Minutes of the FIGGY BAR 
Date: 08/11/88   Time: 22:23EDT
             
Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Rock] R.FRANZEN]
[[Jax Only] VESTA]
[[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN]
              
Items discussed : Mitch Bradley conference, ACM Forth bash, self-fetching
                  variables, multiple cfa's, re-writes at Vesta
Minutes:
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah...but I sent Mitch a letter this afternoon, when I 
got your letter.
<[Gary] GARY-S> No he didn't Dave - did you notice the date for Mitch's 
conference ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The 25th
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is that ok with you, since you set this up ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I t's fine by me
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It's odd though...because I wrote him to say that time was 
short, this afternoon.
<[Gary] GARY-S> GREAT - I couldn't remember for sure and wanted to be sure you 
could make it
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sigh. I'll send him a "see you on the 25th" letter after 
this.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Blame it on me - I didn't check the Well this week
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oho...so he did send it to the well.
<R.FRANZEN> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> yeah - apparently
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey rock
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> hi
<[Gary] GARY-S> I sure wish I could locate an easier to get to gateway
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Welll...if austin were PCPable it'd be easy.
<[Gary] GARY-S> BUT Austin ain't
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So ask for it to be added to PCP..
<[Gary] GARY-S> They can't get on some cities they added 6 months ago
<[Gary] GARY-S> Anyway - back to Forth on GEnie - what's cooking Dave/Rock ?
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Not much here.  Messing with Multi-FORTH for Amiga at home.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The conf. is comin' along.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Interesting comment on the BBS, Rock, glad to see it posted. 
Thanks
<[Gary] GARY-S> Don't forget to post updates as they occur, Dave
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> BBS comment concerning Harris?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Right, Rock
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That's Dan's job (*somebody elses business*) :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Still hotel hunting.
<[Gary] GARY-S> That smacks of 'I can't be bothered ' ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Does it now?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Do the hotel hide in Austin ? :-)
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Are either of you associated with FIG?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The hotel am in Austin
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (all o' dem)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Only as a volunteer on here, Rock, why ???
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> I let my membership slip a year ago, and I don't know what...
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> they've been up to.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Leave e-mail to FIG, copy JANNY
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh. I only joined ACM 'cause I was on the conf. committee.
..and thought it might be a good idea to be a member. :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <- not much for joining organizations
<[Gary] GARY-S> Most Forthens aren't big on joining things Dave
<[Gary] GARY-S> Does anyone know who the foundry is that is going to punch out 
the J-H APL chips ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ($5/hr pauses are not golden)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No...but I want samples...
<[Gary] GARY-S> You and bunches of others
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> We seem to be an exciting bunch tonight!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> brb
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hey - I can't sit here and talk to myself - join in - raise 
issues... stuff
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> How will the apl chips compare to Harris RTX?  speed, etc.
<[Gary] GARY-S> You really need to look at the conference we had with 
John-Hopkins Rock.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> back -- aaahhhh refreshing
<[Gary] GARY-S> It is a impressice piece of silicon
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> which library?
<[Gary] GARY-S> On here ! Library 1
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> I'm just getting used to GEnie, and don't navigate well yet.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Browse for APL or Johns-Hopkins
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> thanks, that's what I needed.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So....what should we discuss?
<[Gary] GARY-S> From the main prompt go to the library (3)
<VESTA> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey Jax
<[Gary] GARY-S> then select (3) Search
<VESTA> Foobar!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You ought to be ashamed of yourself for what you posted to 
comp.lang.forth!
<[Gary] GARY-S> How are the ladies at Jax domicile
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Say wha?
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Ladies are asleep, that's why I can telecom
<[Gary] GARY-S> which wha?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 10000 0 do read-ting :-) loop
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is awful
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Factor ! Factor ! Factor !
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> I never cease to learn from his stuff.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 10000 0 do ting read :-) loop
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> verb noun
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Factor Factor Factor
<[Gary] GARY-S> nice, Dave
<[Actually Jax] VESTA>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> shame shame shame
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Dave, I don't follow do loop.  Joke? what?
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Lame joke.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> C programmer-lame joke
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> read-ting is a poorly factored word
<[Gary] GARY-S> from addeled minds come small thoughts
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> like create-file ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It is C or Pascal 'esque
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> or read-block?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> In Forth you should seperate nouns and verbs
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> or write-block?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Only hyphenate when there is no other chance
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Interesting point!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -chance +choice
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Thinking FORTH addresses this)
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Actually very often I findmyself thinking that 
theoretically as I write another hyphenated word.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> But there you go. "Forth isn't the whole answer, either" 
_C. Moore.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Any messages showing up on the Forth-net ?
