Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 08/02/90   Time: 22:27EDT

The question of the night:"BASIS12 is posted in the library. The mission of
X3/J14 nears end. Is the result a viable standard ?' This was the only	REAL
Forth related discussion, but covered several areas of concern.

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Doug] D.PHILIPS3]
[[Brian] B.SUTTON1]
[[Windows-JAX] JAX]
[[Larry] LDAWSON]

Minutes:
<JAX> is here.
<JAX> has the basis been posted to USENET yet?
<[Gary] GARY-S> not by me
<JAX> ok, will dload and post.
<JAX> when did it arrive? by whose hand?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Dennis posted it (and edited for posting)
<[Gary] GARY-S> any thoughts on the query
<JAX> Plenty.
<JAX> Will have more thoughts after august meeting.
<[Gary] GARY-S> That is austensibly the wind-down
<JAX> (edited it in what manner?
<[Gary] GARY-S> to get rid of the printer codes that ASCII doesn't comprehend
<JAX> aha.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Nada to do with content
<JAX> when did Den post?
<JAX> (in some cases the printer codes *are* content ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> last night, or night before
<JAX> (anyway, we agreed at Melbourne to post it in its old, ugly WORD format)
<JAX> (i suppose they will be mailing me a disk anyway, since we were supposed 
to post to USENET)
<JAX> how many K
<[Gary] GARY-S> When you copy, you will see all intent and remarks are in place
<JAX> [AOh, I am sure, I am not implying that anyone is changing anything!
<[Gary] GARY-S> any thoughts on tonights question ?
<B.SUTTON1> I think I missed the question; I'm new here.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Hi Gary -- what's going on tonight?
<[Gary] GARY-S> It's just us for the moment - if you want to see other commands 
type /hel
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> I've read through the manual, & probably just need to do 
things once or twice to imbed them into my memory cells.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I also put a handy 3x5 help card  in the library called RTC/QK.
REF you might want to capture later
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Great, that'll be a help  I'm sure.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The question is 'do you think the ANS product is a viable 
standard?'
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> I know nothing about it at the moment.
<D.PHILIPS3> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is the standard a usable one Doug ?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Cheat answer:  There is no standard yet, so it can't be 
usable!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> I haven't seen BASIS12 yet, so I don't know what has 
changed.  I suspect
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> that usability is a matter of degree, rather than a binary 
yes/no.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Is there a particular major new point in the  new standard?
<[Gary] GARY-S> This is hardly an objective question - my straw polls are 
supposed to be heavily typed toward subjective
<[Gary] GARY-S> Have you been following it at all, Brian ?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Not a bit, unfortunately -- I've just signed up with GEnie 
this past week, and haven't yet caught up on my FORTH DIMENSIONS readin
g; sorry.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Brian, do you mean all 12 years worth?
<[Gary] GARY-S> As Doug pointed out, it is NOT a staqndard yet - but since this 
is BASIS12 of the X3/J14 ANS Technical Committee the shape is largely
there
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> (or is it 13?)
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Well, the past 3 years at least, Doug.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Waht kernel(S) are you familiar with ?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Did you start current and work back, or are you working 
towards current ?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> I've been involved in FORTH about 10 years now; currently 
using F83 on a cp/m machine; also have used FIG on a TI
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> What kinds of things do you do with it?
<[Gary] GARY-S> The ANS will be more like F83 than FIG, but there are some 
dramatic changes
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Mostly business stuff -- accounting, WP, etc.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Dramatic changes?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Sounds like, ah, ah, r..., re... rea... real... work!
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> After about 5 years of refinement, It's starting to look 
halfway professional!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Do you use your stuff in an actual business environment ? The 
accounting stuff sounds interesting - is it propriatary, or can you post
 it ?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> I use it to run my Chiropractic office; it uses 
approximately 20 overlays...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have to confess geographic ignorance - where is Odessa FL ?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Next to Tampa.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Isn't that part of the Ozarks?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Just about
<[Gary] GARY-S> That isn't funny - you know I have a trip into the Ozarks 
tomorrow !!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Tee Hee Hee
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> hope you make it back
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> He's actually out huntin' 'Bagos from what I hear!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Just what you tie them to, I'm not sure.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I'm having difficulty reading what you are inferring Brian. The 
Ozarks are boondocks, but not the Bermuda Triangle
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Well, never having been to those particular boondocks, but 
knowing a few people who have, it does seem sort of spooky.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> So what sort of work are you people doing with FORTH?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Back to X3/J14 .. there is now both operators for Symetrical 
AND floored division
<[Gary] GARY-S> There is now a error trap mechanism called catch/throw
<[Gary] GARY-S> NOT is not NOT - it is INVERT
<[Gary] GARY-S> what else , Doug  ?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> sounds like the basics are expanding.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Hmmm.
