To readers: The first part of the steno notes were lost because of a
blip by GEnie. They have been reconstructed from my capture file.
Leonard Morgenstern
Room 3,the Guest Speaker room.
Type /EXIT to leave, or ? for HELP.
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
/nam Len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> was <NMORGENSTERN>.
Name is now [Len] NMORGENSTERN.
/bml
You are now Meeting Leader.
Notice on door: Sunday Night Figgy. Topic is Forth bit by
bit: bit arrays, or whatever your heart's desire!
/ste
<Jennifer Marlowe> The Stenographer is here.
Jennifer Marlowe has come from the steno pool.
<H.SABBAGH> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi
<H.SABBAGH> Hi Len.
How did the examps<H.SAB BAGH> Is there a Figgy tonite?s go?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How did the examps go?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> exams that is
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 
<H.SABBAGH> Not yet. They're on Thursday. 
<H.SABBhAGH> I'm taking a ostudy break.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Good luck, and hope you don't get ulcers!
<H.SABBAGH> Thanx.  How goes the  OOP project?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> brb. I have to fix something, Yes ther is a Fi
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ggy
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> %ok, back
<H.SABBAGH> 
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm not doing much with oop, just trying.
<H.SABBAGH> \nam Hadil
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> have you done much with it?
<H.SABBAGH> A little.  I have used Smalltalk/v.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> was <H.SABBAGH>.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It is way too slow on a PC (which I have).
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It has its own interesting features.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Good to have your comments. ga
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I would liek to see a real OOP extension to Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There are several. What do you mean by "real"?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I mean that you can write an entire program in it.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I heard a comment yesterday that some
        programmers think that
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I found Pountain's work to be more like Ada pkgs.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> ga
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> multiple code fields are the same as oop
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I agree completely.  Some syntax problems, though.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I don't know if the available schemes
        ;in Forht support inheritance, etc.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

Room 3, the Guest Speaker room.
Stenographer is Jennifer Marlowe
Job     City         Room Sta Mail-Address
  1 Moraga,CA           3   L [Len] NMORGENSTERN
  2 Bronx,NY            3   N [Hadil] H.SABBAGH
Today is Sunday September 10, 1989
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I like MCFs a lot.  Syntax problems
        with things like arrays.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Also fields in records.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> pmi (pardon my ignorance) what is MCF
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Multiple Code Field.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Multiple code fields are easy to implement.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanks
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Error. I meant fields in records are
        easy to implement. Multiple code
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Agreed.  HS/FORTH has them, but arrays look funny:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> fields are somewhat more difficult.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Really? I have a problem that requires multiple
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> definitions of the same word.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> For example I want to have an EMPLOYEE record with
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> a NAME field and a SALES record with a NAME field.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I.e., NAME means two different things.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Have any ideas?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If you use syntax like sales. name.
        and employee.name, and apply
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> oop so that sales. and name. act as
        selectors you can probably
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> get around it. Whether smoothly or not, I cannot say.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> This means I have to build an OOP system.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sorry, that should be employee. name (note space)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Oh well, CM would say I haven't factored
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> the problem well :-).
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You might be able to do it more simply
        by incorporating BL WORD in
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> sales. and employee. and pick up the
        following word, us xxxx
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> better idea
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> A good idea.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Have sales. and employee. either be
        or invoke a vocabulary
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> But it means that I xxxx
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Then us ' (tic) to pick up next word
        and compile or execute it.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> That's better.  That way they can
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> be used w/o a modifier like sales.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So tonite's topic is bit arrays?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. Vocabularies can substitute for oop if
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> your needs are not stringent.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Are you interested? The stuff is quite elementary.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I presented it yesterday at our local FIG chapter.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Sure. What do you have in mind?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> One thing is a tryout of a facility
        for uploading in conferences
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If you don't mind being a guinea pig,
        I can see how well it works.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> OK. Try me.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Here goes
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>      TRUE AND FALSE: It surprised me
        that the Forth words TRUE
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and FALSE are not standard. In many
        Forths, FALSE is a constant
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with the value 0, and TRUE is a constant
        with the value NOT TRUE.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Interrupt if you have any questions
        or if I am going too fast.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> No problem, except you mean NOT FALSE.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. apologize for the typo!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think of these as "canonical" values.