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> The kind of verbs one uses in a natural language
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> are actually ...
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> hyphenation-cure 3-char+lngth-header =
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Multiple code-field objects.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> ( to R.F) TRUE
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> but a TRUE that = 1, not -1 :-) )
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> This is very apt. But multiple CFA is a really nice idea.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Gary, left you email about that.
<[Gary] GARY-S> on here or Well ?
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Well. Need to "seed" your garden to make it grow.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> The WELL tends to be ...
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> a self-contained universe, like so many little "worlds" 
of Californians!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Hard to access via PCP when you are knocking down 16 hour days
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> You have to help them grasp the conpt ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Really...I like systems that are '...'
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> that there are more ...
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> than 4 Forth programmers in the world!
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Yeah, and PCPursuit gets worse all the time.
<[Gary] GARY-S> AMEN
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> The only reason they are able to continue to run uch a 
lame
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> "service" ( gasp)
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> is that
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> They have no competition.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> .
<[Gary] GARY-S> Well - anyway that's why - so now you know
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> never used 'pursuit.  CompuServe is my "other" service.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Have we any multiple-cfa implementations in the library?
<[Gary] GARY-S> feed the kitties for me - I'll be back shortly OK
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> hurry back ... hope everything comes out all right.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> ... :_)
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Dave, what would select which code field to use?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The object.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> So I have caught a couple DWeinsteinian postings on NET.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Multiple CFAs are essentially operator overtyping for 
FORTH.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Some sort of index into ,ble.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> The object works as an offset into the field of code fields?
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> argh! that's not what I typed!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh....have you caught my anti-orr flame about Novix?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sure its not.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Some sort of offset into the object from the stack ...
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> or the setting of a variable somewhere.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Plenty of ways to implement it. It involves rewriting most 
of FORTH
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Orr is interesting. He is a lot more intelligent that a 
lot of the people he argues with, but he's still wrong about some thing
s.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Early in the kernel, too
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It is essentially an overtyping FORTH
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It makes FORTH a strongly typed language, though.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Strongly typed language == one in which you have to do a 
lot of typing.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> don't have to go deep into kernel...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sure you do.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Rock - get a copy of BBL to see some strange CFA manipulation - 
Roedy Greene did a strange there
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> you can create this kind of thng with CREATE
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> header cfa(identify.as.multiple.cfa) cfa1 cfa2 cfa3 pfa
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Remember that when an integer is typed at the "ok" prompt, 
in a multi-CFA Forth you can't just put the value on the stac.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You have to put an identifier somewhere.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> I have created some odd objects in my time.
<[Gary] GARY-S> You can also vector, but if you want it to cook you have to 
re-write
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 'scuse me whilst I freshen my drink
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> You know, I have seen those articles about self-fetching 
vars etc ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> kool- aid
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> I have done stuff like that ...
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> but always in the context of utilities, never with the 
idea ...
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> that that sort of thing would really add to the Forth 
kernel itself.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> back
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have no reason to do something like that, really
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> now I'm thirsty.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> This is not for thirst.
<[Gary] GARY-S> another kool-aid commin' up
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Irish is not kool-aid
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Colorado Kool-Aid ... Killians Ale.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Naw, jax - Coors
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (L.A. Law theme here)
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Killians IS Coors.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'll pass on the coors. I'll have somethin' stronger. Like 
tea.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Concerning "self-fetching" variables...
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jax/Rock catch the post that Mitch Bradley will be conf guest 
on the 25th ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (bows)
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jax - pass the word, please
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Good, tell him to bring his Forth with him! :-)
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> they seem to be catching-on in the Amiga forth world.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> How so Rock.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Self fetching vars are easy to implement.
<[Gary] GARY-S> go on
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> MultiFORTH and JFORTH both have them embedded deep in kernel.
..
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> lots of programming examples given showing them being used.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> ga
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Like all tools....they have their place. The beauty of 
FORTH is that it lets you customize your tools to do exactly what they mus
t.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> right.
<[Actually Jax] VESTA> Speaking of which
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> We have been remodelling our Vesta Forth!
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> It is pretty interesting.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Vesta boards are designed so that ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> You don't need anything but the board itself to develop 
for the Board ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Except a dumb terminal!