<[Gary] GARY-S> There was an effort to incorporate 1's compliment - thank 
goodness that was seen as foolish
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> UM/MOD SM/MOD  -- / controversy
<[Gary] GARY-S> yeah - no simple / divide operator - but I noted that
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Actually, the basics AREN'T expanding, its just that the TC
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> has to deal with various factions of "existing practice" 
that are
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> incompatable.  Comprise, well, it is a political, not 
technical process.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> The TC hasn't, as far as anyone has said so far, broken 
anything.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ironically Laxen and Perry's F-83 could not be included in the 
usage count
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> They've pointed out where there already exists portability 
difficulties.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> you mean that instead of separate operators we need to 
decide on the best and use that only?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Just the opposite.
<[Gary] GARY-S> NOT if you want your code to be portable
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> There is no way to decide on the "best".  That is a 
subjective interpretative
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> (gack) judgement call.   The best the TC can do,
<[Gary] GARY-S> You must prelude to your operators
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> and I think that they are doing OK, is to
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> identify areas of conflict and provide alternative 
solutions.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> That is why / , is "broken".  Actually it was already, but 
no one
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> either realized it, or would admit it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> What is 'actually' being created is a rubber stamp, for vendors 
who must market to government jobs that demand adherence to a IEEE or
ANS standard (don't tell anyone where you heard that)
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> but the point of standardization is to use the lowest 
common denominator that most people would start with, on average, no?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Personally I don't think any "standard" can be "perfect".  
"Good" is a  lot to
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> ask, but may be attainable.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Try defining "lowest common denominator" and "most people" 
and ...
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> so on.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I would agree with your premise - I don't think that will be 
the result, though, Brian
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> What sort of politics do you see being involved?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Gary, I totally disagree with that.  It is an illusion.
<[Gary] GARY-S> what is it you disagree with
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Gary, I disagree that Brians point is feasible.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> I think that if you examine it closely enough you'll find 
that it is
<[Gary] GARY-S> ms-windows or X-windows
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> unsupportable.  It is based on the flawed idea that there 
is a common
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> demoninator that "average" people start with.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> You would think after all the TC has been through the past 
3 years
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Amiga Windows and ms-windows. In and out of windows all the 
time.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> that that would be obvious by now.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ms (yech!)
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Too bad AJAX isn't a window cleaner!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> woof!
<[Gary] GARY-S> did you cature and extract the BASIS JAXON ?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Brian, do you play with Forth "on the side"?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Yes!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Brian, do you consider the Business stuff "on the side"?  
What do you
<[Gary] GARY-S> If your accounting program can be shared I hope you will 
consider uploading it, Brian (uploads are free time)
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> use Forth for "for fun?"
<[Gary] GARY-S> on the door, jax - since we are nearing the end of the X3/J14 
process is the result going to be a viable standard ?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Viable from a computer science point of view, from a Forth 
point of view, from an economic point of view or from a political point
 of view?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Yea Jax!
<[Gary] GARY-S> You and Doug - always wanting to philosophy ! shheeeesh ! Just 
answer it from a market or user perspective
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Gary, the program probably wouldn't run on anything but a 
Xerox at the moment, since I use some z80  code specific for that machin
e.
<[Gary] GARY-S> as in 820 ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> is your XEROX AN 820 ? -1 ? -2 ?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Brian, Just jump in.  What Forth stuff do you do for "fun"? 
 Is the accouting stuff "fun"?
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> a 16/8, actually an improvement of the 820-II; Doug, it's 
all fun!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Yeah, Jax, just what ARE you trying to pull.  Is Wavrik 
full of it or not?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Gary ... the situation as I see it is as follows: ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Yes there will be a codeable, implementable standard ...
<[Larry] LDAWSON> is here.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> 1) Will ANS accept it? Will enough vendors hang in there to 
give it stature? Will the user community accept it? WIll the compromis
es we have to make turn enough people off that the whole process will render 
itself irrelevant? Will we finish up before the members of the committee
go broke attending meetings?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> The thing, Doug, about Wavrik and Bradley's postings on the 
'net ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> is that they are *both* right ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> This is something Moore has tried to say all along ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ray Duncan has already publicly stated if it isn't fairly 
upward compatible from F-83, LMI will NOT implement
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> thatForth ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> is an APPROACH more than a SPECIFICATION ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> we freeze it in a Standard for economic reasons ...
