Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 08/17/89   Time: 22:32EDT

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]

   Items discussed include cost/value of JFAR,SigForth ACM N/L...,Moore conf
   in August - Koopman in Sept, Usenet connection to ForthNet,CARRY/OVERFLOW,
   F83/ANSI,Standards process,ANSI as 'clearing house' ONLY,Floored div

Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> hi len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Gary. Sorry to hear about your mother.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Thank you. I appreciate the concern.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My mother went into the hospital a week ago. She is going
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> back to the nursing home today, I think. I have to call my 
sister.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Good Luck. Piece of advice - get in all the love you can
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Do you get JFAR , ACM SIGnews...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes to both
<[Gary] GARY-S> Do you intend to maintain both subscriptions ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes. 1. I like to support anything related to Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and 2. I find occasional useful stuff in all.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I agree in the main, but I have to question percieved value 
versus cost
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am not sure.They are expensive, to be sure
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> %Each one isn't too bad, but they add up.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (I am receiving echo of my own transmission now)
<[Gary] GARY-S> You are also sending % signs
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> On all? When I start "chat" the program sends one
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ahh - that's it
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Otherwise, I don't see them.
<[Kevin] APPERT> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Any thoughts on the Usenet connection(s)
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi Gary, Len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kevin -- ;you & I were alone here last Sunday
<[Gary] GARY-S> hey kev
<[Gary] GARY-S> Looks like Phil Koopman may be the September guest
<[Kevin] APPERT> great
<[Gary] GARY-S> Should get the engine buffs out
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The only problem I have is that there is such
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a huge amount of stuff, I don't have time to read it
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have as much as 200K of back stuff stored.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I'm gonna be out of town for the 24th.  DRAT!
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Geeze - of all the conference NOT to miss, Kev:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I should be here on 24th
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> hi all.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> my answer to the questions is no, maybe.
<[Gary] GARY-S> There apparently will not be discussion on the Buffalo Chip 
next week
<[Kevin] APPERT> I can always read any encyclicals later in the posted record, 
but it just isn't the same as being there
<[Gary] GARY-S> nope - and a lot of folks don't realize that
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> A month ago in the comic strip Funky Winkerbean there was a 
quote from I CHONG
<[Gary] GARY-S> The big objection is the serial format on guest nights, but it 
is essential in my view
<[Gary] GARY-S> and the quote ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, it must be formal.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The Master says: He who aspires to corner the buffalo chp 
market ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> is truly entremanure.
<[Kevin] APPERT> gaaaaaaaaa
<[Gary] GARY-S> that's great
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Was he interred?
<[Gary] GARY-S> shall we send copies to OKI ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> Mr. Moore should love that
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <pun>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <laugh please>
<[Gary] GARY-S> punt is more like it, len
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It was an offal pun.
<[Kevin] APPERT> gaaaaaaaaa
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil - how is 1's compliment argument going ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Well, I think that it will be optional, if not denied.
<[Kevin] APPERT> the dreaded ANSI standard.  I plan to vote with my 
metacompiler!
<[Gary] GARY-S> sure lead to some interesting responses
<[Kevin] APPERT> at least they seem to have gotten a little smarter about 1's 
compl.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil what is your assessment of the ANSI meeting a couple
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have submitted an account of user experience, and it's 
"inconveniteent.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> of weeks ago?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Mixed.
<[Gary] GARY-S> are the usenet ports of interest to you and kev, wil ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> Usenet?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I got some good things.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How so, Wil?
<[Gary] GARY-S> len has already voiced an overload viewpoint
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Control Flow is no longer an issue.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have submitted 8 new proposals since the meeting.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Subjects?
<[Gary] GARY-S> I thought the comments on Chuck were particularly timely
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> When I get the official minutes and copies, I will upload them.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Usenet?  Comments on Chuck?
<[Gary] GARY-S> good
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> (I think the committee should see them first.)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok - Kev, I have been porting usenet messages onto GEnie and 
ForthNet...
<[Gary] GARY-S> for the ones on Chuck see Cat 1, Topic 12
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> You DO have the first one on "Division is not portable."
<[Kevin] APPERT> ok.  I have not being looking in the BBS areas for a long time.
  I'll have a peak.  Thanks
<[Gary] GARY-S> We will also be posting a ForthNet (edited) news item to comp.
lang.forth per requests
<[Gary] GARY-S> was that to me wil ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Public.
<[Gary] GARY-S> yes - and one of the respondents, Koopman, will be a guest 
(probably Sept)
<[Gary] GARY-S> silence is deadly
<[Kevin] APPERT> and expensive
<[Gary] GARY-S> so start a thread
<[Gary] GARY-S> this isn't 'GARY SPEAKS' !
