Minutes of the July 28,1988 FIGGY BAR Date: 07/28/88 Time: 22:35EDT Attendees: [[Gary] GARY-S] [[Jax is Back] VESTA] [[Rock] R.FRANZEN] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[John] J.SCHOFFXX] Items discussed: and baby makes three, image processing, DEC 11-73 running an original pre-fig Forth, Asyst, Standards (do you have your basis ?) Minutes: is here. <[Jax] VESTA> hello? <[Jax] VESTA> foobar! <[Gary] GARY-S> hey jax <[Jax] VESTA> whats up gars <[Gary] GARY-S> sorry - I was across the old room <[Jax] VESTA> Salright ... could have been the NEW room ... :-) <[Jax] VESTA> haven't seen you on the well lately! <[Gary] GARY-S> we is it - any ideas you want to explore ? <[Jax] VESTA> already explored one TO THE MAX ... <[Jax] VESTA> baby born tuesday morning ... daughter Jelena Caroline Woehr <[Jax] VESTA> ...!!! <[Gary] GARY-S> all RIGHT ! <[Jax] VESTA> All those walks into the sunset of the Rockies worked! <[Jax] VESTA> Born at home. <[Gary] GARY-S> how's the mother and ? is here. <[Jax] VESTA> Resting, ok. <[Jax] VESTA> . <[Jax] VESTA> HI len. Hi <[Gary] GARY-S> hey len <[Gary] GARY-S> jax - bout the well... <[Jax] VESTA> yes? <[Gary] GARY-S> I have been hitting it 18 hours per day (no exagerations... <[Jax] VESTA> excuses excuses ... <[Gary] GARY-S> till yesterday, so I haven't done anything including the well. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Why so busy? <[Gary] GARY-S> ok ? <[Jax] VESTA> OK <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Gary] GARY-S> had three customers humping it - and field engineers are dependent on customer activities.. <[Gary] GARY-S> end of story <[Gary] GARY-S> did everyone hear - Mitch Bradley will be a guest in August ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax, the Figgy last Sunday was very active! Yes <[Jax] VESTA> right <[Jax] VESTA> That beginner thing is right on. <[Gary] GARY-S> If your serious - maybe my not showing was the key. <[Jax] VESTA> That's the sort of stuff I get asked for at work all the time. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> DNo, I think it's just a matter of... <[Jax] VESTA> Grown men ... forced to learn FORTH ... It's pathetic to watch them cry ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> gaining momentu. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I also think that we shouldn't... <[Gary] GARY-S> about damn time I'd say !!! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> emphasize the "novice" idea, but rather "intermediate". <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Jax] VESTA> Right ... <[Jax] VESTA> Noone wants to be a "novice" <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Dave Weinstein has taken off! <[Jax] VESTA> <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Jax] VESTA> . <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He's left a lot of notes. That's very good! <[Gary] GARY-S> I'll change file 2 to read something besides novice... <[Gary] GARY-S> is intermediate the operative word ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wait a moment & see the one-time I am putting up tonigt. I will... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> upload it in a minute or so. is here. <[Jax] VESTA> rich, is it? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Jax] VESTA> ( R>FRANZEN <[Jax] VESTA> = rich? Rhi <[Jax] VESTA> what's new since (Sunday?) <[Gary] GARY-S> that's to you rich - what's new <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> INTERMEDIATE FORTH PROGRAMMERS CONFERENCE <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> SUNDAY, JULY 24, 8:30PM EDT <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> We are changing the focus of out Sunday conferences from "novice" <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to "intermediate". Recent attendees have hardly been rank <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> beginners. Some of them are starting to think for themselves, and <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> are even putting up messages that disagree with ME! Come and <[Jax] VESTA> How is Florida this month .. Rock. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> hot & muggy. FL summer! <[Jax] VESTA> Summer, hell! It's that way in the Panhandle at Thanxgiving! <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> I'm new to this, so Im kinda slow. <[Jax] VESTA> When you are old ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> watch me put them in their ll beginners once. <[Jax] VESTA> you'll be slower. <[Gary] GARY-S> no prob - what do you do with Forth ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> do image processing programming (professionally) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wow! <[Gary] GARY-S> can you say who for ? <[Jax] VESTA> what chips? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> DBA Systems, DEC 11-73, stand-alone ancient FORTH <[Jax] VESTA> WOW! <[Jax] VESTA> A Moore project, maybe? <[Jax] VESTA> or poly? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> no, George Dalke started it. Ancester of PolyFORTH <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> SPIT = EMIT <[Jax] VESTA> ... hee hee! <[Gary] GARY-S> This is too neat ! are you using the Kitts peak word set ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> No, just what was in the original, plus years of isolation. <[Jax] VESTA> Ha ... I get a bunch of flak at work for using "funny" words... SPIT=EMIT ...ha! <[Gary] GARY-S> I bet that would be an interesting kernel for this RT to look at... <[Jax] VESTA> But proprietary, no doubt. <[Gary] GARY-S> can you upload it ? or do you even have comm on the DEC ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> As far as I know, kernal is PD <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> There is no modem on DEC. It is fairly effecient, & I love "pure" FORTH... <[Gary] GARY-S> I'm serious - can you upload it ? <[Jax] VESTA> metoometoometoo STANDALONE! RAH! <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> o.s, language, application, altogether. No files, only directories. <[Gary] GARY-S> We could use it for historical perspective <[Jax] VESTA> We could use it for old DEC's ... BTW, describe the hardware a bit, please! <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> It's not really the original. Many modernizing patches. is here. Evening, all. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> 11-73 16 bit cpu, 8k cache, 500 MBlock disk, 1/2" tape. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Hi , J> Hi, Rock <[Gary] GARY-S> Who is j.schofxx c'est moi... John Schoffstall... <[Jax] VESTA> multi user, Rock Philly... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Use /NAM Jim or whatever. John that is <[Gary] GARY-S> They can't speak french in philly <[Jax] VESTA> Forth Board, J.S. SometiSure.. <[Jax] VESTA> ...??? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> yes, but effectively disabled <[Jax] VESTA> why, Rock? <[Jax] VESTA> That's a fairly common name in Philly ... <[Jax] VESTA> Schoffstall. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Really? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> I didnt do it. Philosophy was when messing with 70 Mbyte images, <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Most relatives are lost or dead. <[Gary] GARY-S> Do you use Bob Dean's Drexel Hill BBS John ? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Anyway... any Asyst programmers here? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> don't want two or more people making disk access inefficient. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Gary: no. Have heard of it. <[Jax] VESTA> HOLY MOLEY 70 mb images of WHAT?? may we ask. <[Jax] VESTA> DId you go to school in Philly? Where? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> LandSat, Medical, anything. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> College in N.C., Med school at Chapel Hill, NC, residency at MCP <[Gary] GARY-S> 623-4040 if you want to check it out <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Rock, What does philosophy have to do with it? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> On staff of MCP now, dstarting med research career... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> -d <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Or, rather, d - <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I was a pathologist. <[Gary] GARY-S> Rock - how about it ? any chance you can upload the kernel ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> That was George Dalke's reason. I never re-enabled because need not there. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Len: what do you do now? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Retired. I play around with computers, especially Forth. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Uploading would be difficult, & cause political problems at work <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I have been trying to use Asyst for real-time data acquistion... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...using a Tecmar Lab Master A/D board. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Both were sorta inherited, in the lab when I arrived. <[Gary] GARY-S> Rock : ask around anyway - tell them it was requested by the nicest little old lady in a blue chevy ... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I've never actually visited the Forth RT before... <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> John, what's Asyst <[Gary] GARY-S> or maybe a nefarous sysop on the GEnie BBS <[Jax] VESTA> Math package in Forth. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...but got my copy of the Genie mag today, was lazily paging thourgh <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...after dinner, and noticed that the FIG was on at 9:30. Holy smokes it's... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> 9:50, wonder if they're still there? So, here I am. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Jax: right. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Come often! <[Gary] GARY-S> glad you are, too... <[Gary] GARY-S> first time ? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Lots of words for data manipulation... <[Jax] VESTA> Go ahead ... what is question ( dimly familiar) <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> My first time too. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...data acquisition, and graphing. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Len: thanks, I will. <[Gary] GARY-S> we don't structure theses FIGGY BARs - but you've got that figured out, RIGHT ? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Uh... right. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I'm not familiar with the history/politics of Forth... <[Gary] GARY-S> any thoughts on the Standards effort ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Could we just call them 'Newtons? <[Gary] GARY-S> John/Rock <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...and the topic of tonight's discussion posted on the door makes NO... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...sense to me, I'm afraid. <[Jax] VESTA> That's cause Gary posted it. <[Gary] GARY-S> That's not a topic - it's a throw out question <[Jax] VESTA> Throw it out. <[Gary] GARY-S> I seldom get an answer to those <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> <== rofl <[Jax] VESTA> Why is there air? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> small, standardized core good. Big committee project = cobol, ADA <[Gary] GARY-S> this is NOT turning into a camel so far <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Forth is chaotic and needs improved standard... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Len: why? <[Jax] VESTA> The standard is chaotic, and needs more Forth. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> BUT Standards are a straightjacket. The dilemma will ne\ver be resolved. <[Gary] GARY-S> Did anyone else get a copy of the current basis - interesting <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I plan to. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> FORTH is flexible, and will always remain that way. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> In human languages, often the more standardization... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Flexible = chaos. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...the less well they fare, and vice versa. French vs. English, for instance. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> v. good pun. <[Gary] GARY-S> true Rock, but a core set is necessary and a test of the projected word set absolutely necessary <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> chaos = noise. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> noise = everything. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Rock: FORTH may be flexible because it has no powerful defenders/friends <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Forth programmers are the noisiest bunch around! <[Gary] GARY-S> Don't confuse standard with stagnate <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Once a DEC takes an interest in it, on go the straightjackets. <[Gary] GARY-S> spoken by a true learner of the law acording to Maynard, Mass <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I dthink we desperately ned standards in floating point & a few other places. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Gary, standard IS necessary. It must only concern small core. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Perhaps "standardized" extensions. <[Jax] VESTA> brb <[Jax] VESTA> has left. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Does anyone know how C is doing in this regard? <[Gary] GARY-S> why can you not upload jack ? <[Gary] GARY-S> do you know why he can't, len ? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> C/Unix very popular in government/large OEM arena. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Byy its very nature, C is already rigidly standardized... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in areas where Forth is completely flexible. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> brb= "be right back" <[Gary] GARY-S> back to standards - the current basis indicates a clear understanding of the concerns of the Forth... <[Gary] GARY-S> community of applying the word 'Standard' too broadly... <[Gary] GARY-S> looks VERY good and it's still in development <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Gary, are you on committee? <[Gary] GARY-S> It will not be a minimum word set, either <[Gary] GARY-S> No - but as Standards sysop on GEnie it would be pretty dumb for me NOT to read... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Gary: if you is here. <[Gary] GARY-S> the progress reports - right ? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> 'll forgive an elementary question: <[Gary] GARY-S> Please - do ask <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> What is the point of standardization? Portability? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Saleability. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To me portability... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Allowing one programmer to work more easily with different products? <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Acceptance <[Gary] GARY-S> compatibility, transportability, marketability <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Convincing the software buying world we don't have our heads up our ***es <[Gary] GARY-S> that help <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To me all of those things resolve down to one thing... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Rock: does FORTH *need* acceptance? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I should be able to take soneone's code and... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> be able to convert it to my machine... <[Gary] GARY-S> yes !! among engineers who want a standard to rely on <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Moore says it doesn't need acceptance, he would be happier if LESS people knew about it ... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> . <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> accurately and with a minimum of trouble. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> to convince management to do major project in FORTH, yes. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Without that, we don't have acceptance, marketablitiy or anything else. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have said it! <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I see. <[Gary] GARY-S> You BET ! Big time problems in some sectors even getting management to consider Forth unless they can.... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> But you know, even C isn't that portable. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> RIGHT. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Especially with graphics oriented machines. <[Gary] GARY-S> find another programmer who can use this 'VERSION' ! <[Jax is Back] VESTA> But they have better salesman. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Which looks to be about all the PC's, pretty soon. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> <== occasionally forgets that there are computers that AREN'T PCs <[Gary] GARY-S> Bell gave quadzillions of free copies to all the Computer Sci depts in the world <[Jax is Back] VESTA> 40,000 actually. <[Gary] GARY-S> poetic license <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Wow. When? 60's, 70's? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> <== missed out on his copy. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> 70's ... UNIX <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Now Uncle Sam is going to let ***** $2 BILLION ****** in contracts for Unix this year ... tracking medicar payments. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! <[Gary] GARY-S> snuffed a lot of PASCAL self-righteousness, but introduced 'C'ing problems <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Jax: I concur. IBM got that contract? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> IBM??? They'd MURDER Kernighan if they could find him. About 1000 different companies are bidding. <[Gary] GARY-S> Just wait till they track a submarine with a big blue sonar - sheesh <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson proved that IBM was shtupping the customer ... that you really *don't* need a BRAND NEW OPERATING SYS TEM every time you upgrade. <[Gary] GARY-S> did i go deaf - or did everyone quit at once ? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> I think they are breathing heavy about the 2 bill. <[Gary] GARY-S> Jack - how come you can't u/l ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax I don't understand. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Gary: one of those empty regions in the middle of chaos. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Has to do with EOL protocol. My comm program chokes. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> Is could hear the crickets, though. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Huh, Len? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> When a new machine is built... <[Gary] GARY-S> yet you can Xmodem email ? wierd <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> shouldn't the OS be adapted to handle the new features? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Xmodem and Ascii upload are two different things. <[Gary] GARY-S> thank you for that fine point <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Yes, len, the architecture changes, but UNIX marches on, relatively coherently. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> ever try interfacing pure FORTH with pure UNIX. slow.... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Why is that? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Rock: why? <[Gary] GARY-S> do ask Rock - I'd love to see that kernel in our library <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> The C programmer blames "serial i/o" on UNIX end. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> UNIX is kinda like FORTH in that it is a "virtual machine" ... but one that needs about 2meg and a 40M hard, instead of 64 k and one floppy like FOrth. <[Gary] GARY-S> UNIX is only virtual if you enjoy linking your life away <[Jax is Back] VESTA> UNIX covers about everything you could *want* from a multi-user system ... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> then they just map it to the given hardware. Not a new concept each time, you see. <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> We put our FORTH in ROM on the compact DFR-8000. No disk, only 16-bit dma to <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> outside world. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Asyst is the only FORTH I know... are there versions without all... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...variables being global? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> YOu use BSD and the C shell, you aren't drowning first time you fall into the Korn shell, or System V <[Gary] GARY-S> given a choice between UNIX and MS-DOS, UNIX is MUCH preferred <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Yes, John. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> But classically, variables ARE global, that's a) what vocabs are for, and <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> That's one my gripes about Asyst. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> b) where do you think langs like PASCAL that support locals keep them? On teh STACK of course. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Learn to use the STACK properly, you don't need locals. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Ahh.... dawns the light... <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> There are neat concepts for local variables, easy to implement. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Somebody at Rochester... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Right ... JForth on the Amiga has locals. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> presented a system of... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I do, sorta, but never thought about it that way... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> nnaming points n the stack as a sort of local vriable. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> . <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Hm. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It was recently uploaded here. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Sounds almost like the way you treat assembly on a 8087 <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I'll look for it. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> The key to Forth programming is being able to dcreate an accurate stack diagram : <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> 2 ,CODE !LINE 512 , 512 , ( length width) ... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> : THIS-WORD ( addr n1 --- addr++ n2) FOO BLETCH ; <[Gary] GARY-S> We got a good review in Tracy's Forth column in DDJ this time - take a bow Jax - two of the files (3 ?) were yours <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think it was Adin Tevet, from Israel. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> HUH?? <[Jax is Back] VESTA> What issue? <[Gary] GARY-S> Mrtin Tracy, DDJ August - Forth column <[Gary] GARY-S> still with me ? <[Gary] GARY-S> he gave GEnie library hi marks <[Gary] GARY-S> a couple of the files he loved are courtesy of JAX <[Jax is Back] VESTA> hmm... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Didn't get August issue ... <[Gary] GARY-S> so thanks Mr. WELL fair-witness <[Jax is Back] VESTA> I feel nervous ... <[Jax is Back] VESTA> Chess player ... you write an endgame study, they publish, it gets "cooked" ... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> I gotta look at those. <[Gary] GARY-S> He liked your INMOS TRABSPUTER cross -assembler and ARIEL I know <[Gary] GARY-S> Any last shots folks ? <[Gary] GARY-S> quittin' time <[Rock] R.FRANZEN> concerning what? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I gotta go. It's after 7:30 here/exit <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Gang, thanks for the welcome. I'm not in your league... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has left. <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> ...but it's been educational. See ya again. <[Jax is Back] VESTA> bye bye ,,, gary, chekc your mail... later gang ... <[Gary] GARY-S> yes you are, Johnn <[Jax is Back] VESTA> visit the FORTH conf on the WELL <[Jax is Back] VESTA> (415) 332-6106 7-e-1 <[Gary] GARY-S> John ! see leonard on Sunday - ok ? <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Sure. Will do. <[Gary] GARY-S> great - nite all <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> Bye... <[John] J.SCHOFFXX> has left. === End of Steno notes. ===