        In my opinion, any Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> word that returns a Boolean flag, for
        example comparisons, should
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> always return a canonical value, and they do in F83.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>      Branching words will accept non-canonical
        values. IF and
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> WHILE tolerate any non-zero value as
        "true," but require 0 as
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "false," Therefore, it is permissible
        to use the result of an
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> arithmetic operation to select an action.Be
        careful!  Remember
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that 3 4 AND yields 0; in other words,
        two "true" arithmetic
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> quantities can AND to "false."
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Wil.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Wil, I am uploading my yesterday's
        talk at North Bay Fig
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> as a tutorial here. It is rather elementary.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi Len, Assalaamu aleikum, ya Hadil.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>    :  ZX  ( n1  -- ) 3 -  NOT IF ." Equals 3" THEN ;
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>      :  ZY  ( n1  -- ) 3 <> NOT IF ." Equals 3" THEN ;
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Aleikum a saalam, ya Wil.  You have a good accent :-).
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ZX
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> incorrectly applies the Boolean operator
        NOT to the result of an
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> arithmetic operation, and will print
        "Equals 3" when the input is
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 4. The zero-comparison operators, especially
        0<>, will convert
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> arithmetic quantities to canonical Boolean flags.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> So, ZY is correct
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Now we go on to bit arrays
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A BIT ARRAY: In Forth, an array returns
        an address, given an
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> index. This is also true of bit arrays,
        but remember that (unless
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you are working with an unusual CPU)
        it takes two words to
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> pinpoint a bit: a mask and an address.
        As a result, a bit array
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has the stack diagram (i -- m a). 
        First, create a set of masks,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> then define arrays.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> CREATE MASKS  128 C, 64 C, 32 C, 16
        C, 8 C, 4 C, 2 C, 1 C, : BIT-
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ARRAY ( len -- ) ( i -- m a) CREATE  ALLOT
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> DOES>  SWAP 8 /MOD MASKS + C@ -ROT + ;
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> BIT-ARRAY ( len -- ) ( i -- m a) CREATE  ALLOT
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> DOES>  SWAP 8 /MOD MASKS + C@ -ROT + ;
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>      Once a mask and address are found,
        CSET CRESET and CTOGGLE
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> will perform the indicated action.
        We also need words that store
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a Boolean flag on the stack as an element
        of a bit array and the
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> reverse. (Do not confuse .! and CSET.)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> : .@ ( m a -- f )  C@ AND 0<> ;
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> : .! ( f m a -- ) ROT IF CSET ELSE CRESET THEN ;
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>  
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> END OF TUTORIAL.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Very nice.  I like this uploading.
Switching to Backup Processor..
(Here is where GENIE knocked us out!)
P 710?
GEnie                       Page 710;2
  FIG Software Real Time Conference   
            Version 2.01
Room   Users
   3        1
Address of <NMORGENSTERN> will be used.
What ROOM (1-3), or <Q>uit?
Room 3,the Guest Speaker room.
Type /EXIT to leave, or ? for HELP.
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> was <H.SABBAGH>.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> What happened?
Room 3, the Guest Speaker room.
Job     City         Room Sta Mail-Address
  1 Bronx,NY            3   N [Hadil] H.SABBAGH
  2 Moraga,CA           3   N NMORGENSTERN
<NMORGENSTERN> Genie is having trouble
<NMORGENSTERN> brb need to fix things
You are now Meeting Leader.
<Jennifer Marlowe> The Stenographer is here.
Jennifer Marlowe has come from the steno pool.

<NMORGENSTERN> I may have lost the transcript. We will see. Meanwhile I have
<NMORGENSTERN> my own copy.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I was saying that we should suggest
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> to guest speakers that they upload their
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> opening remarks.  Is it easy to do?
<NMORGENSTERN> Some do. It depends on your comm program
<NMORGENSTERN> Some of them upload so fast that it is unreadable.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Is it just ASCII upload?
<NMORGENSTERN> As a result, we have discouraged it. But my system here
<NMORGENSTERN> seems to be ok.  What I do is break the text into small pieces
<NMORGENSTERN> and then TYPE it, which displays it on the screen
<NMORGENSTERN> I can then point to the desired line, press cr
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I see. You are using a comm program in FORTH.
<NMORGENSTERN> and voila, it is transmitted.
<NMORGENSTERN> No it is not in Forth, it is MIRROR, a commercial program.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Ah.