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I'm having telephone problems.
<[Gary] GARY-S> pay the bill
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (When I have nothing to say, I say it)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I tried  4 times to download a file, and aborted each time.
<[Kevin] APPERT> anybody interested in adding CARRY to Forth arithm.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What do you mean, Kevin?
<[Kevin] APPERT> using xmodem, Wil?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Let's hear it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> You might take this opportunity to tell the world what 
subject(s) you plan to cover in Sunday's FIGGY, Len
<[Gary] GARY-S> excuse me Kev - yes
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Kev, yes.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Wil, did you get the # of the port you were on when you were 
having problems.  GEnie likes to know if they have equipment problems.
<[Gary] GARY-S> please do
<[Kevin] APPERT> Carry, and Overflow have been a topic of some interest to me 
for a time.  I have often wondered why they are not in Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My guess is that they would be needed only for
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> specialized applications, & then you would write your own
<[Kevin] APPERT> it makes it significantly easier to add multi-word precision 
operations, which are fairly general though.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Carry flag is commonly used in Real-time control, so that's a 
good question
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> uh,
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> the trouble with carry is that *Forth has very little 
environment.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The state of a program is given by
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> data stack depth, return stack depth, and
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> i.p.
<[Kevin] APPERT> perhaps a set of special operations which all leave 
carry/borrow in a user
<[Gary] GARY-S> carry , in machine control often indicates process complete
<[Kevin] APPERT> variable, or in a flag on the stack?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Forth unlike Novix chip has now hidden state variables to 
maintain in a context switch.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Also 0 SWAP 0 D+ gives you add with carry.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Great!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will remember that.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> But yes, i wud hav liked Forth to hav had carry.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I'm in favor of not screwing with the syntax or symantics of 
words now defined.  I think one of the biggest mistakes in F83 is redifi
ning /
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> In what way did F83 redefine /  ???
<[Kevin] APPERT> from the previous standard.  Floored devision.  Remember?
<[Kevin] APPERT> oops, division (sp)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, that was about the time I got really serious about 
Forth
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Len will bear me out that Forth 83 is not a standard
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Disagree. It is a standard. You would be right to say
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Whenever it was called such I objected at ANSI, and I shall 
continue to.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that it has not been as well accepted as some would like.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> At 1987 FIG convention,
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> the framers of Forth 83 publically admitted ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> oops,  f83 in this case is the 83 standard,  I should make 
that clear!  I didn't intend (though it's what I typed) the f83 implementa
tion by Laxen/Perry
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> that  they did not try to standardize, but ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> define what they thot Forth shud be.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yes, F83 made Forth 83.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am surprised to hear that. They certainly acted as if 
they
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> were trying to formulate a standard.
<[Gary] GARY-S> With readings and oversite by Kim Harris
<[Kevin] APPERT> except the ones who disagreed and thought it was a standard
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> They did not try to standardize what Forth was, but decree 
what they thoughjt
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> it should be.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Floored division has cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and 
will cost even more.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What they are doing at ANSI is the same: they are trying
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (sorry)tallize qhat
<[Gary] GARY-S> How would you characterize your F83X in that context, wil ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I recognized that F83 was very good,
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> and I accepted it as a standard.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What they are doing at ANSI is the same: they are trying
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to standardize what is done, and what they think it should 
be
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> sometimes switching from one to the other in one sentence.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The X is for extended or experimental, I never deciedd.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Say again, Len, u were scrampble.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The people at ANSI were doing two things at the same time
<[Kevin] APPERT> even though they are charged with the task of codifing 
existant practice, the ANSI folks seem to be wandering off into the bush.  I 
think they are able to find somebody who has tried anything, but that doesn't 
make it common practice.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 1: set forth what people are doing
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 2: set up an ideal standard
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The latter is "what Forth should be" and the former "what 
it is"
<[Gary] GARY-S> You do realize that ANSI (the organization itself) does not 
actually set ANY standards ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sometimes, a speaker would switch from one to the other in 
a few moments
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes they do. When the committee reports to them and they 
accept the report
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> it becomes standard.
<[Kevin] APPERT> nooooooo, they just sell them!
<[Gary] GARY-S> no len, THEY Definitely do NOT
<[Gary] GARY-S> From ANSI's own draft - ANSI itself does not write standards, 
but only acts as anational "clearing house". end quote
<[Gary] GARY-S> as quoted in the 1989 Compliance Engineering Reference Guide
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> IT DOES NOT BECOME STANDARD UNTIL THE WORLD ACCEPTS IT.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Webster "only" sells dictionaries. Don't tell me that 
those aren't standard!
