Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Dr. Watson

Date: 08/10/89   Time: 22:15EDT
Attendees:
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1]
[[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN]
[J.PURPLE]
[P.ZAWASKY]
[HONKYTONK]

Minutes:
<APPERT> is here.
<D.RUFFER> hi kevin
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi Dennis
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what's happening?
<[Kevin] APPERT> < going to get some tortilla chips and salsa other than
     that, nothing much you?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok, I'm eating right now too otherwise, I'm just
     working on the same thing, here in LA for a couple of weeks, then back
     to Rochester
<[Kevin] APPERT> jet commutes are always a lot of fun
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, this last time, my ears got so clogged, I've got a
     doctor's appointment tomorrow to (hopefully make them better again
<[Kevin] APPERT> what happened sunday? nobody here!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ended up taking today off sick (no sleep last night :-(
     I was wondering if that happened I had a note in my daytimer to cover
     it, but missed it
<[Kevin] APPERT> ear infections are nasty!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I still haven't got use to the time changes
<[Kevin] APPERT> I was a little late, but hung around 1/2 hour
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, got an infection in both ears now
<[Kevin] APPERT> owwwwwwwwwwwww
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Switching time zones all the time is sure confusing I
     need to remember where I am going to be when I write notes in my
     daytimer
<DHWEINSTEIN> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi dave
<[Kevin] APPERT> you remember a while ago I was talking about carry and
     overflow in Forth arithmetic?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi Dave
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> don't remember, but go ahead and talk about it
<[Kevin] APPERT> naaaaa, just wanted to say there are a couple of other
     folks talking about the same thing I heard about.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Just dropping in to say hey.
<[Kevin] APPERT> what's new, Dave  ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not much. Facing *deadlines* everywhere.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well hay dave, aren't you going to stay? <frown>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> For a bit. Not too long.
<[Kevin] APPERT> how long till retirement for you, Dave?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sounds like the column is keeping you pretty busy
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hmmmnn......first I need to get a degree. :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> :)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well...in this case it isn't so much the column, as
     what its about.
<[Kevin] APPERT> it doesn't get any better
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I am writing about Object Oriented Forth, and write
     now the object environment is a moving target.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah yes, who's objects are you going towrite about?
<[Kevin] APPERT> who is moving it?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Polymorphism, auto-initialization, dynamic object
     construction, and message continuation are all in the to-do queue)
     Well...ahh...err....welll....ummm....me.
<[Kevin] APPERT> what fun!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the more you know.....
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Bye SIGForth '89 I will have a demo OO system built
     around F-PC 2.25 including virtual memory, object libraries, dynamic
     object construction, etc up and running. (And will promptly run out of
     space in F-PC. Sigh)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and finding time to program too...impressive <smile>
     run out of space???
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> My job-job is 8-5. I can leave it when I leave the
     office. Well there is only a certain amount of code space
     available...and I use headers like a madman. :-) (Not to mention
     vocabularies)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sounds like you need to get your data objects out of
     the dictionary
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have all (or most of) the parts...I need to
     integrate them.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> has anyone done a database for F-PC yet?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is the point of the virtual memory. (That code is
     written and seems to be debugged...it better be...I released it at
     SIGForth '89) Err....that should be SIGForth '90 above.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does that also mean you haven't released it yet
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Writing code for modules and records made the OO code
     possible.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> don't remember seeing it
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No...the virtual memory code should be in the SIGForth
     proceedings, but I am not sure it *can* be uploaded here.
<[Kevin] APPERT> no, the oops stuf is gonna be released in 90, the ... vm
     code was released in 89 why not uploadable?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Is ACM going to stop the articles from being uploaded?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I need to check the ACM legalities. ACM owns the
     copyright to the VM code. (A mistake which will not be made with the
     OO code).
