
<[Gary] GARY-S> 1980 was at Asilomar, was there one (more) before that ?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> that would have been when it was.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There is a EUROFORML every year, isn't there?
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> As I recall, Kim Harris and Dave Boulton were there.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Usually in Germany.
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> I DO BELIEVE I MET THEM IN THE UK now that you mention it, 
at the time they were trying to give us copies of 6502 fig-forth for the
 apple][ in 2716 eproms except no-one could get any at the time.. 1980
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> no apples, or no eproms?
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> 2716's
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> new technology !!!!!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The cutting edge is where you bleed!
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> hmmm, small world time.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Will FORML rise from the ashes like the Phoenix ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> FORML isn't dead, so it doesn't have to be resurrected, 
Gary
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Its vigor might not be all that is desired, however.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The fastest programmer conference was a different ball of wax 
than previous FORML's, will it revert to ideas in Forth or has SigFORTH
stolen that thunder
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That wasn't FORML, that was FIG National Meeting!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> FORML is at Asilomar every November.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Thank you, you're right and I stand corrected
<[Bill] B.CLARK10> I got the impression from reading C.M. that FORTH was 
invented to allow the programmer some individuallity NOT to conform to some s
tandard???
<[Gary] GARY-S> CM still maintains that !
<[Gary] GARY-S> CM isn't trying to sell a 'standardized' system to the DoD
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It has been said that "Forth's power is so great
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that it doesn't impose a style, and that is Forth's
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> greatest problem"
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> I hadn't heard it described in those terms, more like he 
wanted
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> to write more than 40 programs in his life, and objected to
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I believe that, and that is why we NEEED a standard.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> 19 different languages, including editor's and operating 
systems, needed
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> to write programs.
=== End of Steno notes. ===