Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.
                  
Date: 07/21/88   Time: 21:38EDT
Attendees:
[[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN]
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Jax Rampant] VESTA]
W.FEDERICI                   
[[Alan F] ATFURMAN]
[[len] NMORGENSTERN]
           
Items discussed: Interservice confusion, Wellens are more Forthy thanks to ECFB
                 (again)(still), pulling Forth off internet, front-ending  
                 GEnie's f77 with Forth
          
Minutes:
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hello
<VESTA> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> question came up at our chapter meeting ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey Jax...got yer letter
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> yes?
<[Gary] GARY-S> WHY Multi-user Forth
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Why?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> VVHY NOTT?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Essactly
<[Gary] GARY-S> been a lot of talk about it lately and no-one has demonstrated 
any advantages
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh..I just got Mitch Bradley's PD F83
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Shared environement
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Will tell advantage ...!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> SO That you can manipulate the same sets of files without 
running back and forth ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> bad pun
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> with disks, or tooling with some smarmy network.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I wish about DAILY that we had a multiuser FORTH.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> smarmy?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> smarmy.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> On multi programmer projects, you need a multiuser system.
 I prefer FORTH.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I figured out how to make his multitasking FORTH mutiluser.
..just have na bothered....because it's a multi-user OS anyeay
<[Gary] GARY-S> I passed around vesta info at the chapter meeting
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Good, I have a vesta'ed interest in that sort of thing.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I own (or am buying) a VESPA, is that close enough? :-)
=== End of Steno notes. ===
           