<[Kevin] APPERT> why do they own copywrite>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I think it can be uploaded if the ACM copyright is
     acknowledged, but I am not sure. Because it was included with the
     paper. And I signed a piece of paper saying so. (The paper made no
     sense without the code, and I wanted the paper to make sense).
<[Kevin] APPERT> hmmmmmmmm.  I guess I was asking why you signed the paper.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I am pretty sure it can be duplicated if copyright is
     acknowledged, but I have to check.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, then just make enough changes to the code to make
     it look different and upload it as new and improved <grin>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not really sure. It seemed like a good idea at the
     time. Dennis: I'll just wait for the port to F-TZ. :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that will work also :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> I don't think they care much if you (c) the thing yourself
     do they?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Of course you just need to get the proceedings, and
     then you can use a "scholarly paper" (snicker) as a basis for your own
     version. Hold on a sec.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hold on to what???
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (I'm checking something)
<[Kevin] APPERT> just ask Zerox, APPLE HAS MORE LAWYERS THAN ENGINEERS!!!!
     &#$!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I wonder if ACM's copyright is the same as FIG's.... it
     is just there to protect the author... not to claim that FIG has
     exclusive rights...
<[Kevin] APPERT> may beeeeeeeeee
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the word "exclusive" is the key.... if it appears in
     the ACM documents, then Dave is in trouble... as well as any author
     who writes for them .
<[Kevin] APPERT> there is a great phrase in one of the Heinlein novels ....
     about an alternate universe in which they had... a "year they hanged
     the lawyers"
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> must have been utopia
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Nope. Just checked. No specific (c) in the code
     itself. Although authorship is acknowledged. Lemme check my ACM
     legalisms guide (TM) for a sec.
<[Kevin] APPERT> ,well if you ran over somebody while drunk, they run you
     over, leave you lying for the same amount of time... and so on
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> tis a shame that even us programmers have to worry
     about that stuff these days the classic eye for an eye senario
<[Kevin] APPERT> did the internet worm have a copywright notice?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> smile, it violated it itself
<[Kevin] APPERT> the author could sue!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I think it is under the "Copying without fee is
     permitted provided that the copies are not made or distributed for
     direct commercial advantage and credit to the source is given." So
     GEnie is out, as it charges for distribution, but Usenet or Forthnet
     are in. I think.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> NO
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN>$Disclaimer: I don't even admit to knowing lawyers.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> GEnie charges for access, not distribution all you have
     to do is tell where it came from and it sounds like the ACM clause is
     satisfied
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ahhh. I dunno. I assume, as ACM is for professionals,
     that use of code from ACM is allowed (otherwise it doesn't do
     professionals much good), but I don't know.
<[Kevin] APPERT> hmmmmmmmmmm  I don't understand what the diff is in the
     eyes of the law
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'll call ACM and find out. (I'm still translating the
     %R^&$$%& local Sig guidlines for the newsletter)
<[Kevin] APPERT> between access and distribution
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Basically what it comes down to is that if I can
     upload it, I'd be glad to.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> The difference is subtle kevin, but there GEnie is like
     paying for a subscription to a magazine
<[Kevin] APPERT> can I upload 123, debase, and wordstar, then?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and getting the code in it.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Things are much easier in dealing with _TCJ_)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no, I would have to delete those kevin however, even
     places like PC-SIG can distribute
<[Kevin] APPERT> so if ACM 'owns' Dave's code... ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> public domain and things with copyrights like this and
     even charge for the media
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well they do hold the copyright. That much I gave
     them.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is essentially all GEnie is doing GEnie is
     charging you to use this electronic media
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ahh...but ACM does not allow charges for media. I
     don't think.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but even they charge for the media
<[Kevin] APPERT> they don't have the choice, as it turns out
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you have to join ACM to get the magazine
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (The idea was more or less to give it as wide a
     distribution as possible)
<[Kevin] APPERT> it's like Rockwell saying "we can use Abundance" .  What
     does the owner own?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No...you can buy the proceedings seperately. And
     typing in the code for your own use surely counts as "fair use".
