Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 06/22/89   Time: 22:28EDT

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS]
       
 FIGGY BAR of 22 June 1989. The evening question was, "Is Forth becomming a 
           Embedded Controller Language ONLY ?". This dominated the conference.
           Also: SIGFORTH ACM, Ada required by gov,32 bit chips,Single Boards,
           Macro Assm vs Metacomp Forth kernels.   The shame of the PRC.
Minutes:
<DHWEINSTEIN> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Answer to question: Hell NO!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> DId you get my letter?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yep - two person RT is a BIG risk
<[Gary] GARY-S> I know - push it with a proviso we are seeking a third with 
strong edu background
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok. No problem. I'll rewrite the proposal and have it out 
tonight!
<[Gary] GARY-S> brb
<APPERT> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo Kevin
<[Kevin] APPERT> hi
<[Kevin] APPERT> embeded controllers only?  who says?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> My answer to that was a resounding "Hell NO!"
<[Kevin] APPERT> me too
<[Kevin] APPERT> counter-examples are legion
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Actually I tend to use Forth as a way of learning about 
new programming technniques and honing my skills (my Forth paying jobs are 
unfortunately few and far between).
<[Gary] GARY-S> Obviously I pushed the right button with tonight's question - 
about time
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Current project is a Smalltalk model Object Oriented 
extension complete with multiple inheritance. And it shouldn't cause that mu
ch of a performance hit (i.e. ok for anything not absolutely time critical)
<[Kevin] APPERT> Forth is the programming tool most likely to find it's way 
into any new computing field!  It's used for more different kinds of thing
s than any other language
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The nice thing is that the Smalltalk model of 
object<--message (i.e. you tell a model to do xxx to itself) merges splendidly 
with
 the Forth ideal of "noun modifier verb" coding style!
<[Gary] GARY-S> The question arose because of all the encroachment into 
otherwise Forth domains by C and Smalltalk and Pascal
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Gary: I've seen realtime work done in Forpran!
<[Gary] GARY-S> Forpran ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (for that matter I've seen it done in Cobol)
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Fortran. My fingers aren't performing up to par tonight.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo Jax
<[Control] FIGCHAPTERS> Have some filthy tea!
<[Gary] GARY-S> 'scuse - filthy tea ???
<[Control] FIGCHAPTERS> ( Bill Haydon Quoting Control in Le Carre's _Tinker 
Tailor Soldier Spy_)
<[Control] FIGCHAPTERS> I thought the topic toinght was Control.
<[Control] FIGCHAPTERS> He is a character in Le Carre's books.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> >Fwapp<
<[Gary] GARY-S> you have very strange bends of thought (?)
<[Kevin] APPERT> as always, we are out of control, Jax
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> You just noticed?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (bent into pretzels)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Zotz ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> So - what is Forth's future, prognosticators you
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Gary Betts of ANSI said to me ..
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> "Dinosaurs became extinct ....
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> "but we still have chickens ...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> "If Forth dies ...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> "The last thing to go will be standalone controller 
projects"
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Forth isn't going to die! (Sound of diehard)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Of course not.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> It's only imbeciles that think that.
<[Kevin] APPERT> we still have turkeys, also, QED
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Remember what Ron Reagan's producer said about his movie 
career ?
<[Kevin] APPERT> what?
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> He said ...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> " There were lots of better actors ...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> but Ronald Reagan always showed up on time, sober, with 
his lines ready."
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth is like that.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Embedded Systems is the current stronghold - does that 
represent the last <==devil's advocate
<[Gary] GARY-S> well ... is it
<[Kevin] APPERT> better languages then forth?
<[Kevin] APPERT> I have not seen one yet
<[Gary] GARY-S> is it the last shot
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Look ....
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> If you want to get a bunch of college-graduated drudges .
..
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> and lock them in a big project ...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> and pay peanuts ....
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> You do it in C.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If I knew a better language than Forth I'd be using it as 
my language of choice.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Use Modula, Pascal, or Ada!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Or ada, Mod2 or Pasc.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> right dave.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> But if you want cutting edge creatvitity, it's Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> the problem with doing that is that there is no way to insure 
reliability!
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> C comes along afterwards like the road crew to lay the 
asphalt for the superhiway.
<[Kevin] APPERT> the biggest advantage of forth is in the testing of modules
<[Gary] GARY-S> God help us - DOD is proscribing Ada - have you even seen the 
Ada user's guide(s) <VOLUMESssssssssss>
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What about those of who are semi-college-graduated 
(graduation delayed due to a silly desire for an education rather than being a
 number)?
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> So, the gov't. rules out creativity. This is perhaps big 
news?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (If it weren't for the need to have a degree to get most 
jobs with decent pay in this field...)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth programmers want to carry their shells on their 
backs.
<[Gary] GARY-S> It condems gov projects to moprasses of morasses - and we do 
need gov productivity
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> If you are going to be computer-zen-priest, you can't 
complain about the fleshpots being closed to you!