Date: 07/21/88   Time: 22:34EDT
         
Minutes:
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Good, now we have a minyan.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hell...bring Jen back...she's built better
<[Gary] GARY-S> Arkansas Spark and Fizzle !!! Power Glitch killed me.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Your fault..you live there
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> DOn't drink it if you don't like it.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I was asking - are you still critical of this RT 
(EDITED COMMENT)
<W.FEDERICI> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I love that logic...that's why no one else scam's off what 
I jdrink
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> You shouldn't put things like that in the record, besides,
 I didn't bad mouth it, I said the WELL was more
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> user friendly.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> WHich is true.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Agreed....and my UUCP site is Sys V. Even AT&T is more 
friendly than this piece of shinola writtn in f77 (and you can put that in
 the record).
<[Gary] GARY-S> I just objected to your reference that we were struggling to 
stay afloat - I still do
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> You said it ... I didn't.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> It's in a FIGGY bar somewhere.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hello W
<[Gary] GARY-S> anywho - anything to report on your wellen activities in 
support of Forth ?
<W.FEDERICI> HI
<W.FEDERICI>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Is wellen like VAXen, only different?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> We may try to network  with -CFB ... Hi, Federici!
<[Gary] GARY-S> unixin
<W.FEDERICI> Any multitasking  gurus here?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep. I may change from the C-Shell to /walt/cs/stu/olorin/f
orth/forth as my default shell
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> For what...pure Forth or captured?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Anyway, Gary, PROFESSIONALLY I ( yes) ENCOURAGE EVERY 
CLIENT WHO CALLS FOR FORTH HELP TO SIGN ON GENIE>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Or just general?
<W.FEDERICI> Either, but thinking of  the coop. type
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> That includes VALMONT INDUSTIRES INCORPORATED, IBM, 3M 
and others.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What operating system, or does it matter? And what is the 
question?
<[Gary] GARY-S> I'm serious - any news you want to pass on here ? - you know 
this gets ported to the x CFB's
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You said the I word, Jax.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I'm serious.
<W.FEDERICI> Wondering about possibly using Forth for some process control.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Anyway, the ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> As in...FORTH as the master job..controlling other jobs?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> oops, did someone say PROCESS CONTROL?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Anyway, we hope to make the internationally famous WELL 
and international ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> FORTH browsing spot also.
<[Gary] GARY-S> that's what Forth does best !!!
<W.FEDERICI> The question is, can a process control program which needs quick 
response be conbimed with a terminal task, without some kind of preempti
on?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> We will have files on line shortly, in no small part due 
to the magnaminity ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Process, not physical control, Gar. As in, jobs in a 
multitasker, not a robot arm
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Please repeat..overtyped on the line
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> of JERRY SHIFRIN, of ECFB.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Also, if you want to try a lightweight FORTH under UNIX, 
just go to ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> the WELL Forth Conference and type    cforth      !
<[Gary] GARY-S> You do know we take the position that the GEnie Forth RT is 
entirely public domain ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No! It doesn't even support does!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Federici ... try to be more specific!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Don't use cforth!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Gary ... yes, thank you for mentioning it, but ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> you should know that the WELL *doesn't*.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> You are supposed to *ask* before reposting parts of confs 
elsewhere, ask the
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> individuals involved.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Get F83 from Mitch Bradley (PD version). Available for 
anonymous FTP from manendo.jpl.nasa.gov (128.149.16.2)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> But you have my permission to reproduce anythig I post in 
the FORTH conf ( in context).
<W.FEDERICI> Consider a simple program which has to check a transducer input at 
least everymillisec or so.  A terminal user could define or use some w
ord which grabs the processor, unless we have preemption,.l. no?
<[Gary] GARY-S> The only goodie I moved was yours - did you object ?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Not at all.
<[Gary] GARY-S> thanks
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> DH ... email it to me UUENCODE.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You'd be best to be interrupt driven.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> RIght.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Email...the whole damn thing? 980k of tarred and 
compressed? Like hell
<W.FEDERICI> That's my thinking, just wondered if I miss3ed something.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Pull it across yerself...I don't even have it tarred and 
compressed anymore...its a big mama. I don't have disk space to do that!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> But you can do a TEST IF PAUSE ELSE DON"T PAUSE THEN if 
that is what you are thinking.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> so to speak.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> DH ... where did you say I find this goodie?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> DId not get your arcane reference.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Every millisec? If it's time important...preempt! Don't go 
round-robin
<W.FEDERICI> I'd like to keep it "safe" for the process control, in case the 
"user" does something untoward.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> See what you get for not reading comp.lang.forth, it was 
posted there!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I don't know how to use USENET yet. I can get at it, but 
am kinda busy.
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Now at least I have a host account!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> FTP as user "anonymous", password "guest" to the site 
manendo.jpl.nasa.gov . Its in the directory /pub as /pub/f83.tar.Z
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hello Leonard
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Where is "file storage" in USENET.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I don't understand the process. YOu should email me & 
explain step by step ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its not as a file...just the info on where to get it from. 
Use FTP (if you can)...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I was thinking of offering my services as a Forth fair witness 
(host) but I thought it would pose a conflict of interest with GEnie -
agree jaxen ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Do you have an account on the Internet?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> heo to wind into it. What is FTP?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> File Transfer Program
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (or is Well UUCP only?)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Well, Please email explan, dave. Then I will try to 
decode it at leisure.
<[Gary] GARY-S> well can internet
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Anyway, gar, not sure on that last point you raised.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok. (quick UNIX tutorial)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> By email ... let's stick to FORTH here.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ask at your end - then i will ask here
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Though I appreciate it.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its a "how to get FORTH isn't it?"
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Yes.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> True.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok. Siddown an' shaddup for a minute
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Buffers On
<[Gary] GARY-S>  sittin' and shuttin' !!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Type from UNIX prompt)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ftp manendo.jpl.nasa.gov
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (if you get a site not found error, type "ftp 128.149.16.2"
<W.FEDERICI> has left.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> When ftp prompts you for your user name, type "anonymous"
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> When it prompts you for a password, type "guest"
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> When it gives you the prompt, type "type binary" (to allow 
binary transfer)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Then type "cd /pub"
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Now, I am assuming that you started this from wherever you 
want to put the FORTH (where in the directory structure, that is)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> right
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So ype "get f83.tar.Z"
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> type even
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> This could take quite a while, it depends on how fast a 