     (fload disclaimer.doc)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the key word there Dave, is that you can BUY the
     proceedings
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes. But ACM can do whatever it wants (it has the
     copyright...with some restrictions). Other people are another matter.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the Rockwell case is different kevin
<[Kevin] APPERT> somebody talk about NEXT or something, this legal $%^#
     makes me ill!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (For example, I believe I retain the right to use my
     work for future works)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there, Rockwell doesn't think the Abundance folks have
     enough muscle to do anything about it
<[Kevin] APPERT> yes, Dennis, it sure is!  but I was making the point that
     even if you own the
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I sure hope you do dave <smile>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Talk on Usenet a while back concerned a Forth for the
     Am29000. (keeping the stacks in registers)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If I were a lawyer I'd live better, have more money,
     and fewer scruples than I do now. So I dunno.
<[Kevin] APPERT> (c) to a piece of software, you can't always set the
     conditions under which it is used!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> true
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Caveat: I still don't understand the Am29000
     instruction set)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what about the am29000?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes...but I signed a piece of paper stating copyright
     transfer.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how many registers does it have?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> RISC Chip which now has a controller version. 192 I
     think. 128 "local" variables.
<[Kevin] APPERT> yaaayyyyy.  what about the am29k?  the reason you became
     an engineer (billboard in silicon valley)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I think they are register stacks (the locals) ala the
     A-B-C registers of the transputer, but I am not sure. (That was the
     impression I got)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> enough to make a small stack
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hasn't been implemented, just talked about. Now if AMD
     (which has a big plant in Austin) would send me a development board
     I'd be glad to do it for them (sleep...I don't need it...I can run on
     caffeine and willpower for months :-) )
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> BTW: Anyone heard anything new about the RTX-4001?
<[Kevin] APPERT> 128 registers a small stack?  are you putting the entire
     contents of a prom on there or something?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> put those cases of Jolt in the corner <grin>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Or for that matter any Forth chip looking for beta-
     testers) :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> haven't heard any more about the 4001 yet
<[Kevin] APPERT> like I said, it won't get any better.  Ancient Chinese
     curse:  may you live in interesting times.  these are them
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if you want both a return and a parameter stack, then
     you only have 64 each it is probably enough, if you don't do extensive
     recursion
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Tell me about it. Work. Class. Programming. Writing.
     Figuring out how to pay the bills (an art in itself). Music. Keeping
     the cat as far from mischief as possible (also an art in itself).
     Sleep: n. mythical (grin)
<[Kevin] APPERT> computer Snoopy:  " Recurse you Red Barron! "
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I like interesting times. If it weren't interesting,
     it wouldn't be fun. Of course I would get more rest...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we sure ain't getting bored
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh. Almost forgot. Politics (annoying, irritating, and
     a lost cause, but still something I persist in).
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not that too :-) I'll stick to religion it's safer
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Depends on where you live. :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> tis true, religion in Lebanon can get quite tense
<R.SCHEMMEL1> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ho Bob how's the other side of the mountains nice name
     bob :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ah well. I need to run. All this legalisms worn me
     out. Bye.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bye dave
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how's the telecom program coming bob?
<R.SCHEMMEL1> Haven't got that far yet.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so how far have you gotten (obvious question ;-)
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I am still in the "basics" stage of trying to learn how to
     write programs. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you figured out how to do it yet?
<[Kevin] APPERT> in Forth?  you don't write programs.  you build pieces,
     you fiddle around, you exercise functions,  I don't ever remember ever
     writing a program
<R.SCHEMMEL1> It comes down to what Glen Hayden said; To learn forth you
     have to make the concepts in the dictionary a working part of your
     life.