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Which is why I think ANY Forth Standard will be flawed.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> but there is always going to be that inherent contradiction 
...
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Not necessarily useless, but hardly perfect.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> that Forth is a one-time one-of-a-kind type thingy.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> The real question is, what, given ANY ANS Forth standard, 
will be the impact
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> on the programmers "in the trenchs"?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> It's the price you pay for excess creativity in ANY field ..
. lack of "respectability"
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> The impact on the guy in the trenches will be:
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> MORE INCOME if we make this fly.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Are we trying to paint a chameleon with one stroke of a large 
brush ?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> I guarantee it.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> (Not just directed at JAX, everyone jump in!)
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> I type fastest, though!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX>  :-)
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> I have often wondered WHY ANS was approached to support a  
Forth Standard.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Stature.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Is that what you are suggesting Gary, that we would be 
better off with no ANS sstandard?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> They started a "Forth-87" committee ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> to grant authenticity to the rubber stamp !
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> could someone refresh my memory on ANS?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> which deferred to ANSI when Liz Rather and others made 
progress on the ANSI front
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> (A)merican (N)ational (S)tandards (I)nstitute.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> ( i think!)
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> thanks.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Its really too bad ANSI doesn't require a consensus BEFORE 
it'll let you start the process!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> (I know, I know).
<[Gary] GARY-S> There was an effort to gain IEEE standardization when ANS 
agreed - that ended the IEEE effort
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Well, in effect, they do.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Doug, the work of X3/J14 is constantly under the eye of X3.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> They are *not* entirely happy with us!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> We need MORE COMMUNITY SUPPORT!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> MORE ENTHUSIASM!
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Ok, to rephrase the question on the door, everyone answer.  
If BASIS12 were to be made the standard, would you use it?  What other
 effect would it have on you, personally?
<[Larry] LDAWSON> IEEE and similar organizations are member orgs of ANSI, they 
use ANSI to formalize the development and PUBLICATION of standards.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> ... & more vendors, damn them! :-)
<[Gary] GARY-S> J11 enjoyed a similar fate - and people are still using K & R
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> oh, poo gary ...
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> the penmanship is on the room divider in that case ... ANS 
C wins.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> The world won't end if you use K&R.  Pooh on JAX!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Everyone is going ANS C, it just takes time.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> so what's the problem with FORTH-83?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Doug, I could care less one way or the other! I just mean, 
it's obvious that ANS C has been accepted by the market.
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Brian, 83-STANDARD demands 16 bits and a very limited 
conception of the execution engine, among other problems!
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> 83-STANDARD was great, but it is *way* behind the state of 
the art.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Ok, so noone will answer that question.  How about this:
<[Larry] LDAWSON> ANY standard is going to be behind the state of the art, it 
has to be!
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> I was going to say that!
<[Gary] GARY-S> 64K limit in a megabyte world IS a problem, no doubt
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> Well, there are limits. Yo *cant* accept a 64 k limit these 
days ... Gary said it.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> What is the ratio of C to Forth programmers that have 
implemented a "compiler" for their language?  Whater or worse than 
F-83 for machine dependancies?)
<[Gary] GARY-S> The BIG free Forth (l&P) was not included in the mix, so it has 
zilch effect
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Not necessarily "direct" effects, Gary.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> My experience has been worse.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Uniforth could not be counted, either
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> I was thinking more of a background type thing.  Many C 
programmers haven't
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> even seen the insides of a C compiler, let alone have built 
one from scratch.
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> That difference in experience base, does it affect the 
standards process?  Good bad or not at all?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Intersting - but what's the point ?
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> (Its at the end of my pencil, but that's not important
 right now)
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> Gary did you mean to say that the ANS proposals would make  
the programming environment  a foreign language to f83 users?
<[Windows-JAX] JAX> well, i have work to do that requires i disconnect. Good 
night Gary, and thank you for a stimulating discussion.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I think the fact that many Forth programmers have created at 
least one kernel, or certainly hacked someone elses only increases the le
velk and intensity of arguments - Heck, we ALL know what 'REALLY' works :-) 
right ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> g'nite guys
<[Gary] GARY-S> get your knee jerks in quick
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Gary, the point is what the impact of the standard should 
be.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> where do we find transcripts?
<[Gary] GARY-S> library 1
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Forth cannot be killed by the ANS standard, no matter how 
bad.  Vive la Forth!
<[Larry] LDAWSON> The intent of any standard is to assure compatibility/
portability among standards users. Period.
<[Brian] B.SUTTON1> amen
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> Yeah Larry!
<[Gary] GARY-S> well said
=== End of Steno notes. ===