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Len, were you there when I told of the Fortran 77 experience?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> That could and should happen here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil, how accepted does a proposed standard have to be to 
be Standard?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> ANSI is objective about the standards they pubish.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Nothing will be accepted by everybody.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> All they want is something to sell.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> They don't care what we decide.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Let me tell about Fortran 77 one more time ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It won't sell if it is no good. If it is good, then it 
will become an adhered-to
<[Kevin] APPERT> didn't I say that?
<[Gary] GARY-S> They do care about the manner in which it is decided
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> standard
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga Wil
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> In 1975 we believed we were done, so we scheduled meetings in 
1976 ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> in different parts of the country ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> to show off what we had done. ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Because of the time delay, we decided to call the standard ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> FFortran tent meetings.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Fortran 77, although we were done in 1976.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The Fortran community did not like what we had done with IF ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> And made us go back into meetings for another half year (6 
meetings)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The result is that Fortran 77 has an ANSI number of "78" for 
1978.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The same could happen.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It should have happened to Forth 83.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Probably Forth 89 will come out in the year 2000)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is it going to be titled ANSForth or Forth-xx
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> ANS Forth
<[Kevin] APPERT> the 83 team was not constrained to the outside input like ANS
<[Gary] GARY-S> as in ANSI 'C' (funny way to spell turbo Pascal)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Wil, what ever made you get involved in another standards 
argument ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> In 1983 I wrote a letter to Forth Dimensions, which FIG 
declined to publish.
<[Gary] GARY-S> that said....?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Gary, I don't know how to answer that.
<[Kevin] APPERT> There is a student who works for us during the summer.  A few 
years ago he poo-pooed Forth and said Pascal would be the language in w
hich everything is written.  Now he thinks the same is true, only he has 
substituted C
<[Kevin] APPERT> what did your letter to FD say, Wil?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I said the same things we are saying today.  ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> did they give any reason why they did not wish to publish it?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I think it was censored because
<[Wil] W.BADEN1>  of the influence of FIG members who were on FST.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Of course, the forum (GEnie Forth RoundTable) now exists for 
all arguments, and people decline to use it (interesting ?, sad?
 apathetic ?.....)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> In truth it was abrasive.
<[Gary] GARY-S> so what - did it have merit ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> But six years later I still believe the same way.
<[Kevin] APPERT> riddle : What kind of game has only one team and several 
referees?  ans: Standardizing Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "I don't know what language engineers will use in the 90's,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but I know what it will be called." Anon
<[Kevin] APPERT> but the'll call it
<[Gary] GARY-S> last shots gentlemen
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> What kind of game do the refereess do all the playing.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Fortron.  (because they won't be able to spell by then... 
lousy education)
<[Gary] GARY-S> tron is in - sounds good
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's not anon. It's Loren Meisner of LRL>
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Meissner.
<[Kevin] APPERT> let's do a new Forth-like language and call it ANON
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Let's call it a night.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It first appeared in Fortran committee material.
<[Gary] GARY-S> was Fortran 77 an adaptation of Fortran IV or vs/versa
<[Kevin] APPERT> we could hold a contest for names for Forth-like languages:
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> FORTRAN iv was the BASIS>
<[Gary] GARY-S> Bet REPTL will be entered
<[Kevin] APPERT> Dead Lizzard
<[Kevin] APPERT> Spent Sidearm
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> "Forth 83 is soggy -- half baked and all wet"
<[Kevin] APPERT> Why don't we call it..... FORTRAN   ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> but floored division is now a part of the bagage
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> "Like the curate's breakfast egg, parts of it are good."
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Gary, no.
<[Kevin] APPERT> how about _/____      for floored div?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> There is 18 years of experience with truncating division, and
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> 6 years with flooring.
<[Kevin] APPERT> tile floored division?
<[Gary] GARY-S> where do you throw away what ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Kev, say again.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Defer / & switch as desired.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Thers a lot of floored division in six years compared to the 
preceeding 18
<[Kevin] APPERT> tile floored division?  ( it was a joke)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Impractial
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Gary, are you sure?
<[Gary] GARY-S> This is not a matter of preference, just being pragmatic
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I think that existing applications outnumber new ones
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> using it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I still see a lot of shops using FIG and derivitives so you may 
be right
<[Kevin] APPERT> it's time.  dinner's ready.  night all.  good typing with you 
all.
<[Kevin] APPERT> has left.
<[Gary] GARY-S> yeah - roll up the tent
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Dont forget MMS and polyForth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye Kevin. I have to leave also. Very stimlating
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has left.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I hope you're right
<[Gary] GARY-S> g'nite wil
<[Gary] GARY-S> enjoyed
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> G'nite .
=== End of Steno notes. ===