<[Kevin] APPERT> be the code
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is sure a problem when you forget what you wrote
     when you started a project
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I think too much too soon bogs you down in the bbeginning.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the key is to keep the pieces small
<[Kevin] APPERT> reminds me of how one slices a bagel
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then start gathering them together into something that
     resembles what you want
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I am trying to lighten the load by limiting myself to fewer
     words
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what do bagels have to do with programming kevin???
<R.SCHEMMEL1> until I can form an intelligible sentence.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I meI mean Chuck Moore.
<[Kevin] APPERT> carol who?
<D.RUFFER> :-)   just another snographer kevin but I'll bet I lost a set
     there
<[Kevin] APPERT> to answer your question: you throw the bagel in the air,
     close your eyes, and as it falls, draw the knife thru the center of
     the bagel.  works every time.  if that isn't like programming, I don't
     know what is! :)
<D.RUFFER> gotta watch that power supply cable closer sound pretty randomly
     succesful kevin
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Dennis, I underestimated the learning curve for Forth.
<D.RUFFER> most people do bob it is easy to write your first program
<[Kevin] APPERT> zen bagel slicing never fails, Dennis.  it's not random
<D.RUFFER> i.e. : hi ." hello" ;
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I am taking a week off from work next week to study
     forrth.
<D.RUFFER> but another matter to do something useful
<[Kevin] APPERT> at lease you didn't say ." hello world"
<D.RUFFER> excellent idea bob
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I can't get going with the interuption of work every
     day.
<D.RUFFER> let us know if there is any way we can help bob
<[Kevin] APPERT> sounds like a great idea, good luck oops.  time to go to
     dinner
<D.RUFFER> ok bye kevin
<[Kevin] APPERT> has left.
<D.RUFFER> I ate while we talked
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I have all the software I need for now, but if I think
     of any thing I'll let you know.
<D.RUFFER> ok, I sure wish you luck
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Thanks Dennis, I appreciate your patience!
<D.RUFFER> start out small, and build upon what you learn
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I'll get rolling soon I hope.
<D.RUFFER> the FEP has gone into the background here anyway
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I think I picked a great time to jump on the forth
     wagon.
<D.RUFFER> yes, why?
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Because I can talk to all the great forth heads.
<D.RUFFER> ah yes, it was really difficult before we started this
     electronic network
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> MOst of the world is still in the dark ages.
<D.RUFFER> I had a hard time in Michigan even understanding what else was
     done in Forth Most of the Forth community is still there also but we
     are certainly shaking the bushes
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I think whhen I get better at it I might be able to
     help you organize everything.
<D.RUFFER> ge, a volunteer....I'd really apreciate it bob
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I would like to get a chance to show you how I think
     the board would be easier for a beginner. I smart program to bring
     them up slowly.
<D.RUFFER> that would be great...I often can't see what to do about it you
     know, the old trees theory
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I think once you get to the top of the mountain you are
     in no position to help those on the bottom.
<J.PURPLE> is here.
<D.RUFFER> that is probably very true bob hi j.p. bob, remember to file
     some of your early thoughts... that way you can refere to them as you
     approach the top
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I want to build a program that starts with a dictionary
     of one word and adds words. as you learn to use them.
<D.RUFFER> maybe, you might want to switch to something a little smaller F-
     PC is an awfully big concept to swollow
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> you can say that again!
<D.RUFFER> have you checked out pygmy yet?
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1>  not yet I can't seem to find a version of forth
<D.RUFFER> it is truely small, and has a lot of PolyForth's concepts in it
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> that is strickly standard and nothing but the standard.
<D.RUFFER> there is NOT one Bob <smile>
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Thats why!
<D.RUFFER> Martin Tracy's ZEN Forth is the closest we've got
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I  might check that out
<J.PURPLE> Scuse me folks, can I ask a question?
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> sure
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sure j.p.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> yes?