<[Kevin] APPERT> you can't legislate morality, economy, or software reliability!
  tell this to the politicians
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Look, the way our gov't has been running, I would be 
satisfied with a little LESS productivity.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I want to have my Zen and fleshpots too!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (grin)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> That's why you're a C programmer.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> C programmers have better job prospects ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I resent that implication. C pays the rent.
<[Kevin] APPERT> we have a law in this state (ca) which tells insurance 
companies what to charge
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> in general ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (And then some. Unix/C prorgammers get the highest 
salaries in this industry)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> but a good Forth programmer, where you need Forth, can 
just about write the ticket.
<[Kevin] APPERT> if they can ever figure out how to inforce it, how are they 
going to have any insurance companies in this state?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Unfortunately due to an education in progress...they get 
away with paying me a good deal *less* than the going rate.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> I wasn't implicating, dave ... you said it ... "C pays 
the rent".
<[Gary] GARY-S> Thanks to all the help Dave has NOT received for his TJC column 
he has graciously elected to load his code into the library - thanks D
ave
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> It's probably time to nationalize the insurance 
companies, then sell them back to private industry in 15 years!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It beats being morally right and living under a bridge. If 
I could get a steady Forth job in Austin I'd leap. (If you are reading
 this and want to hire a Foerprogrammer in the Austin area...)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Good swindle, Britain has pulled it a few times.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Dave, that's the point.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth programmers are right and broke.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> "Wide is that path leading to destruction" and it's 
jammed with C programmers.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> If you want a Forth job, come work for me in COlorado.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What we need is to do what many of the people in other 
languages do. True remote programmers. If Steve Roberts can do remote work
 from a bicycle...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> My mother and sister would be thrilled (another excuse to 
come and ski). And I must admit the idea is tempting. But I not only ne
ed to eventually get a degree (and just signed another year lease)...I really 
don't want to move Austin.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (There are decided disadvantages to falling in love with 
the place you live)
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> That is coming, Dave ... it just ain't quite here yet. I 
did remote programming for a while. But I found that there is plenty t
o do in-house too.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Now if Vesta would have remote work done...
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> We have contract programmers.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> We just need an in-houser now.
<[Kevin] APPERT> has anybody else gotten vol1, #1 of SIGFORTH newslette of ACM
<[Gary] GARY-S> no
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> Besides, you could use exposure to some professional 
Forth programmers, Dave.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> It's like C ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not yet. I just got the form requesting I sign the 
permissions for the Paper Prints today.
<[Smiley] FIGCHAPTERS> It don't really come overnight.
<[Gary] GARY-S> It is starting to challenge Forsley's record for on-time 
delivery
<[Kevin] APPERT> I just got mine today
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Jax: I know.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I didn't get my Sig FOrth NL, but I got the Editor last 
week :-)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Chuck Curley dropped by.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> OooooOOOOOOoooo. Then mine will be coming. Soon. Yeah!!! 
(thrills and excitement). I'm still waiting for ACM to send me the $%^#$
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did my comment about Dave slide right past you two >?
<[Kevin] APPERT> says "spring 89"   equinox was yesterday, when was Larry only 
1 day late?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> no, the SOLSTICE ... equinox was months ago.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Who Knows FACTS about ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> ooops, all the solar scientists are out of town!  solstice is 
right
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> the new CHUCK CHIP.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> ..???
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (eyes rivet on the screen) (wipes drool off of keyboard) 
the new CHUCK CHIP! Speak!
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm asking.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Chuck - I tried to call him tonight - guess he's in Rochester
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Who saw ESP for July?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh. I thought you had something. Ahh well.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not me.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I have a need for a Forth chip.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Forth is rather prominent in July ESP.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Silicon Comp and harris sells lots of them Jax
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Good.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Poof! Want 32-banger. Chuck Chip or New RTX or SC32 for 
jax!
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> ( not necc. in that order).
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I thought the SC32 was available already.
<[Gary] GARY-S> so - call Harris, SC or Comp Cowboy
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Called Comp. Cowboys. Short on info.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> In negot. with SC>
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> RTX calls us once a week.
<[Gary] GARY-S> What is 32 bit project ?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> 32-bit Forth Singleboard.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Nobody builds 'em more economical than VESTA.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ask a stupid question
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Nice.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Nice and useful and cheap that's us.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Loaded question Jax
<[Gary] GARY-S> Who does Vesta consider their prime competitor(s)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What we really need is a full scale Forth workstation 
project. But unlike the dedicated Lisp workstations (i.e. TI Explorer) it'l
l probably need to run a major operating system (i.e. Unix in this day and age),
 at least as an option.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> We don't really have many competitors.
<[Gary] GARY-S> isd NMI ?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> In the vector sum of reliability, useability and 
development environment,
<[Gary] GARY-S> Inner Access ?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> we occupy a fairly unique niche.