<NMORGENSTERN> There may be  a Forth comm program that does
        the same, I don't know.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I use Procomm+ myself.  You could probably slow
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> output down by including a lot of NULL characters
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> at the end of a line.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> What I use is called "chat" mode. Half the screen is my typing
<NMORGENSTERN> and the other half is feedback from Genie
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Very clever. Like Unix "talk"?
<NMORGENSTERN> TYPE displays the stuff in my half, and I
        can transmit as I indicated
<NMORGENSTERN> Probably.
<NMORGENSTERN> By the way, the important thing in my tutorial is:
<NMORGENSTERN> You can use arithmetic quantities as input to
<NMORGENSTERN> branching operators, like IF and WHILE
<NMORGENSTERN> but be careful!!!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah. I learned that from C, but if they change
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> the standard, then you're in trouble! 
<NMORGENSTERN> Agree.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> They did that from FORTH-79 -> FORTH-83.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Yes, F79 and FigForth used 1 as true and 0 as false.
<NMORGENSTERN> It was very clumsy, and -1 is better but
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So, what do you use Forth for?
<NMORGENSTERN> it broke a lot of code, as they say.
<NMORGENSTERN> I am strictly a hobbyist. I am trying to write a serious
<NMORGENSTERN> application, a small specialized data base thing
<NMORGENSTERN> that may hve commercial possibilities, but it is very slow.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> What the development, or the code?
<NMORGENSTERN> I am a retired pathologist.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Really!
<NMORGENSTERN> I don't want to talk about it [my application]
        in detail. It will be <NMORGENSTERN> for personal use by anybody, and may possibly be
<NMORGENSTERN> useful to businesses.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<NMORGENSTERN> There are lots of specialized data base programs around,
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> genealogy, libraries, calendars, etc.
<NMORGENSTERN> Hi Jax
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> was <FIGCHAPTERS>.
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> hi
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Jax.
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> hi Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, I am working on a specialized database in FORTH...
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It is a system for managing patient's medical records.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> for a surgical practice.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Strictly part-time, and a LOT of work.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> ga
<NMORGENSTERN> David Trumpler of Trigon systems in Berkeley
        has a medical system
<NMORGENSTERN> for physicians
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> brb
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> has left.
<NMORGENSTERN> for physicians' offices that he sells commercially
<NMORGENSTERN> Multi user, etc.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, there are a lot of them.  
<NMORGENSTERN> He and his cousin wrote a new Forth (about 10 years ago) that
<NMORGENSTERN> they called Pyramid. It was never commercially offered. Then
<NMORGENSTERN> another cousin, a physician, needed help with his "state of
<NMORGENSTERN> the art" office accounting system that he
        had just bought & paid a lot of money for. David realized
	that he could rewrite it 
<NMORGENSTERN> with Pyramid more easily than he could fix the old one
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> That is how he got into the business.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> was <FIGCHAPTERS>.
<NMORGENSTERN> Pyramid has a lot of novel features.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> That's very interesting.  I too am aiming
        to make the thing commercial.
[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> For when I finish my degree.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am more interested in clinical data processing.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Although I will eventually add the accounting feature.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Trumpler's system is both accounting and clinical records, with
<NMORGENSTERN> emphasis on the former.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Did you hear about the guy who walks up to the pearly
gates and St. Peter comes out to meet him? The guy is astounded! "This is
heaven?" "Yes." Says st. Peter ... "That's absurb," says the man, "I'm a
lawyer ... lawyers don't go to heaven." "I wanted to see you says St. Pete ...
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> " Why?" "I wanted to meet a lawyer who is 147 years
old" ...
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> "I was only 42 when the truck ran me over!" ... " I
added up your billable hours".
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Funny.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Funny!
<NMORGENSTERN> Hadil, Have you used MUMPS?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I've read about it. I broke out in hives :-).
<NMORGENSTERN> (No comment, Jax)
<NMORGENSTERN> It was designed as Mass General as a data base for
<NMORGENSTERN> patient records. Very widely used, and has been
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Seriously, it seems to have the same
        features as Forth +
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> I've been VAX/VWSing lately.
<NMORGENSTERN> ported to many computers
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> persistent data managment.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> oops VMS.
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Jax
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> done
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I know.  Also COSTART is available in PD for about $200.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Sorry, COSTAR.
<NMORGENSTERN> What is COSTAR?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> However, needs $10,000+ for installation!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> COSTAR is a system developed in Mass also in MUMPS.