<J.PURPLE> I uploaded a file to the A2PRO board (FORTH) for the apple and I
     wanted to know if you all would want a copy over here?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we sure do... I don't get ovet there very often and
     generally we let the authors spread things around
<J.PURPLE> I used the FIG model and assembled a real simple version.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Dennis, I have a question for you.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok, just a sec bob j.p., that would be very useful I
     don't think we have much for the a2 except the uniforth sampler a
     truely public domain one would be nice. use library 4 for systems yes
     bob
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Would you consider letting me play customer service rep
     on line?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> cust rep for what product bob?
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Forth
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh, that one <smile> sure, send me mail about how you
     would like to do it j.p. what format is your file in?
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I would like to find out exactly what people want and
     then locate it
<J.PURPLE> It's free.  The first version had 41 downloads, so I guess
     there's some interest in it.  I assembled it under Merlin Pro.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that would be useful Bob...maybe a Find Me topic of
     cat? excuse me j.p., but what is Merlin Pro
<J.PURPLE> It's a editor-assembler for the Apple
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok, then 41 download is impressive... by format I meant
     file format... is it compressed or what?
<J.PURPLE> I thought so, but I haven't had any mail about it, so I wonder
     sometimes. It's sqeezed using BLU, an apple squeezer.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in that area, the curious will download anything...
<J.PURPLE> Takes the core out, too, I think.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> over here, the ones who will use it download :-)   is
     there anyway to give it too us raw? or in ARC or ZIP format... we've
     had quite some debates about formats over here
<J.PURPLE> Sure, I could just send the binary file up.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great, I can take care of it from there what's it
     called so I can look for it?
<J.PURPLE> I could ARC it (I'm actually using an AMIGA now), but I'm not
     sure that many apple people use ARC.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I would like to create customer account files to record
     who wants what and where it was found  and what level of experience
     they are at. so I can chart everyones progress to see how each person
     gets where they are.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> some do, and we have an unARC written in Forth the
     other Forth boards are using ZIP right now, but I'm sticking with ARC
     that sounds useful Bob, but might take some time .
<J.PURPLE> Sounds like it'd work, then.  I'll stick it all together and
     send it up in the next couple of days.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it's name is....?
<J.PURPLE> OOOh I don't know...8)   PURPLE.FORTH, beleive it or not!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Do you remember how you got starrted Dennis ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great name!
<J.PURPLE> Colorful
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> BTW what is your first name j.p.?
<J.PURPLE> Bob, that project sounds like what GENIE is doing here... a big
     project!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Yes and no
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I remeber bob, but I did it for my job and had a
     personal tutor
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> lucky you
<J.PURPLE> First name is John, but all my friends call me Wakeley (middle
     name)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it was year before I got into the FIG world ok Wakaley,
     I will watch for your file
<J.PURPLE> I haven't joined, the $30 for the model books broke me <yuk,
     yuk>.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I want to make it possible to study everyones path up
     the learning ladder to see who learns faster and why.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> make that years before I got into FIG (say 5 or so)
<J.PURPLE> Everyones???
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is $30 per year for membership wakeley
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Forth Rt members
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but you get a real nice magazine to read every other
     month
<J.PURPLE> I know,  since I got the manuals, finances are much looser
     around here.  I may just spring for it.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> You know; DAY 1: ETC...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> day 1 at Forth, Inc. was sure an education
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> exactly
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> when we started our project 10+ years ago I mean
     progress at learning Forth depends a good deal on how you use it
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I have gone around in circles and spun my wheels alot.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if it is for a job, it goes a lot faster cause you boss
     is breathing down your neck and you do it all day and night learning
     it on your own, like you are doing is neccessarily a lot slower
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I like the Heathkit motto: "we WON'T let you fail."
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm afraid quite a few people HAVE failed at Forth
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I would like to implement that on the Genie Forth RT.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> many look at it for the first time and say yuk and few
     have the perserverience to stick out the learning curve
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I said "What the ?"
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but those who do, are truely unique individuals
<P.ZAWASKY> is here.