connection you have
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Once you have the file (it will tell you), type "bye" or 
"quit"
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> wait
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> three lines up you said >type even
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> was that "type 'even""?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> At one point (the first command), you type, "type binary" 
to set the ftp into binary mode. Did I say "type even" or something?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> after >type "get f83.tar.Z"
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok. The steps after "get f83.tar.Z"...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> wait for the file to transfer. Then type "bye" or "quit"
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> does this run under BSD4.3 on VAX 11/750
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Now that you are in the Unix shell, type "uncompress f83.
tar.Z"
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> right
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It should...but you have the source...and all the makefiles
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> right .. and compiler access!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> so it hould be no problem to port
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> thank you.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Gary ... let's get back to the discussion of FORTH confs .
.. is or is not ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Now that you have it uncompressed, type "tar -xf f83.tar" 
and wait for it to unarchive...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> FIG struggling with its GEnie venture
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And them browse through the created directories.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What striggling? Did I miss something?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> repeat, dave, i thought you were done How
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> do you unarchive?
<[Gary] GARY-S> it is NOT strugging - neitherm is it a profit center
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You type "tar -xf f83.tar". Be sure you have enough disk 
space (3 meg tops), and be sure that you tranfered everything across in
binary mode.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its archived and squashed...and stull 980k!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> still
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Ok, I must have misunderstood what you were saying a few 
weeks back.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> I thought you said ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> That GEnie was bugging FIG that usage was too low.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Gary] GARY-S> I remeber distinctly what you are refering to now - shall I 
recant or recount ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Recant Recant! Or we can burn you at the Cobol!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Re explain.
<[Gary] GARY-S> The GEnie Forth RT is NOT a profit center and neither is it 
losing it's ass...
<[Gary] GARY-S> it is close to break-even at times...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> THat's right Gary...or we *will* tie you down, make you 
write bad checks, and maintain 20 year old Cobol code on a Honeywell unde
r Pick!
<[Gary] GARY-S> so what ? it is all volunteer and was never intended to be a 
big...
<[Gary] GARY-S> money maker but not a money loser either...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Uhoh...I jes thought of something velly bad!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well is a VAXen?
<[Gary] GARY-S> what the question was raised about was the 3 sysops and 2 
helpers as the only guests at a conference...
<[Gary] GARY-S> that is NOT how to run a conference.
<[Gary] GARY-S> explained enough????
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> !
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Is well a VAXen?
<[Gary] GARY-S> go len
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Slight change in subject...
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> George Shaw suggested that we advertise the novice...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> !!!!!!!!!!
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> conferences on other BBS's
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> We could probably do it on ECFB, etc...
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> But there would be objections from the commercial boards...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> or on the new, enlarged Forth conference on the WELL, len
<[Gary] GARY-S> hey jax - post a note on well about leonard's novice FIGGY's on 
sunday , ok ?
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you agree?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> which is commercial, but groovy.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You could also try to get it on the main banner.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> it *is* on the main banner.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have met FORTHers on GEnie who do not know that this RT 
exists.
<[Gary] GARY-S> do that len - leave a banner to laura
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The GEnie wide main banner
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Anyway, gary, one question ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> has FIG learned to read its email yet?
<[Gary] GARY-S> geeze - i can't answer that - I leave all my comments directly 
to JDHALL
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Glenn Tenney told me when the subject of electronic FIG 
was broached ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> he lobbied for the WELL.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> and lost.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> .
<[Gary] GARY-S> I read that comment on the well
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> I live 25 miles from Sausalito, where the WELL is...
<[Gary] GARY-S> The Well can not compete with GEnie geographically - in that 
respect i don't see how it could have hoped for selection
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> and I con't reach them without a toll...
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> far more than $5 per hour.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> true ... I understand the problem
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> but there are advantages too. But you know MY solution ...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> FIG conf in FORTH on a FORTH parallel mainframe.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But the GEnie interface is something out of the dark days. 
Why not use something based on FYI software. That'd be fitting...after
 all...everythign FY doews is written in a heavily dialect of CONVERS!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> ...!!
<[Gary] GARY-S> yeah - but it is NOT for everybody - I assure you
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> doews - does
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> GEnie is a good temporary soluting
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> FY - FYI
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> but let's not get complacent!
<[Gary] GARY-S> whatever happened to the Forth front-end project ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Forth front-end project
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ????
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Withered on vine. Nobody interested.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ask jaxen
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> That's the problem about dealing with GEnie ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> dennis was, I was , sounds like Dave is...
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> It takes a lot of decision making to get to try anything.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHAT IS IT??!!??!!??!!
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> On the WELL, I have compiler access
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> On GEnie, I have shit-list access.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> And my name is moving up.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> ,,,:-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHat the hell are you talking about? Patching GEnie?
<[Gary] GARY-S> That's not GEnie - that's life in corporate America - that's 
why the Japanese are forging ahead
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes...but is their forge hot enough to make the torso?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Dave ... a FORTH "sampler" under FORTRAN for the FIG conf.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Twisted....very twisted....but would it mean that we get 
access to the GEnie code? To fiddle with?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> They gave us a list of about fifteen steps we would have 
to follow to do it.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (FORTH captured under f77...shudder)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> Each one requeres more than two people's approval!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And aren't the RTs written in C (that was my 
understandoing)
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> You got me.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I still think the flavor is ForTran IV
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> IAnyway, if anyone wants to clear out the red tape, I 
might get interested
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The main system is f77, with RTs written in C...that was 
my info as of yesterday or the day beofre.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> again ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Give me the access....I'll work on it.
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> but otherwise, who has the time? I'm a programmer, not a 
stock broker.
<[Gary] GARY-S> do I hear any professional students volunteering ?
<[Jax Rampant] VESTA> You should hear the demo convention.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Do I hear the sounds of cash (or free access). I barely 
have time to sleep. And I spend 8-12 hrs a day before the keyboard anyway