<NMORGENSTERN> Aah
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It is the canonical AAMRS
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (Automated Ambulatory Medical Record System).
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Looks like you have found a man
        after yer own heart, Len!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I think that, if you add the data base features
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> ( med records )
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> to Forth, you get a language equivalent to MUMPS.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (Perhaps better).
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> brb
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> It's been done ... 
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> back
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> what's the name of that McDonnell-Douglas
        med rec system based on Forth?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Runs on vaxen
<NMORGENSTERN> Jax, you like Quayle quotes. This is from
        Parade, which is the
<NMORGENSTERN> magazine section of many papers.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bush may have chosen Quayle because he believed
<NMORGENSTERN> that a man of Quayle's youth, experience,
<NMORGENSTERN> there was little likelihood
<NMORGENSTERN> that a man of Quayle's youth, experience,
<NMORGENSTERN> and intelligence woule upstage him.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> jeez, i know two guys who worked
        on it, now I forget the name ... CYBOS, that's it!
<NMORGENSTERN> . (apologize for duplicate line)
<NMORGENSTERN> ga
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Quayle is dumb, real dumb. He makes
        Agnew look like intellectual giant.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Why do the Republicans always give
        us criminals or morons for high elective office?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Why, Johnny?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Because ...
<NMORGENSTERN> Paul Simon's wife said that her husband had written 6 books,
<NMORGENSTERN> probably more than Ronald Reagan had ever read.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> The Repubs run things from the boardrooms
        and the Prexy (if Repub) is just a stooge for them.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> They WANT morons in the W.House.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Three worst presidents this century:
        Harding, Nixon, Reagan. Republicans.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Two worst from 1865-1900: Harrison,
        Grant. Republicans.
<NMORGENSTERN> Jax could you mention the name of that data base program
<NMORGENSTERN> Hadil wasn't here when you put it up.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, it was CYBOS, I believe.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> CYBOS ... medical record system (now owned by
McDonnell Douglas) in Forth for Vaxen
<NMORGENSTERN> Do you know it, Hadil,
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> No, no, I just read Jax's message. Where
        can I get info on it?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> ga
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> McDonnell Douglas, I guess.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> It is *old*.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> But still available.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> ( ca. 1975)
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<NMORGENSTERN> REAL old
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Now don't get funny, Len! :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Thanx.  I am also interested in that Berkeley system.
<NMORGENSTERN> MUMPS is that old, but has been through revisions
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Four years is old for software.
<NMORGENSTERN> and has active users groups and bulletin boards.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> MUMPS is here on GEnie.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am still going to write my own, though.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Maybe I can do things a little differently.
<NMORGENSTERN> Don't let us discourage you, Hadil. The value of
<NMORGENSTERN> a system lies less in the cleverness of its programming
<NMORGENSTERN> than on its suitablity to the needs of the users.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> MUMPS on GEnie? No wonder they have it quarantined :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Len: Au contraire.  Talking about this stuff here
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Type MUMPS from any main page prompt.
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> gives me renewed confidence to do this,
        espcially in a <[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> non-Forth world.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Forth permits multitasking, etc. which is very useful
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Dinner calleth, Gentlemens. Ich fohr.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> gnite
<NMORGENSTERN> in an office situation. Muliuser etc. not hard to implement.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> has left.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bye Jax.
<NMORGENSTERN> It also calleth me, Hadil. Why don't we sign off?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Ok. Talk to you later.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> 
<NMORGENSTERN> Good talking to you. Next Thur is Koopeman
Steno mailed and cleared.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I won't be able to make it, unfortunately.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bye now
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> bye
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> has left.
<NMORGENSTERN> has left.
Room now has no leader.
Steno notes automatically mailed.
Jennifer Marlowe is returned to the pool.

Item    6553408                 89/09/11        10:01
From:   STENO.POOL                      RTC Stenographer Pool
To:     NMORGENSTERN                    N. Leonard Morgenstern
Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.
>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe
Date: 09/10/89   Time: 21:21EDT
Attendees:
[[Hadil] H.SABBAGH]
[NMORGENSTERN]
Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> I may have lost the transcript. We will see. Meanwhile I have
<NMORGENSTERN> my own copy.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I was saying that we should suggest
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> to guest speakers that they upload their
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> opening remarks.  Is it easy to do?
