Minutes of FIGGY BAR Conference. Date: 08/18/88 Time: 21:57EDT Attendees: [[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN] [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Still Jax] VESTA] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [M.WRIGHT12] [[len] NMORGENSTERN] Items discussed : Roll your own Forth, zen Forth, ForthNet ( GEnie, xCFB's, the WELL {maybe Usenet} ), Infix with Forth, PCPursuit, Banner for Mitch Minutes: <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So...are you going to get the message for next weeks meeting on the MAIN GENIE WIDE BANNER??!!?? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who me? <[Gary] GARY-S> Dennis - you met a friend of mine in Leonard's FIGGY, Fun Fong. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (turns stereo up and pours self drinkj) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> bbia <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, he was interesting <[len] NMORGENSTERN> After everybody left, I got 1 interested party... <[len] NMORGENSTERN> who knows nothing about Forth... <[len] NMORGENSTERN> I hope I enticed him to come back. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> , <[Gary] GARY-S> Let's talk a little about roll-your-own Forth tonite - This is a good group for that <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> let me get out my roller :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> back <[Gary] GARY-S> Please do <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (settles back and sips drink as we prepare for a rolling party) <[Gary] GARY-S> Any one actually building from zero ala Lolliger ? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who's Lolliger? <[Gary] GARY-S> Jax - at Vesta ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have a partly finished kernel laying about somewhere does that count? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Friend of mine is. <[Still Jax] VESTA> We meta. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Straight native JSR thread. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've done it, but don't have to anymore <[Gary] GARY-S> From what kernel ? Proprietary ? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Friend of mine is on the team making a Forth chip. <[Still Jax] VESTA> Oh, our kernel is our proprietary romable form of L&P. <[Still Jax] VESTA> With extensions. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dave - That's the honest roll your own - how far along ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (has never seen FORTH without extensions...) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh....partly in machine form...partly sketched out...long since tabled... <[Still Jax] VESTA> Coming in VESTA Forth Sept.88 ... Debugger, Decompiler, Full Screen Editor, ROMable self-booting overlays. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I don't have the time to write one from scratch...I have a very nice Sun forth from Mitch...and am having a ball writing "high le vel language extensions" <[Gary] GARY-S> What did you use at ( can we say Allen ) DSennis <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Dave, do you know Martin Tracy's Zen Forth? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> We used my version of L&P <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Absolute minimum! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Did you see the infix package spread out through Usenet recently? Brilliant! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 4K Forth is Martin's <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Three words and instant no loss of efficiency infix <[Still Jax] VESTA> Dave ... funnier than brilliant! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The idea was excellent. <[Still Jax] VESTA> Cute. <[Gary] GARY-S> The last real roll your own I did was for a Timex 1000 (Sinclair ZX-81) - strictly 79-standard <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Whew....really "low" brow..err..level... <[Still Jax] VESTA> Infix is a neurotic habit more than a notation. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes..but it so wonderfully shows how easy it is to extend forth...and so efficiently. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> A great example of extending the compiler with a minimum of effort. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gee, anyway we could get a copy? <[Still Jax] VESTA> To do something ridiculous. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I did an infix translater back in college <[Gary] GARY-S> Dick Ponntain did a super infix piece - I think in BYTE or DDJ about three months ago <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I can type them in now (from memory)...or upload a copy I guess. (Modifie <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'd love to see one done in Forth <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Here (hold): <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : ) if execute else , then ; immediate <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : infix create ' , immediate does> @ 0 ; <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : imfix create ' , immediate does> @ -1 ; <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> infix defines non-immediate infix versions, imfix defines immediate versions <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (this is from memory...did I misremember, Jax?) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Example: <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> infic +( + <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -c +x <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : test 3 +( 5 ) . ; <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> imfix if( if <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : test2 if( 3 5 = ) abort" bad math chip" then ; <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or even nested <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> infix =( = <[Still Jax] VESTA> ( just came back. they are ALL immediate. The IMFIXX is for the branch instructions.) <[Still Jax] VESTA> ( INFIX is for math operators) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> : test3 if( 4 =( 4 ) -1 then ; <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah...my mistake...infix and imfix are both immediate words. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> imfix defines words which must be run as immediate, infix defines words which are not to be *run* as immediate. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Simple and elegant. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (useless....but elegant) <[Still Jax] VESTA> but i think it is ... <[len] NMORGENSTERN> It's a good demonstration to prove to ... <[Still Jax] VESTA> : test2 if( 3 (= 5) then( ." bad math chip) ; <[len] NMORGENSTERN> the skeptic that RPN really IS isimpler. <[Still Jax] VESTA> RIGHT> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No Jax. <[Still Jax] VESTA> oops 5 0 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The ) must be space seperated (it is a word, not a delimiter) <[Still Jax] VESTA> i mean 5 ) <[Still Jax] VESTA> I KNOW< SILLY! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[Still Jax] VESTA> typo. <[Still Jax] VESTA> foo! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> real qute! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I dont mkae ny typosa. <[Still Jax] VESTA> ( Laying in wait for DHW to make the TINY mistake) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> My. I perfect am, mistakes no maketh I. <[Still Jax] VESTA> cute, right. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> now now boys <[len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm never wrong.... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -y +e <[Still Jax] VESTA> Once I thought I made a mistake, but I was wrong. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> If you can convince me that I am, I'll change... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (not a bug fix....an update) <[len] NMORGENSTERN> my mind, and then I will be right. <[Still Jax] VESTA> No, RPN makes more sense, both in classical math & espec. in comp sci. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> RPN makes sense to computers... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes it does....but this is an example of the beauty and flexibility of FORTH (ghod...I sound like a preacher) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we have been "trained" to use infix <[Still Jax] VESTA> you have .... in europe ... they do math like so: <[Still Jax] VESTA> 12 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Technical adjustments being made) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that was a good example of how simple the conversion can be <[Still Jax] VESTA> 12 + <[Still Jax] VESTA> __ <[Still Jax] VESTA> 24 <[Still Jax] VESTA> So it ain't so strange. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Even LISPish prefix makes more sense than infix <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (technical adjustments completed) <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Polish notation began in Poland (obviously)... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> LISPish? <[Still Jax] VESTA> (doesnt_make_sense Lisp Prefix) <[len] NMORGENSTERN> It was invented by a Logician named Lucasiewicz... <[Still Jax] VESTA> who lived, I think, in France? <[Still Jax] VESTA> or England? <[len] NMORGENSTERN> To formalize logic. He put the operator first. <[Still Jax] VESTA> ( he was dating her after work) is here. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi, M. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have the late binding package *written*..but I haven;t had time to test it yet. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (why is that bloody ; where the ' should be) <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Maybe you have a tic. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What's that, I comma here U* ? <[len] NMORGENSTERN> It's dangerous your asterisk! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And I am sitting on it...thank you very much <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So...gary...*are* you going to get next Thursday's conf. on the GEnie wide banner? <[Gary] GARY-S> I've got the word in and Laura says 'YES' <[Gary] GARY-S> so, we'll see <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, are we talking about RPN or roll your own? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (rolling your own can get you arrested) <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Depends on what you put in it. <[Still Jax] VESTA> Is there really such a thing left ... Forth is pretty well worked out. If I wanted to roll my own Forth ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not if your carefull <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (drinks drink and leafs that subject slone) <[Still Jax] VESTA> I would not use an assembler, I would write a cross assembler in Forth on my <[Still Jax] VESTA> amiga. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> I have been starting something in my head, and that is... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -s +a <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does anyone roll your own (Forth) from scratch anymore? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Friend of mine is. <[Still Jax] VESTA> He is working on the MISC Chip. <[Still Jax] VESTA> They are rolling own Forth for this new Forth engine. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> for just that occasion. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> I have nothing to say! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Forth *is* a religion <[Gary] GARY-S> It is - and that's why we're here <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Deja vu! <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Deja vu all over again. <[Gary] GARY-S> Jax and I are promoting a Forth Net <[Still Jax] VESTA> YEAH ... where ya been! <[Gary] GARY-S> Care to hear more ? <[len] NMORGENSTERN> ga <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> sure <[Still Jax] VESTA> I want to hear where you been. <[Gary] GARY-S> Jax is sysop (fair-witness ) on the WELL <[Still Jax] VESTA> of the Forth conf only. <[Gary] GARY-S> I have set aside a p-d message area for collecting messages to port here and hence the xCFB's <[Still Jax] VESTA> They are waiting for you to collect, mailman. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> !! <[Gary] GARY-S> I have alerted the xCFB's of this and have asked for input <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Will they be sent out on Usenet? <[Gary] GARY-S> I will either open a topic on GEnie for this or.... <[Gary] GARY-S> go with establisheds topics <[Gary] GARY-S> comments ???? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'd either start a new cat, or a new library <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Will it be echoed onto hthe Usenet? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sounds like something that could grow rather large <[Gary] GARY-S> JAX ? <[Still Jax] VESTA> hello? <[Gary] GARY-S> Dennis - then you already agree to tyhe seperate Cat ? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Not to echo to usenet. Just little ForthNet conf. or two. or twelve. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> certanly <[Still Jax] VESTA> We have room for multiple topics on well. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Why not echo? It would liven up the net! (not that ol' Frase' hasn't done his fair share) <[Still Jax] VESTA> start category here: FORTHNET> <[Still Jax] VESTA> Oh F*** usenet. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'd duplicate the structure here <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (temper temper jax) <[Gary] GARY-S> Jax - I'll pick them up this week-end and get the Cat cooking here - did you leave me mail on uploading on the WELL ??? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Usenet is for people like ORR who want to make fun of Forht. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Who's ORR? <[Still Jax] VESTA> yes, gary, and if you have trouble, get someone on line to help. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Spies is like Orr???? <[Gary] GARY-S> will do <[Gary] GARY-S> TNX <[Still Jax] VESTA> Fraser Orr is a mainframer from Scotland. tell me about well <[Still Jax] VESTA> He is a charming fellow, and has livened up the USENET comp. lang.forth. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (actually he is using a Sun workstation....it sure isn't a mainframe) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> We need someone to argue with. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Only 12 meg. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> and at most a SPARC <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-) <[Still Jax] VESTA> I enjoy the interaction with him. He provides an excuse for me and dave and l. brotzman to extoll the virtues of forth. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And oh do we enjoy it. <[Gary] GARY-S> WELL is San Francisco based info system - strictly regional and/or PCPursuitable <[Still Jax] VESTA> WIthout him comp.lang.forth would be dead for months at a time. <[Still Jax] VESTA> The WELL is an international virtual community. <[Still Jax] VESTA> There is nothing like it in telecom! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes....but Juniper is so much cheaper... :-) how do i get omn <[Gary] GARY-S> It IS a HELL of a gateway <[Still Jax] VESTA> It is "on-line california mellow" <[len] NMORGENSTERN> What's Juniper? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Jes' wait till austin makes PCP <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The Austin Unix User's Group gateway <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> $15 year for non-students...$5 for students...unlimited access and time. <[Gary] GARY-S> Is Austin scheduled ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (non-root access that is) <[Still Jax] VESTA> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I dunno...I've been hearing rumors for some time <[len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, I would like to make plans. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But I dunno <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> There are public gateways all over. Cleveland, Chicago, Oakland, Houston, Dallas, Austin at least that I know of (and I am sure t here are many many more). how bout houston <[Still Jax] VESTA> it is on PCP, M>W> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I think so. I have seen posts from "a flat near Montrose by Houston" <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But I am not sure. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Dallas does have one. <[Gary] GARY-S> Dallas is TXDAL <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The problem would be getting in touch with them. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (the gateway) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What are the WELL's rates? <[Still Jax] VESTA> WELL .... <[Still Jax] VESTA> 415-332-6106 8-n-1 7-e-1 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is not what I meant Jax... :-) <[Still Jax] VESTA> $8/mo $3/hr <[Still Jax] VESTA> VAX 11/750 running BSD4.3 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> $8 per month + $3 per hour??????? <[Still Jax] VESTA> Full access to Unix Op System. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Connect time or CPU time? <[Still Jax] VESTA> LOADED with Unix utils <[Gary] GARY-S> CPU <[Still Jax] VESTA> Connect time, dummy :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (every Unix syspem is loaded with utilities ) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Whew... <[Still Jax] VESTA> Not all, not like the WELL. <[Gary] GARY-S> According to the message at sign-on you don't pay for that dead wait as PICO comes on <[Still Jax] VESTA> There is a Grateful Dead conf that fills a hard disk & one/half. I <[Still Jax] VESTA> ga M.W. <[len] NMORGENSTERN> brb <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh. An eagle (550 meg drive?) <[Still Jax] VESTA> 80 meg <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 120 meg of deadheads? <[Still Jax] VESTA> yes Is ther a file on WELL <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> whew <[Still Jax] VESTA> not here, i don't think. Do you want email, M.W.? yes <[Still Jax] VESTA> ok, I will send you after the conf. Thanks <[Still Jax] VESTA> ( JAX is jax on the WELL, btw) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> juniper!olorin <[Gary] GARY-S> GARY-S is gars <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or olorin@walt.cc.utexas.edu <[Gary] GARY-S> any more , troops <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Later gars....time for me to run. has left. <[Still Jax] VESTA> jax@chariot.UUCP but N*O*T jax on BIX ... that is someone else. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bye dave <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (contemplates empty glass) <[Gary] GARY-S> Been a interesting conference - Thanks for the inputs ! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And the interrupts === End of Steno notes. ===