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> That was the original idea.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> And it still holds ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> but we are modernizing to give a nicely featured F83.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> battery backed up ram?
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Several of our boards have always been able to use a disk 
drive ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> now the rommed, romable F83 that we provide ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> will be able to handle HOSTED mode ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> that is, you will be able to use a program we provide on 
a PC/XT/AT ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> and the board will "know" how to demand hosted disk 
service from the PC host,
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> including the ability to save the current dictionary into 
a ROMable disk file ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> that when burned into a ROM will auto-self-restore and 
auto-start!
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> All that ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> and a neat but economical Full Screen Editor for ANSI 
terminals, too!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And it cooks too
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Rock ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> we sometimes use battery backed ram.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> But not always. But all our boards use SRAM.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> .
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Almost forgot!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> SRAM is so much nicer to design for.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> FLOATING POINT!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> IEEE standard?
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> What drives VESTA board? (cpu)
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Pretty much.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What cpu?
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> VESTA BOARDS: SBC88 ( 8088) TINY188 ( 80188) OEM188 ( 
80188) MICRO88 ( 8088)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ych
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> They are crowd pleasers.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did I hear a 68000 Ych ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Intel??? Please
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> !!
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> We offer FORTH, BASIC and C.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 68k, 32k....much better
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Main function of boards is embedded controller?
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> They are CHEEP compared to a lot of controller 
development environments.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 80188 as a controller??????
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Yes, Rock. They are designed so that you can develop your 
app ..
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jax - you guys need to get into ESP
<[Gary] GARY-S> The new CLM rag
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> with a minimum of bullshit so that you can start making 
money, possibly moving up to a custom board.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Yes, GAR, am already on their BBS to negociate a deal!
<[Gary] GARY-S> good move
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Anyway, the MICRO88 is designed especially ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> That COULD be a hell of a neat magazine - I sure hope so !
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> to that i/o will occur via a second experimental board of 
the customer's or VESTA's design ...
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> WHich then can later be redesigned into a unitary board 
based on the MICRO88
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> be specialize in custom board design and custom FORTH 
software.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> our board BIOS is DOS 2.1 compatible.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> So that you can run vanilla DOS programs on thos e of our 
boards which use ..
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> disk drives.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> How 'bout true 16-bit bus?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not on a 188 system
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its an 8 bit bus version of the 186
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> backward too
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Ever put your finger on one of those 188's? They run HOT .
..!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHy oh why do people use Intel chips?
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> Because they are CHEEP >>>
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> and everyone knows intel assembly language.
<[Gary] GARY-S> and they work
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Our application is used to working in 16-bit dma world.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> and there are TONS of peripheral chips available for all 
sorts of custom projects.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You can buy a 68000 for 5 or 6 bucks. And they are much 
easier to program in assembly.
<[VESTA Rules] VESTA> And much more expensive to design around.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Still a better chip
<[Jax Only] VESTA> My preference would be for Novix, Super8 and Z320 ( 
32-banger)
<[Jax Only] VESTA> If you want to pay for a custom design, it's yours!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I want an RTX 2000.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> [ARock, do you need a board?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And a JH-APL.
<[Gary] GARY-S> i want j-h apl
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> An a Cray.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> me too. Order a dozen.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> We may be redesigning away from Q-bus to intel bus.  as you 
say...
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> cheep!
<[Gary] GARY-S> a dozen cray, rtx or jh ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> yes
<[Jax Only] VESTA> RIght it's the peripherals and their availablility that make 
the diff.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> Why not check out our boards? They really are qutie flexible 
...
<[Jax Only] VESTA> and we can design custom rather inexpensively compared to a 
lot of shops.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> >> lo overhead <<< ( jax works cheap! :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You get what you pay for. :-)
<[Jax Only] VESTA> Cost of Living in Colorado is low compared to California, 
where I used to live.
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> I'll send you Email asking for info.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> I had a studio in san fran for 500
<[Rock] R.FRANZEN> (wait!  I just did!)
<[Jax Only] VESTA> will do, rock. Email JAX or VESTA or S.WHEELER.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> now i have a fourplex for 475 in Colo.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> 1/2mile from Coors. What could be better? :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Bye y'all.
<[Jax Only] VESTA> nite!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left.
<[Gary] GARY-S> g'nite
<[Jax Only] VESTA> ROCK email yr mail addr.
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