Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference. Date: 09/07/89 Time: 22:12EDT Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN] Items discussed: Question of nite'Do Usenet feeds enhance ForthNet',Still no ACM newsletter for some, TCJ #39/40,1 Oct=SIGForth abstracts deadline, SIGForth submissions address,Phil Koopman conference 14 Sept,real-time programming,sorts,X3/J14 nearing beta,algorithm gotchas. Minutes: is here. is here. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Answer: Yes. Of course it is. <[Gary] GARY-S> it is a GOOD evening Mr. Dave <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What is the question? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep. This has been a very good week, for that matter. <[Gary] GARY-S> Are the interests of ForthNet served by the addition of Usenet feeds <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tell us! It's good to hear that someone is doing well! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I think so. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Got a raise! <[Gary] GARY-S> That is the question, Len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 2*0=0 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Len: That is *real* close to the state of affairs. <[Gary] GARY-S> Hmmm, I'm in compatible company <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "Your time is your own. You can come any time you want <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> before 8 and leave any time you want after 5" <[Gary] GARY-S> Like nudists - no status symbols to worry about <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Actually I've found nude beaches to be much more calm and relaxing than textile beaches. <[Gary] GARY-S> In Tejas ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep. I live up by the Highland Lakes. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> All sorts of places...some clothing optional...some which are "not officially" clothing optional. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I didn't have any hunting clothes, so I had to go hunting bare <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Len: You know my boss! <[Gary] GARY-S> What is the current discussion this Sunday, Len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have committed myself to giving a talk at "Forth Day" Nov. 4 <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Takes the place of annual convention) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> on converting from Pascal to Forth <[Gary] GARY-S> expound, please <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I want lots of jokes. If you can't inform them, at least leave them <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a joke to remember! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> So I want some computer aphorisms, experiences, etc, and jokes too <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to use in the talk. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dave - latest TCJ project - this is free ad time <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> New one should be arriving Any Day Now. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I got 39, I believe. It did not have your coluon. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Next one is an overview of Object Oriented Forth (the suite will be freely available before it goes to print) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> #39 got pushed back to #40. #40 has two columns in it. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (pant pant -- eagerly awaiting copy) <[Gary] GARY-S> I STILL Do not have the ACM Sig-Forth newsletter after promises twice from ACM !!!!!!!!! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The one I am working on now will probably end up as an overview of the ANS Basis. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Gary: Call them and say nasty things. :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> I have <[Gary] GARY-S> I even have an official 'we will do better' letter, but no newsletter <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Of course I have to order my copy of the Basis and download all of Cat 10 first but...) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gary I have 2 copies, will send you 1 <[Gary] GARY-S> That's nice Len, and I refuse to refuse, BUT it won't resolve the real problem <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> After that...I dunno. Possibly some applications (maybe neural nets if I can find my sources again). <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Will send it. I think I got 2nd for participating at Austin <[Gary] GARY-S> You better have LOTS of disk space and time if you plan to grab all of Cat 10 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'll be getting it in chunks. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (It's not so much the disk space as the bill :-) ) <[Gary] GARY-S> Thanks, Len... I do appreciate <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Reminder: Deadline for abstracts for SIGForth '90 is Oct 1 1989! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Get those papers in. <[Gary] GARY-S> sent to who/where <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will attend, d.v. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Howard Harkness <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 3316 Vine Ridge <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Bedford, TExas 76021 <[Gary] GARY-S> And while we are posting notices : next week - here on the GEnie Forth RoundTable, Phil Koopman will make us all stack architecture wi zzards. 9:30 Eastern in room 2, Thursday 14 Sept <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Looking forward to it. <[Gary] GARY-S> Phil promised a lot of software goodies, since the audience will have more non-hardware types <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But will they be handing out beta copies of the 4001 for all attendees? :-) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What is 4001? <[Gary] GARY-S> sure - just reach in your terminal and take yours now <[Gary] GARY-S> 32 bit Harris RTX <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (cuts hands on shards of monitor screen) <[Gary] GARY-S> Put one back <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Maalzel's machine: a chess playing automaton of 100 years ago or so <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> had lost both legs & could fit inside. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It had a real man inside, a wounded Polish officer who <[Gary] GARY-S> Phil does not agree with all of the J-H APL approach - could make for interesting discussion if someone pushes right buttons <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Len: Sort of like the ultimate expert system shell. Passes the input across a link to a guru, and passes the response back to the user. :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> The only representative I will speak to is Jan Ludaswezech (re-incarnate, of course) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> is ther a good source to learn the rudiments of real-time <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> programming? About 2/3 of our talks here are on hardware <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and I don't even know what they are talking ABOUT, much <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> less what they are saying. <[Gary] GARY-S> Len - that would be an excellent question for Phil <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will ask it. <[Gary] GARY-S> good <[Gary] GARY-S> He sure should know resources <[Gary] GARY-S> Happened to recall a computer joke of sorts, Len <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Isn't the bubble sort the joke of sorts? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (wince) <[Gary] GARY-S> This is in reference to AT&T's (lack) of marketing ability with some pretty darn good machines... <[Gary] GARY-S> If they were Kentucky Fried Chicken, they would call themselves. .. <[Gary] GARY-S> 'HOT DEAD CHICKEN' <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Or even ''HOT DEAD FOWL'' <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (''Hot, Dead, Fowl''?) <[Gary] GARY-S> I see a lot of talk about doing divides with shifts... <[Gary] GARY-S> I wonder how many have discovered that can also result in surprise sign changes. <[Gary] GARY-S> :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heheheh. Sure can. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Either a bad algorithm, or a limited one used where it should <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Unless you roll it off and out and ignore what you slough off) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> not have been used. <[Gary] GARY-S> It's easy to forget bullet-proofing till that first wing-shot, Len :-) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> An error check is never valid unless you can test every possible <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> case. Sometimes mathematical proofs will do that for you, but often <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you have to rely of "thorough" testing & hope. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> An error check is never valid. :-) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> rely on, that is <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Bugs strike a deal with the testing code and wait until release) <[Gary] GARY-S> hahahaha <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You have to visualize every possible situation <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sometimes it's hard to visualize the common situations <[Gary] GARY-S> I have had the unpleasant experience of having them hit months after code has cooled and source buried in a corner <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If ever a bug free program is run on a bug free operating system on top of bug free hardware, the Universe as we know it will com e to an end. :-) (paraphrased from either the Tao or the Zen of Programming). <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It never occurs to you that your program will be used in that way. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sort of like computer hardware. It runs on smoke. If you let the smoke out. It sops running. :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> +t <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Witness the first release of Microsoft Word) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> For the Mac <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Users will always do things that the programmer never intended. That's why we have Beta testers. <[Gary] GARY-S> We sent a smoke re-injector as a tech-tip once and discovered just how humorless corporate documentation centers can be <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hehehehehehehehehh. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Has mental picture of an MIS chief trying to jump start an ailing drive with a stogie) <[Gary] GARY-S> It wasn't a damn bit funny at review time <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Calvin Trilling says that satire is difficult to write <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> because it is hard to imagine something so bizarre <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that it won't come to pass. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'll bet. Do ties cut off blood to the humor center of the brain? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom Lehrer quit comedy. "In a world where Henry <[Gary] GARY-S> Forth stuff - did you review the minutes you re-packed len ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kissinger can get the Nobel Peace Prize, there is no room for satire." <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Lehrer also quit comedy to avoid paying money to Werner von Braun) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You mean, did I read them? Yes I did <[Gary] GARY-S> any comments <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not very informative. The BASIS document is the thing to read. <[Gary] GARY-S> do you get the sense less and less is being accomplished ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, but they have gone through most of the issues <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and resolved many of them. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> They hope they are coming down to the wire <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ah well...I'm going to move on. See y'all later. <[Gary] GARY-S> Oh - I agree, My point is, it seems time for a test release is drawing near <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> They were talking about 2 more meetings, Washington in Oct, and ??? in Jan <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Then the draft goes out. It may have to be redone. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> if there are too many criticisms. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (That happened to Fortran, according to Wil Baden) <[Gary] GARY-S> C and Fortran sure were, why should we be the exception ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> We are Less likely to be than they were. <[Gary] GARY-S> Sure has been more opportunity for public input <[Gary] GARY-S> Disappointing response to that opportunity in my view <[Gary] GARY-S> Len - just us, wanna close shop for the nite ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, <[Gary] GARY-S> My sincere wishes for good news. <[Gary] GARY-S> g'nite === End of Steno notes. ===