Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference. >From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe Date: 09/21/89 Time: 21:30EDT Attendees: [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[mike] M.MELLEN1] [I.MONTANEZ] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS] Minutes: hi <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how close are you to Hugo? He (it?) is going to miss us <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> glad to hear it <[mike] M.MELLEN1> South Carolina isn't <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yea, I'm listing to new right now and it looks like they will get a real big blow down ther <[mike] M.MELLEN1> We got David ten years ago. That was enough for this centy centy <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> Sorry, new keyboard. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well Good evening Wil <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi Dennis. How do you do, Mike. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> Just fine. How about yourself? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm trying new software. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> What software Wil? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What's the good words for tonite. Red Ryder 10.3 <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Good words? Donno...just sitting in for Gary Is that a new RR? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, it's 2 years old, but I just bought it. I had RR 9.4 since 1986. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Oh, thought they might have gotten a new version out <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have been using MicroPhone II, which is great. RR 11 is due imminently. RR has one feature that MicroPhone duzn't -- Keyboard buffer. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does that mean a conference window? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yes. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> indespensible in these RTCs <[Wil] W.BADEN1> MicroPhone III is due imminently also. So I've found. What iron are you using, Mike? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> of course...after you've bought something else <[mike] M.MELLEN1> Procomm, the old standby <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, it was a $20 upgrade for RR, and I'm told MicroPhone will be free. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then your not out too much Procomm doesn't have a conf windows does it Mike <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I bought MicroPhone for $225 at EggHead on May 22, and learned of the update ... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> 10 days later. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> They'd better give it to you free then Wil <[Wil] W.BADEN1> So they promised. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> PC has a "chat" mode, where you can see Remote and Local echos. Is that what you mean? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm not sure. What I have is a window where I enter text but it isn't sent ... until I hit return. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the conf window that I'm talking about is where you can type a line (or more) and not worry about what else is coming in <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Exactly. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> That's Procomm's Chat mode <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Can anyone tell me about ARIEL? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Hum, I didn't know they had one, but it makes sense since everyone else does ARIEL is a simple BB system written in Forth I haven't used it, but what you need to know? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Do they have CRC with XMODEM? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> They have XMODEM, but don't know if they have the CRC flavor <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The XMODEM CRC is not quite standard. They flip the 2 bytes of it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Bob Schemmel (R.SCHEMMEL1) is doing a lot of work on it right now. He might be able to answer your question <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I've been very well impressed with what I've seen of him here on GEnie. What Forth(s) are you running, Mike? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> He is very new to Forth, but he has more enthusiasm than I've seen in a long time <[mike] M.MELLEN1> PC/FORTH at work, FTZ at home <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do you thing of FTZ? <[mike] M.MELLEN1> I love it. It's the environment we were trying to develop at Harris <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Is FTZ Zimmer's latest update? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have not been able to run even F-PC on my Imitation Blue Machine. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> If there is such a thing as Zimmer's latest, yes, FTZ is it <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No hard disk -- just two floppies. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> What's it got new, over F-PC? <[mike] M.MELLEN1> Hypertext help screens, mouse support <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jack Brown has managed to get F-PC onto 2 floppies Wil <[Wil] W.BADEN1> That's the one I can't run. Jack sent me the disks directly. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Ah, it's got mice <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Actually I can run it, but when I say "DIR" it crashes. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Do "real" programmers use mice? :-) <[mike] M.MELLEN1> and color and text files and lots more <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It also crashes when I do a CR in the editor. <[mike] M.MELLEN1> my wife needs to use the phone, so I'll see you later <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> You might ask Jack to send you what he's got. He said that it works, but I think you need enough memory for a RAM disk <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I've spent a long time today trying to use "vi" on a Sun WorkStation. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bye Mike <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Bye, Mike) <[mike] M.MELLEN1> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> excuse my ignorance, but what is vi? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have what Jack did. It includes a RAM disk. THE unix editor. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh yes, I 've heard the name, but couldn't remember the function <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I really missed Mac editing. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is it that bad, or just no mouse <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Basically it's bad for 1980's. It was designed for 30 cpm tty. It duzn't refresh screen unless you tell it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh, ala TECO? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It doesn't word wrap. (Not that unfriendly.) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> screen or line oriented TECO is friendly? :-) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> You have a command mode and an insert mode, and no indication which you're in. Sure, TECO will any thing you want. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ug, I hate it already I had to use TECO back in college, and hated it then <[Wil] W.BADEN1> WHEN (note the emphasis) you get into Unix you WILL learn "vi". <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ME into UNIX...egads NO! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Wanna bet? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> NO :-( but I'm staying ignorant as long as possible <[Wil] W.BADEN1> SUN WS makes Macs look sick. Well, puny maybe. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> BTW When is the next OCFIG? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Wed, Oct 27. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> How do I get there? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Glen Fed S&L on Edinger. S. on 405, off at Golden West, about 2 miles to Edinger (toward ocean) L. on Edinger and turn in first driveway. Edinger is boundary of Golden West College. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great thanks. I'll try to make it what time? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Are at Forth,INc.? 7:30. Check with Steve Sjolander, who comes regularly. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yep, and having all sorts of fun documenting right now Steve is away right now (don't know exectly where) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Amplification -- GlenDALE Fed. S&L. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'll try to find it Maybe Horace is planning on going also is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Hello I.M <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Horace make the LA FIG but I havn't seen him at OC FIG. Hi I.M. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Yes, he said he didn't get down there much <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Where is Coram? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I.M type /name (your name) to let us know who you are Coram??? HEIRVING MONTANEZ FROM COTHAT IS ON LONG ISLAND IN NY <[Wil] W.BADEN1> (Not you, Dennis -- I.M.) Where on L.I.? I lived there 36 years. Malba, near Whitestone. ABOUT 7 MILE NORTH OF EXIT 64 ON LIE is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, did a /sta and found out about coram <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi jax. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi wil <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Hi jack....look out now <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Wher'v u bin? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> interesting ... as I logged on ... intro screen said ... "No members in Conference" . <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Likewise. (There were two.) <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> GEnie bwoke again, mommy! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hum...can't check it, but I'll report as soon as we are done seems to be getting bwoke a lot recently maybe it is not all back since the last one <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Watt's Gnu? You can't be once again what you never was! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Have any of you checked out IMAGINE*NATION yet? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> no <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it's a neat interface system they just added to GEnie <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Called 4thinc the the other day and dropped yer name. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Dropped it on what Jack? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> On a sales hack. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh them <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I wanted that game poster! They offered free copy. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are they sending you one? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> They wanted info about me, my company, told them I was "4th Inc-Aware" yes, sending one. Told 'em that you told me how easy it is to pinch E. Rather on tush ... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Irv, what's the nearest well know town to Coram? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yep, do it all the time :-) NEW YORK CITY 40 MILES WEST... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ouch. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that close huh? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> How far from Garden City or Manhasset? YOU GOT IT ... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Wil, I don't read BBS too much any more, just "hit and run" as it were ... did you answer my last few postings on "BASIS on-line"? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, Jax. I'm suffering from Ted Dickens' disappearance, too. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> ...??? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> When I spoke to some one at Forth,Inc, they sed he dropt off the face of the earth. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Was Ted a TC member? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> What's happnin in Forth out on LI I.M? NOT MUCH AT THE PRESENT TIME... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> brb has left. JIM BASILI AND I ARE THINKING ABOUT RESTARTING EITHER A FIG GROUP... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I>M> ... di dyou local FIG fade? WE HAVE TRIED TO CONTACT THE NY FIG CHAPTER BUT NOONE ANSWERS THE PHONE. is here. APPARENTLY THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well...it sound like you have a calling then <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Well, I'm going to call around to the FIG Chapters and try to find out neat little things like that. You know, gang, for years they have been saying FOrth is dead ... Forth still lives and is getting better and better ... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, they havn't. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> but DOS is dead! Proof: the 4.0 debacle. ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> now Jack, can you prove it to my 4.77Mhz 8088? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> to my management-alert eye ... that event says ... that DOS has been handed off to the junior programmers to maintain ... while the BIG BOYS do Unix and OS/2. Kiss of Death. ( 8088? Run plyFOrth, silly!) . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm sure that is true Jack, but that doesn't mean it is dead... I've even heard that IBM is out of the 8088 market but how many of them were introduced this year DOS 3.2 is alive and well! <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> 3.3 you mean. 3.2 was buggish. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sorry, I only have 3.21 <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I run 3.1 when I *have* to. Wil has done some nice work under DOS ... what says Wil? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> actually, who even used DOS anymore <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The Balkanization of computers. I don't know what u are saying. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm running under Windows 386 all the time <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yes, but just in Forth. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> "Balkanization?" interesting metaphor <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The only DOS I use is FORMAT and COPY. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> incidentally, looks like the Balkanization of the Balkans now underway! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What's goes 'round... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> T.M. ... good luck starting FIG chapter, helps to have a BBS as touch-point. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Irv, do you know Malba? NO.. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> So we're even. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> ( oops, going computer blind ... that remark was for I.M., ( not T.M.) How's your editor coming, Wil? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I hav screen proto-type but other things are delaying. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Martin should be ready for it soon! :-) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I want to try to use Martin's latest. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> It looked interesting when I was over there last week <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> WHere is GaRY THis week? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Off on vacation, ug! Does anyone know where I can get terminal specs? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm going to visit Jerry SHifrin in VA next week (while on unrelated business trip) There is nice book on that Dennis. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> YES? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Guy wrote it when he found there was no such thing, tried to compile as much info as possible, said even the manufactureres usually can't answer questions ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you know the name? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Forget name of it, but it is everywhere, will email name. ( everywhere there is good compute book selection) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great! I'm to the terminal emulator part of my modem program right now <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> what terminal? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've got ADM-3a (easest) done, and ANSI working but not done <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I have about six ADM-3's at work. (and one Hazeltine and two televideos! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> nothing to them, cept a handful of control codes only one escape sequence (to set cursor) <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> It's maddening, really, I have had to deal with VT220/240 etc. You can see how screwy it is ... when you deal with polished programs like ProComm .. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Now they are the ones I'm fighting with emulating now <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> and see how even ProComm didn't quite get it perfect. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm not worried about perfect, just functional <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> The ONLY people who understand VT *perfectly* work at DEC. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so I can add in what I want when I need it <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I have been studying ( ready for this ) VAX C lately. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh no...not the big C <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> You saw my upload! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> haven't looked at it yet <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> The point is ... ifyou want to program a UNIX supermini ... Frankly, you had better know C. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> If you want to program in any UNIX you'd better know C <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> But for programming Forth-based Workstations, Forth is best. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, have we wound down on that comeback? I AM GETTING A LITTLE CONFUSED MYSELF. I APOLOGIZE FOR M/rai <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> CONFUSED about what? interrupting but what workstations are forth basec.. ga <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> None, really. I'm just planning ahead! 0.k.. g good.. ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not yet that is (if jax can get one going :-) <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> You bet. Based on RTX4000! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> SUN work stations are Forth based. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Sort of. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in ROM that is <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> The boot ROM is Forth. But that loads in, then hands over control to, one of the most fully-featured UNIX systems on earth. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yup. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> It's time we had some Forth-based desktop parallel supercomputers! Anybody got $250,000? I'll start on one if you do! :_) <<< pet theme ... Forth parallel supers on desktop. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Forth may be the language for Massively Parallel Processor. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Does everyone know who is blond, has big breasts, and lives in Minnesota? Who?... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Salman Rushdie. Do you know what Salman Rushdie's latest book is called? no?... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> "Buddha, You Fat Fool" ..:-) Cute... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Well folks, it looks like we are disintegrating <[Wil] W.BADEN1> The Mac LapTop has a transistor for each display pixel -- 256,000 of them. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Zotz! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What if there were a Forth processor for each pixel? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> that's display technology, all right. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Heard it is just about to be released FINALLY <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Then you would have more display power then you could ever use! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do you mean, finally? For two monthw we knew it would be September 20. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the market wanted it a year ago <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> You know, it's really sad to think, Wil ... that in a decade or two ... Dennis and I will be standing in unemployment line ... saying, "wish we had seen those organic molecular computers coming in time" ...:-) Only ... we'll probably be saying it in Japanese. . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) I've been there! Just hope I can make a million and retire in time <[Wil] W.BADEN1> This is why I don't think Garbage Pail Forth has a future. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> How defining GBF? oops GPF? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Like Garbage Pail Pizza -- everything in it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> F-PC <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Works fine as long as it will target compile, Like JFORTH. 3-k objects produced by 165 k development system. Many many many many many loadable options. including full obj- oriented. . <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Bob Berkey called me last week and we talked for 3 hours. Quote: "I don't understand why people are so concerned with signed division ... it's rare, it's obscure, and it makes people unhappy." He's right. Real programmers don't divide by negative numbers. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> What's Bob up to these days Wil? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I wish it were true. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I was speaking to programmer on JPL Neptune gig. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Has anyone on the TC seen a "real" use for them yet? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> ( since neg division in my 68kDT forth is buggy right now) <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Everything in 8086 assembler and no need for signed division. Bob suggests "NO" as a synonym for "0=". I could live with it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> So could I <[Wil] W.BADEN1> He duzn't like "NON" becuz it's a prefix. (But so is "NOT".) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> NOT really does belong to the OR and AND bit operators <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> I wish Ray Duncan would come around here sometimes. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it sounds as if that is coming across in the TC also <[Wil] W.BADEN1> "< NO" for ">=" and "> NO" for "<=" is reasonable. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> As the honcho of the only Forth company listed in Programmers' Connection catalog! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I wish any of the vendors would stop by occationally <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Greg sed it well. FST was capricious to make their changes; ANS wud be ... capricious to undo them. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Amen, Wil. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I wish I knew the demographics of the entire Forth community. I think LMI has more systems than all other vendor combined, but ... Forth,Inc has the greatest dollar value. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Get on USENET and meet more of them! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> LMI probably has the most users, but Forth, Inc. has more applications LMI is product based, Forth, Inc is custom application based <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> HARRIS is going to be biggest dollar force in Forth for forseeable future. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What are they doing about division? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Harris? or 4TH Inc.? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Harris. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Supporting it. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What form? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Hardware, I believe. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Floored division? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 0 or negative infinity floored? <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> The products I have seen are 83- STANDARD. But I haven't see pF on it. . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> pF is on it and running well <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> floored? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> What do u know about Forth,inc division? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> obviously with 0 based division it is the same they have had for ever <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> Wil ... email R.VANNORMAN of Harris here on GEnie with your question. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's ironic that Forth,Inc proposed floored division to FST for Forth 83. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that IS interesting Has anyone invited Ray Duncan to particII have to leave goodnight all... <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> gnite I.M. good luck w. FIG chapter. has left. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> did u get email addr, wil? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have either of you noticed the "bug" in Julian dates <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yeh. Thanx. Huh? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> If they are based on 1900, they just became negative 16- bit numbers <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> REAL Julian dates? They go back to 63 BC or so. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the only ones I know is those found in PolyForth <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Jan 1, 4713 BC. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they are based on Jan 1 1900 <[Wil] W.BADEN1> DaR, look at them as unsigned values and all is well. <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> jaxgoez gnite all! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> We do, but there are a few cases where it is a problem good night jack <[Jaxgorithm] FIGCHAPTERS> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I ran into a problem on a 32 bit system that did a sign extend on them ended up with yesterdays date well hope to see you Wed Wil. time for me to go also <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Good. Likewize i'm shoor. G'nite. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good night === End of Steno notes. ===