<NMORGENSTERN> Some do. It depends on your comm program
<NMORGENSTERN> Some of them upload so fast that it is unreadable.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Is it just ASCII upload?
<NMORGENSTERN> As a result, we have discouraged it. But my system here
<NMORGENSTERN> seems to be ok.  What I do is break the text into small pieces
<NMORGENSTERN> and then TYPE it, which displays it on the screen
<NMORGENSTERN> I can then point to the desired line, press cr
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I see. You are using a comm program in FORTH.
<NMORGENSTERN> and voila, it is transmitted.
<NMORGENSTERN> No it is not in Forth, it is MIRROR, a commercial program.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Ah.
<NMORGENSTERN> There may be  a Forth comm program that does the same, I don't 
know.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I use Procomm+ myself.  You could probably slow
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> output down by including a lot of NULL characters
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> at the end of a line.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> What I use is called "chat" mode. Half the screen is my typing
<NMORGENSTERN> and the other half is feedback from Genie
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Very clever. Like Unix "talk"?
<NMORGENSTERN> TYPE displays the stuff in my half, and I can transmit as I 
indicated
<NMORGENSTERN> Probably.
<NMORGENSTERN> By the way, the important thing in my tutorial is:
<NMORGENSTERN> You can use arithmetic quantities as input to
<NMORGENSTERN> branching operators, like IF and WHILE
<NMORGENSTERN> but be careful!!!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yah. I learned that from C, but if they change
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> the standard, then you're in trouble!
<NMORGENSTERN> Agree.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> They did that from FORTH-79 -> FORTH-83.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Yes, F79 and FigForth used 1 as true and 0 as false.
<NMORGENSTERN> It was very clumsy, and -1 is better but
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So, what do you use Forth for?
<NMORGENSTERN> it broke a lot of code, as they say.
<NMORGENSTERN> I am strictly a hobbyist. I am trying to write a serious
<NMORGENSTERN> application, a small specialized data base thing
<NMORGENSTERN> that may hve commercial possibilities, but it is very slow.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> What the development, or the code?
<NMORGENSTERN> I am a retired pathologist.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Really!
<NMORGENSTERN> I don't want to talk about it in detail. It will be
<NMORGENSTERN> for personal use by anybody, and may possibly be
<NMORGENSTERN> useful to businesses.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<NMORGENSTERN> There are lots of specialized data base programs around,
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> genealogy, libraries, calendars, etc.
<NMORGENSTERN> Hi Jax
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> hi
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Jax.
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> hi Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, I am working on a specialized database in FORTH...
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It is a system for managing patient's medical records.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> for a surgical practice.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Strictly part-time, and a LOT of work.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> ga
<NMORGENSTERN> David Trumpler of Trigon systems in Berkeley has a medical system
<NMORGENSTERN> for physiciamn
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> brb
<[Jax] FIGCHAPTERS> has left.
<NMORGENSTERN> for physicians' offices that he sells commercially
<NMORGENSTERN> Multi user, etc.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, there are a lot of them.
<NMORGENSTERN> He and his cousin wrote a new Forth (about 10 years ago) that
<NMORGENSTERN> they called Pyramid. It was never commercially offered. Then
<NMORGENSTERN> another cousin, a physician, needed help with his "state of
<NMORGENSTERN> the art" office accounting system that he had just bought & paid
<NMORGENSTERN> with Pyramid more easily than he could fix the old one
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<NMORGENSTERN> That is how he got into the business.
<NMORGENSTERN> Pyramid has a lot of novel features.
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> That's very interesting.  I too am aiming for something 
commercial.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> For when I finish my degreen
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am more interested in clinical data processing.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Although I will eventually add the accounting feature.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Trumpler's system is both accounting and clinical records, with
<NMORGENSTERN> emphasis on the former.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Did you hear about the guy who walks up to the pearly 
gates and St. Peter comes out to meet him? The guy is astounded! "This i
s heaven?" "Yes." Says st. Peter ... "That's absurb," says the man, "I'm a 
lawyer ... lawyers don't go to heaven." "I wanted to see you says St. Pete
...
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> " Why?" "I wanted to meet a lawyer who is 147 years 
old" ...
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> "I was only 42 when the truck ran me over!" ... " I 
added up your billable hours".
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Funny.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Funny!
<NMORGENSTERN> Hadil, Have you used MUMPS?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I've read about it. I broke out in hives :-).