<J.PURPLE> I like Brodie's attitude in Thinking Forth-
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and worth much more as software engineers after they
     get over the learning cycle
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> That's because it is a a philosophy and a thinking
     model
<J.PURPLE> It may not be a fast language, but the discipline and
     organizational skills you learn are really valuable.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> that trains the mind
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it IS a philosophy about how to think about programming
     that can be applied to any other language
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> My point is there is TOO MUCH MYSTERY
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> however, once you learn Forth, it is difficult to but
     up with the bull that other languages make you put up with
<J.PURPLE> Someday I hope to have enough time to absorb it all (some).
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is NO mystery Bob...just mysterious programmers
     <smile> the basic Forth word set is really very simple however, unlike
     other languages, the basics are not enough to get the job done
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> That is why I want to reveal the behind the scenes
     action of how people learn forth
<J.PURPLE> I find less mystery than in other languages, really you can
     create your own reality.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I have not stop learning about Forth since I started 12
     years ago
<J.PURPLE> You're not dead yet
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I mean mystery of who learns faster and why.
<J.PURPLE> Oh, you seem to be following more than one thread here?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is a 3rd dimension of thinking that has to go on
     when learning Forth
<HONKYTONK> is here.
<J.PURPLE> pianoman!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi honky
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I mean case st
<HONKYTONK> joua!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> studies
<HONKYTONK> hiya even!
<J.PURPLE> FIGs
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think you will find it depends more on the individual
     than on the process Bob
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> case studies of each members progress
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> some can think in this 3rd dimension easier
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> what makes a good forth learning path in terms of
     software and practice?
<J.PURPLE> Bob, I think you should go over to Roberta Pournelle's board
     (Education).  They're really into learning curves and such.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I only want to know how people get where they are
<HONKYTONK> has left.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Bob, the education RT might have some simular
     experiences say for artists or musicians
<J.PURPLE> I've always felt my curve is more like a square wave...there's
     some sort of threshhold, and then the light...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it take the same side of the brain
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> The "thresshold is when the chain reaction goes
     critical.. or brain reaction
<J.PURPLE> What happened to honkytonk, I was enjoying the music.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> You might be waiting for something that will not
     happen...
<J.PURPLE> Don't say that!!!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I want to MAKE IT HAPPEN
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> said this seemed a little deap, and apologized for
     leaving
<J.PURPLE> deap
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is no deap understanding that suddenly hits you
<J.PURPLE> only arpeggios
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> at least it didn't happen that way with me after
     writting Forth for a while... and looking at others code... I
     discovered that I could understand what they did
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> at some point the associations begin to acelerate
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and found it was not much different that what I was
     doing
<J.PURPLE> I have been happy to find that I can make things happen as far
     as learning goes. That's the threshhold I referred to.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> yes
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Forth is something that is hard to learn from text
     books you just need to do it, again and again soon it becomes natural
<P.ZAWASKY> AND AGAIN
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> Thats been my problem, I keep getting interupted while
     I am trying to do it
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then you can see the simularities in others code
<J.PURPLE> I found it helpful to assemble the basic code, and see it from
     the ground up as an example of style.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is a problem...picking up after an interruption
     means relearning what you were doing
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> It6ts like trying to finish a hot meal and going back
     to find the food cold reheating it only to be interupted again..
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> just pop it in the microwave bob <smile>
<J.PURPLE> That's where some good notes come in handy.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> good point
<J.PURPLE> That's also where FORTH is good, you leave off at a word, not a
     subroutine.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and a good programming style that include good notes
     about what you are doing document while you code, cause you will never
     have time to do it later
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> ok Dennis, how about NOTES from a programmer files for
     the beginners to read
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how so?
<J.PURPLE> That's where FORTH is bad, not much self-documentation.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> exactly! the mystery
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the documentation comes from the programmer it IS NOT
     Forth's fault
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> I said that
<J.PURPLE> I wasn't blaming.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is the programmer's!!!!!!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> ok Dennis I'll start a PROGRAMMERS DIARY
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> notes from a programmer make nice late night reading
     material, but tend to be only appreciated by the author...Very few
     will havethe same experiences but for your own sake, it is an
     indespesible tool!
