Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference. >From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe Date: 09/20/90 Time: 22:40EDT Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Robert] R.BERKEY] [[ting] C.TING] [[john w] J.WAVRIK1] [[]DANMILLER] [[AmigaDOS!] JAX] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] Minutes: <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> is here.... Hi Gary... I made it!... I will be able to take the next 2 Thursday... conferences <[Gary] GARY-S> Thanks - I was on the phone with Dick - sorry <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No problem! <[Gary] GARY-S> How was your RH ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanks for your New Year's wishes. <[Gary] GARY-S> They were meant from the heart is here. is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> FYI, my Dad has begun hallucinating some <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Hello Gary, Len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dennis. I was telling Gary that I will... be able to take the next 2 Thur. confs.... Do they know the cause? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Thanks Len, sorry to hear about that about your dad Gary <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dick! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hello Dick, and WELCOME! <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick - /xec to kill echo /sta will show I am job 1, and /nam to hange your name <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here. Hi all. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi wil... <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi Gary, Len, Dennis. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> nope you had it right the first time Dick, type "/name Dick" <[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's nice to "meet" you, Dick. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there ya got it! <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Ha! Got it!... ga is here. <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Hi john! <[John W] J.WAVRIK1> Hi Dick <[Gary] GARY-S> One minute to showtime <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well hi john, glad you could join us for this is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi robert! <[Robert] R.BERKEY> hiya! <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi John, Robert. <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Yup!... ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hey Wil, was your Control Flow file supposed to have graphics in it?... oops later Wil <[Gary] GARY-S> PARTY TIME - Let's go formal... Before we begin tonight's conference I need to remind ...... everyone this is a formal conference. .. .. ..... That means NO interlacing. Request a turn to speak by typing ..... !! or /RAI . I will keep a list and call on whoever ...... is next. PLEASE follow these simple rules : ...... PLEASE make your first response ok (so we know YOU know). ... Then, keep your lines short, ending incomplete thoughts ...... with three dots (...) and ending your question/statement with ga .... thank you. <[Gary] GARY-S> The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome this ...... evening's special guest, Dick Miller who is a partner in Miller...... Microcomputer Services, a cottage industry whose work-at-home..... programmers develop state of the art microcomputer software ...... at all levels from operating system through language (MMSFORTH)..... to such varied application programs as word processors, data ...... base systems, and communications modules. ...... Before founding MMS in 1977, Dick worked as an electro-optical...... physicist for Polorad Electronics Corp., Block Engineering ...... and EG&G, Inc. He has also served as Executive Director of ...... Lake Cochituate Watershed Association, an environmental ...... group dedicated to the effective public involvement in lake ...... management issues including water quality and use. ...... Dick holds a BS in Physics from Queens College and has studied ...... at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Brooklyn Polytechnic ...... Institute and New York's Hayden Planetarium. ...... He and his programmer-wife (and MMS partner) Jill still enjoy...... sailing boats -- from Sunfish to a three-masted square-rigger...... most of all.Dick is here to discuss whether to run Forth on DOS...... ... or NOT. Please welcome tonight's guest, Dick Miller.... .. .. .. .. .. ga Dick is here. is here. <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Hi friends...... This is my first conference via keyboard...... so be kind and thanks for your r patience...... The topic for tonight's convefence, to DOS or not to DOS, echoes ...... some of the Forth philosophy we've been using at MMS since we released...... the first version of MMSFORTH way back in Sprinring 1979....... in parallel with the early FigForth efforts.... And, while we were waiting six months for an answer to our letter, ...... in the FIG mailbox, we rolled our own....... Then and since, some of the MMSFORTH programmers are: Tom Dowling, Jim ...... Gerow, Dave Lindbergh, John Rible, Bent Schmidt-nielsen, and of course myself ...... and Jill Miller. In addition to MMSFORTH, we offer FORTHWRITE, DATAHANDLER-..... PLUS, FORTHCOM, EXPERT-2, GENERAL LEDGER, 8087 and vector graphics support, ...... plus a wide variety of other utilities and games. Also custom Forth programming and..... standard and special hardware to users worldwide. Sorry for the commercial..... but I hope this wilill open up some interesting question areas.... I have listed some areas of interest, but since we still offer a nonDOS version..... I thought that might be a subject of some general interest. Am I right?... ga <[John W] J.WAVRIK1> disconnected. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dennis <[ting] C.TING> ! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... Dick, do you get many sales for your non-DOS systems? How much market demand is there? ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Dennis, we encourage the use of the nonDOS version first, even for DOS users. We ...... find about 50% do use the nonDOS version exclusively, and others are split ...... between DOS use and those who use both....... But they won't know the difference unless they try the nonDOS first.