<NMORGENSTERN> (No comment, Jax)
<NMORGENSTERN> It was designed as Mass General as a data base for
<NMORGENSTERN> patient records. Very widely used, and has been
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Seriously, it seems to have the same features as Forth +
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> I've been VAX/VWSing lately.
<NMORGENSTERN> ported to many computers
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> persistent data managment.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> oops VMS.
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Jax
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> done
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I know.  Also COSTART is available in PD for about $200.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Sorry, COSTAR.
<NMORGENSTERN> What is COSTAR?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> However, needs $10,000+ for installation!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> COSTAR is a system developed in Mass also in MUMPS.
<NMORGENSTERN> Aah
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It is the canonical AAMRS
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (Automated Ambulatory Medical Record System).
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Looks like you have found a man after yer own heart, 
Len!
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I think that, if you add the data base features
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> ( med records )
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> to Forth, you get a language equivalent to MUMPS.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> (Perhaps better).
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> brb
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> It's been done ...
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> back
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> what's the name of that McDonnell-Douglas med rec 
system based on Forth?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Runs on vaxen
<NMORGENSTERN> Jax, you like Quayle quotes. This is from Parade, which is the
<NMORGENSTERN> magazine section of many papers.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bush may have chosen Quayle because he believed
<NMORGENSTERN> that a man of Quayle's youth, experience,
<NMORGENSTERN> there was little likelihood
<NMORGENSTERN> that a man of Quayle's youth, experience,
<NMORGENSTERN> and intelligence woule upstage him.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> jeez, i know two guys who worked on it, now I forget 
the name ... CYBOS, that's it!
<NMORGENSTERN> . (apologize for duplicate line)
<NMORGENSTERN> ga
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Quayle is dumb, real dumb. He makes Agnew look like 
intellectual giant.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Why do the Republicans always give us criminals or 
morons for high elective office?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Why, Johnny?
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Because ...
<NMORGENSTERN> Paul Simon's wife said that her husband had written 6 books,
<NMORGENSTERN> probably more than Ronald Reagan had ever read.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> The Repubs run things from the boardrooms and the Prexy 
(if Repub) is just a stooge for them.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> They WANT morons in the W.House.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Three worst presidents this century: Harding, Nixon, 
Reagan. Republicans.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Two worst from 1865-1900: Harrison, Grant. Republicans.
<NMORGENSTERN> Jax could you mention the name of that data base program
<NMORGENSTERN> Hadil wasn't here when you put it up.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Yes, it was CYBOS, I believe.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> CYBOS ... medical record system (now owned by McDonnell 
Douglas) in Forth for Vaxen
<NMORGENSTERN> Do you know it, Hadil,
<NMORGENSTERN> .
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> No, no, I just read Jax's message. Where can I get info on 
it?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> ga
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> McDonnell Douglas, I guess.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> It is *old*.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> But still available.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> ( ca. 1975)
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<NMORGENSTERN> REAL old
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Now don't get funny, Len! :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Thanx.  I am also interested in that Berkeley system.
<NMORGENSTERN> MUMPS is that old, but has been through revisions
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Four years is old for software.
<NMORGENSTERN> and has active users groups and bulletin boards.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> MUMPS is here on GEnie.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am still going to write my own, though.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Maybe I can do things a little differently.
<NMORGENSTERN> Don't let us discourage you, Hadil. The value of
<NMORGENSTERN> a system lies less in the cleverness of its programming
<NMORGENSTERN> than on its suitablity to the needs of the users.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> MUMPS on GEnie? No wonder they have it quarantined :-)
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Len: Au contraire.  Talking about this stuff here
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Type MUMPS from any main page prompt.
<NMORGENSTERN> ga Hadil
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> gives me renewed confidence to do this, espcially in a
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> non-Forth world.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> .
<NMORGENSTERN> Forth permits multitasking, etc. which is very useful
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> Dinner calleth, Gentlemens. Ich fohr.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> gnite
<NMORGENSTERN> in an office situation. Muliuser etc. not hard to implement.
<[jaxbak!] FIGCHAPTERS> has left.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bye Jax.
<NMORGENSTERN> It also calleth me, Hadil. Why don't we sign off?
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Ok. Talk to you later.
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH>
<NMORGENSTERN> Good talking to you. Next Thur is Koopeman
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I won't be able to make it, unfortunately.
<NMORGENSTERN> Bye now
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> bye
<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> has left.
=== End of Steno notes. ===