<J.PURPLE> I think of it as a distillation process.  It can ease the mental
     burden to leave lots of development behind one word and pick up from
     there
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> i.e. DO IT!
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> and upload them DIARY OF A FORTH STUDENT?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sure, it might be interesting
<J.PURPLE> Might be another Anne Frank.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and someone might point out any flaws in the process
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> EXCEDRIN HEADACHE # 25 ; the missing BASE word etc..
<J.PURPLE> A bad one.
<[BOB] R.SCHEMMEL1> MISTAKES OF A PROGRAMMER ? OUTTAKES disconnected.
<J.PURPLE> Bleeps and Bloopers.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oops he got bit too
<J.PURPLE> I guess.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I got disconnected earlier too
<J.PURPLE> a mystery no doubt Do they do that when you don't pay your bill
     fast enough?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who is this P.zawasky that is just listening in the
     background????
<J.PURPLE> ??
<P.ZAWASKY> a silent one
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no, they hit you before you can even get on
<J.PURPLE> I'll remember.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I guess so...what is your claim to fame???
<J.PURPLE> None I can remember
<R.SCHEMMEL1> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bob's back!
<R.SCHEMMEL1> DARN TELEPHONE SALES PEOPLE!
<J.PURPLE> Ah, back from the mysterious beyond.
<P.ZAWASKY> not much 68hc11 stuff (nms) long tin=mr=====time fig member
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> must have been call waiting
<J.PURPLE> Call waiting.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I got yes
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> glad to hear it p.z.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> disconected
<J.PURPLE> check out the delete key p.z.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gee, I got call waiting cancel.....
<P.ZAWASKY> will try
<J.PURPLE> They've got override!
<R.SCHEMMEL1> this time I punched in *70 to suspend it override as you call
     it
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, that is the key code bob!!!
<J.PURPLE> No, the caller has the override.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I put it right in my dial string
<R.SCHEMMEL1> OH NO!
<J.PURPLE> Yup.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I don't think anyone can override it (I hope) except
     maybe the operator in an emergency
<J.PURPLE> I don't have to worry, we still have to give our number to the
     operator for long distance.  They laugh when you ask for call waiting
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you still have pulse dial too???
<J.PURPLE> Just joking...another mystery!
<R.SCHEMMEL1> So what shall I call it? DIARY OF Mr. FORTH ?
<J.PURPLE> No. They say in 2 years (every year, 2 more years).
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> like 2 months j.p.?
<J.PURPLE> Dr. LISP & Mr. FORTH.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Diary of a Forthaholic
<R.SCHEMMEL1> HA! HA!
<J.PURPLE> As I said, a distillation process.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> FORTHAHOLICS ANONYMOUS
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are we denegrating to insanity now?
<R.SCHEMMEL1> no
<J.PURPLE> I'll sign up with ALAFORTH, since I'm not a member.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> funny, then why are you learnign Forth <smile>
<R.SCHEMMEL1> So do you have a preference for a name for the Diary Dennis?
<J.PURPLE> 8)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not that I can think of (or the one I mentioned :-)
<P.ZAWASKY> got to go learn more about F-PC..bye
<R.SCHEMMEL1> Ok but I don't know any Lisp
<J.PURPLE> bye pz
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bye pz
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no bob the Forthaholic one
<P.ZAWASKY> has left.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anything else to talk about tonight?
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I think that hi
<J.PURPLE> Another trial for a learning curve analysis!
<R.SCHEMMEL1> How is everything on the RT?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok I guess
<R.SCHEMMEL1> There doesn't seem to be alot of new messages.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> lot's of new things coming in the future
<J.PURPLE> Doesn't sound too enthusiastic.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there never is a lot of activity here but enough to
     keep us alive
<R.SCHEMMEL1> That will change
<J.PURPLE> Everybody's thinking
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do we give that impression jp?