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga ting <[ting] C.TING> What is the busiest area of your products now?... ga Dick <[Gary] GARY-S> was that it ting ? <[ting] C.TING> Yes. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick is here. is here. <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Hi! Well, any users who are progogrammers do use the Forth itself, so that looks like the main item....... BBut we are busy with custom applications as well.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[AmigaDOS!] JAX> Hi Dick ...... Congratulations on a longevity ..... rare in commercial Forth! ...... You mentioned ...... EXPERT-2 .... (which I ported to MVP and which they never released) ...... ( for amiga) ...... Hows is EXPERT-2 doing these days? Interesting uses? Improvements?... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Re Expert-2...... We sell it, but I don't get a chance to use it myself. I wish I did. ...... I am now discussing an expert system from Russia, and hope to offer it by year's end.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> The floor is open - in the meantime Dick is truly international. We had hoped to have a special...... guest here from Russia tinight, but Igor missed the plane. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[AmigaDOS!] JAX> Expert system from russia? <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick care to mention the Russioan and British connections... ga Dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Sure. We are interested in doing business, but even more interested in helping...... others to do business in the U.S. market. With this in mind, we have become...... the distributor for some Forth products from England: the MACH1 In-PC Board...... (a Harris chip board for the PC) and FORTH++ to go with it, and we are now...... preparing to introduce several different programs from the USSR. I ...... am still working on shaping the Russian products for the U.S. market, but...... both sides seem optimistic and the only one ready to name is the Expert System...... project. I am planning to demonstrate the MACH1 board at the local FIG meeting...... in Eastern Massachusetts in October, if anyone's in the area.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... It sounds like you are doing well then....... are the Russians using MMS Forth or their own varieties...... as we've seen in AstroForth (available in our Library)... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> We're not hurting, but we don't think we're doing well at the moment....... All of New England seems to be in a minor slump, and we see it in slowed...... software investments from our clients and customers. I wish we could hire one..... of the new Russian immigrants, Alex Sakharov, for example, but we just don't...... have enough work load just now. As to the current Russian forth usage, ...... yes, AstroForth is common and MMSFORTH is not. BetaForth, a smaller version ...... which seems to be a subset of AstroForth, also is used well over there.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ok... How do your non-Dos programs handle DOS files?... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Well, most of the time they don't, and get many other advantages by that fact. ...... But to transfer files, or ranges of blocks, we offer two major methods. ...... XFER is our nonDOS file xfer utility, and FORTHCOM can do the same tricks....... over a RS-232 link.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga robert <[Robert] R.BERKEY> Where do you see Forth's strengths in the next 15 years? (worldwide too) ga. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Go... wait...... Caught in the cross- fire! Good question. ...... I personally like Forth's abilities for rather conventional programming. ....... It is small, quick, flexible, and we try to keep MMSFORTH easy to learn and ...... very consistent in usage. ....... So I hope the excitement about Forth chips and embedded systems ...... doesn't change Forth from those values which I see as beneficial to more ...... programmers. In Russia, we hear that the cost and non-availability of ...... hardware makes Forth the shoehorn that lets major programs fit on minor ...... computers. Like back in PDP-8 days, here. And that sounds good to me, too. ...... I see some Forth directions going towards what I think of as C directions, ...... and I personally hope that doesn't become too popular at the expense of ...... these directions I favor myself.... gaga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... well two questions cause I haven't found a good opening for the first...... 1) do you have problems with hard disks on you non-DOS version?...... 2) how do you see the ANS Forth efforts affecting the future?... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> 1) No, nonDOS MMSFORTH includes an optional hard disk driver, and instructions...... for repartitioning any range of cylinders for nonDOS use. That in turn can be...... addresses as up to 8 logical drives, which handle as Forth blocks in a trans...... parent manner. But in this mode, we don't boot MMSFORTH from the hard drive, just from Drive A. ...... 2) ANS FORTH efforts? I personally am very discouraged by the current direction. ...... All our Boston standards group have voiced the same concerns, and we don't ...... think we will be able to stop the momentum to change Forth significantly. ...... I think I speak for all of us, in saying we want a small standard subset. ...... We don't think general portability is a reasonable goal. ...... We think obsoleting the few good Forth textbooks is a major mistake. ...... We think a group which thinks like ANS won't think like us. ...... We think our points are those of many Forth programmers, but not reflected ...... by those in the standards effort. ...... Sorry to be so negative, but that's how it looks from Boston FIG.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ANS Tech Committee could learn from MMS regarding transportability - you enjoy a high degree of it within your dialect don't you ?... ga dick <[ting] C.TING> ! <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Yes, Gary. ...... Back when the TRS-80's were significant, we developed for them. ...... Later, on IBM PC, we introduced methods to share disks between both ...... -- and quite different -- systems. ...... For example, we introduced a disk format which ran on both, and offered ..... additional space for all. Our "360K" disks hold 395K of user blocks, ...... plus a boot track. Etc. And we have many tricks for maintaining Forth code ...... in both flavors, at once.