<J.PURPLE> not really
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think the lack of messages shows we are all busy
<J.PURPLE> My interest waxing in FORTH again, especially since talking with
     youse.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but the activity is getting better we didn't turn you
     off to Forth did we
<J.PURPLE> No, waxing, not waning.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or excuse me, waxing is better huh glad to hear it
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I know there is a way to to custom tailor the RT
<J.PURPLE> Sure, like waxing poetic and stuff.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we are all invloved very deaply in it
<J.PURPLE> deap
<R.SCHEMMEL1> what happened to "deep"?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> deeply (ok I can't speel :-)
<J.PURPLE> and invloved (Freudian)?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the fingers are faster than the mind, and I hate
     backspace
<R.SCHEMMEL1> Dennis do you have CHAT MODE ON THE RT? sysop that is
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anybody can use the NOTIFY command
<J.PURPLE> use SEN ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> send only works in the RTC
<J.PURPLE> oh
<R.SCHEMMEL1> D
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but notify is GEnie wide, unless they are in a XMODEM
     or in the BB or other places of interest :-(
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I've got it!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then you have Aladdin that send automatic notify replys
<R.SCHEMMEL1> Start a Catagory called "WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR WHEN I LOGGED
     IN"
<J.PURPLE> Is this the regular night for the RTC?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> start with a topic Bob, and we can see if it take soff
<R.SCHEMMEL1> OK
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, Thursday at 9:30 Eastern
<J.PURPLE> Mystery.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and Sundays at 8:30 Esatern Sundays are usually
     tutorials, but sometimes they are also free format
<J.PURPLE> I'll be back (copywrite Scharzenegger).
<R.SCHEMMEL1> Dennis, I know this might
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> glad to hear it
<R.SCHEMMEL1> seem like another sidetrack but if I wait alittle before
     tackling the telecom program maybe I will have a better idea of what
     it should include.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no problem bob...it just means that I might try to do
     something also (on telecom side)
<J.PURPLE> Telecom is a nightmare.  Doing 3 things at once.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is a multitasking dream!
<R.SCHEMMEL1> The program Dennis and I have in mind is very multitasking
<J.PURPLE> I have a good time watching the AMI load from disk and write out
     the line at the same time.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> show off
<J.PURPLE> Are you using 386's or what.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> this should be a real excersise in multitasking as we
     analyse the incoming data for capture paterns
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I have an XT
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I have a 386, but can do the same on apples Forth's
     multitasker is very efficient
<J.PURPLE> I didn't think it was possible with the hardware.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> speed in a telecom program only determines the size of
     the data buffer
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I want to write a program that teaches you as it does
     everything else bye (by) monitoring
<J.PURPLE> Sweet bye and bye. oh, only by.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> what comes in on your calls and on the boards Dennis, I
     really enjoyed the Roedy conference!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good, I'm sorry I missed it errr, no... I did get to
     catch a little of it...I seem to remember
<R.SCHEMMEL1> It was helpful, especially since it was the occasion for him
     uploading BBLINTERNALS AND BBLFAST
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, those should help
<R.SCHEMMEL1> both very illuminating My homework data stack gets deeper
     every day
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> a week off sound like just the ticket for you
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I am looking at eight books
<J.PURPLE> That's bad for a LIFO stack.
<R.SCHEMMEL1> yes the   week will help ]"10 DAYS IN AUGUST"
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, I've got to run folks
<R.SCHEMMEL1> bye Dennis!
<J.PURPLE> me too, a work day tomorrow.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> looking forward to the purple forth, and for the notes
     bob
<J.PURPLE> see ya
<R.SCHEMMEL1> bye John!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> see ya all later thanks for coming
<R.SCHEMMEL1> I'm out your welcome
=== End of Steno notes. ===