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax <[Jack Woehr] JAX> I rise to challenge your assertion that ANS Forth will "obsolete" anything other than parochialism in the Forth community. Moore has indicated that "Forth is an approach, more than a specification for a programming language" ...... Particularly troubling is such negativism from a major vendor who declines to participate in X3J14.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> A fair counter view, but if you don't keep this new standard small, we will ...... be stuck with a big Forth, or a "nonstandard" one with limited marketing ...... appeal, and our users will be carried along on that tide. We believe in ...... what we're doing, not just in finding another flavor to market. ...... And I think many others agree. I know they do in Boston!... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... From what I've seen, the ANS TC is starting to listen...... I must commend the Boston Std's group for sticking in there..... and encourage them to stick it out...... there seems to be a groundswell of desire to trim back...... what many see as a bloated standard...... If they can do that to your satisfaction...... whould you implement it?...... and if you do...... do you see it as having an affect on your sales?... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> First, thanks for the encouraging words. I'll pass it on! ...... We would be pleased to support a new standard which we feel is worth that ...... support. In addition to being small, I would like it to be very consistent ...... -- that is, non-tricky for beginners et al -- and as much as possible, to ...... track the past wordname usages which are in general use and in those good ...... textbooks. I don't need improvements, but I do need smooth Forth for new ...... users and for old ones who are being asked to jump through new hoops every ...... few years. Does that answer your question adequately? We ARE interested, ...... and would look forward to a chance to be more positive about ANS FORTH.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga ting <[ting] C.TING> Dennis said it well...... Ans is becoming significant...... by the documentation itself. ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> BASIS is very impressive, but we also find it very oppressive in the amount ...... of new words, and in the changes which we feel will be a hassle to too many. ...... But I AM very impressed with the effort itself. Can such an effort be stopped? ...... Can it be sufficiently tempered, without angering its writers? ...... We can only hope for the latter.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga john <[john w] J.WAVRIK1> ok... Thanks for recognizing the importance of textbooks and having..... Forth taught ...... Back to original subject (DOS vs non DOS)...... I think an important contribution to the viability of the nonDOS..... environment is that MMS has Forthwrite, Datahandler, etc ...... i.e. tools that people use most often....... When in the MMS- DOS version, are the files produced by these...... products totally compatible with..... other DOS files?...... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Yes, keep up the good Forth coursework! That's most important! ...... MMS-DOS -- I like that Freudian slip, or whatever...... Our MMSFORTH/DOS files CAN be totally compatible with others, but in DH+ we ...... choose again to offer a different advantage. We use counted strings for all ...... fields, in a very fast and compact implementation.. ...... We do have several methods, again, of converting to standard (read bulkier) ...... file structures.... ga <[Jack Woehr] JAX> disconnected. <[]DANMILLER> is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dennis <[Kevin] APPERT> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... can you stay longer than an hour Dick?...... don't want to cramp your schedule too badly :-)... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick... ga dennis - we will extend a quarter hour... ga dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok... you answered my question about your support for ANS...... but my other question was if/how you think...... it might affect your future/sales?... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Thanks, I did drop that one! ...... I think a small, desirable, accepted standard is worth using, ...... and that such a move should improve sales here and elsewhere. Just keep ...... the size down, the changes down, the consistency and ease of use up. ..... I hope it happens.... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick, please give the folks your telephone number, hours, etc... ga dick <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has left. <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Sure. ...... I will welcome calls on Forth and related itemss such as environmental applications, foreign contacts, even bluebirds! ...... Call us 9am to 9pm eastern time, at 508/653-6136. ...... Or write to MMS, 61 Lake Shore Road, Natick, MA 01760-2099. I... 'll look forward to more conversation!... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga wil <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Dick, when did you go to Queens College? I met my wife-to-be there. She is B.S. in Math. ga <[Gary] GARY-S> ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> Wil, that's a good question and I'll have to think. It was a long time ago! ...... I must have graduated about 1959??... ga has left. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Even longer for her. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick - give closing comments please... ga dick <[Dick Miller] FIGGUEST> OK. ...... It's been fun, even if my keyboard got caught up with yours at times. ..... Hope some of you get to appreciate some of MMSFORTH's features, and I hope ...... we can keep some of those and still accommodate a new Forth standard. ...... Best wishes from Jill and me, and from our Boston Forth pals!... ga <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick, on behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable, ...... 'Thank you' for a stimulating discussion....... All may stay and chat, but this conference has officially ended. === End of Steno notes. ===