<[Gary] GARY-S> SC ?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Not really ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> do any of them
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> You see ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> we are not in the market in general to provide ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> the most doctrinally correct boards ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> we produce ....
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> well-designed, economical development engines that 
HAPPEN to have Forth on them ....
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> because that is the best way to provide Development-
World-On-A-Board.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> We are a Forth house ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> but only because there is no other way to do what we 
want ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Our latest price list features ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> $99 complete single-board computers w/A2d, I/o, etc ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> ( resident language extra).
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> We can't be beat by too many shops.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> In addition,
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> VESTA has full design capabilities ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> Don't get too commercial
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is a kit, right. (Tries to picture $99 A&T).
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> engineering CAD and programming services.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> No, it is not a kit ... it's an SBB-88 with 8 k Ram.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> You asked why we didn't consider the others competition 
...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> $99 A&T!!! (impressed look)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> we are not exactly in the same business ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> We sell the off-the-shelf stuff ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> but in house we have a LOT of project and design years 
of experience.
<[Kevin] APPERT> non_sequitor:  anybody know any good arguments for writing 
forth in MACRO-assembler?  (I feel it's not a really great idea, myself)
<[Gary] GARY-S> There are none - really except it is just easier to write Forth 
in Forth soon afetr docol
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Write Forth as macros and run it through the assembler? Or 
write a Forth which has a large part of the language done in assembly
rather than through bootstrapping?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> It's easier to metacompile Forth than to write Forth, 
believe me.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> It's really just a case of easy.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> The argument for doing FIG that way ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> there are several friends who arn't sold on metacompilers, 
they think they are too hard to understand
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But a fully native Forth (especially if smart enough to do 
inline substitution for some operations) should run faster.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> was it was a way to spread Forth rapidly to a variety 
of architectures before there was much transportability.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> You can metacompile as fast a Forth as you can assemble.
<[Kevin] APPERT> there are no good books, and they can't seem to pick it up by 
example
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> The metacompiler IS hard to understand.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Jax: Agreed.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> But so are C compiler internals.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (also agreed)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Once you "get" it ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> The metacompiler is a LOT easier than assembler.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> really.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its just a matter of the learning curve. Once you know it, 
you can't understand why you didn't before.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> you just have to take the hurdle.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> If you want to learn metacompiler ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Buy polyFORTH or LMI.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (unfortunately phrases like that are never helpful to 
people on the wrong side of the curve)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (grin)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Or just learn on your own.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> But if you want to learn with SUPPORT ....
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Buy pF or LMI.
<[Kevin] APPERT> pF = $3K?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> si.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I hear a lot of comments to the contarary, but Ting's books 
help - a lot
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> 3k+
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I learned it from a) TING's book + F83 b) Appelman's 
A4th for the Amiga.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> ( also some from pFII).
<[Kevin] APPERT> one of my favorite arguments against is VIEW (pF = LOCATE).  
very difficult to do with assembler not meta
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Against what?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> VIEW is wonderful except on F-PC. I cannot fit all the 
sources on the proper drive  (and hard drives are *expensive* for this box)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Oh, assembler.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Practical problem)
<[Kevin] APPERT> I think Ting was the one who said that the one big disservice 
of FIG was the assembler method, gave too many people the wrong idea
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> BUT ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> The FIG method spread Forth to the VAX.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> There are STILL ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> about six FIG Forths circulating for VAX/VMS!
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I even have on RCFB ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> a FIG Forth for a NEC minny.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Those were the glory days of FIG.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> The crystal ball is cloudy these days.
<[Kevin] APPERT> well I never Meta-compiler I didn't like.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> A_A_A_A_A_R_R_R_G_G_G_H_H_H_H XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ??
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> He started this WHOLE TOPIC JUST TO MAKE THAT JOKE>
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> STRING HIM UP
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> ( anybody got any string? )
<[Kevin] APPERT> no, there are no strings in Forth
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> " This is a String "
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Maybe not in _your_ implementation. I put strings in.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (grin)
<[Kevin] APPERT> just ask any detractor
<[Gary] GARY-S> Ron Braithwaite's string handler works GREAT
<[Kevin] APPERT> there have actually been more string articles, utilities, etc. 
for forth than any other language ... pick one
<[Gary] GARY-S> Just a reminder to make next Thursdays guest conference with 
Tom Zimmer
<[Kevin] APPERT> oooooooooooooo! I can hardly weight!
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I'd love to talk to Zimmer here ... he never returns a 
phone call!
<[Gary] GARY-S> HE will be here next Thursday
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ah well...I need to run. The GEnie clock is ticking...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Later.
<[Gary] GARY-S> Good time tonight - thanks
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left.
<[Gary] GARY-S> How far down the road from you is Bett's operation , Jax
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Boycott PRC Products!
<[Gary] GARY-S> say what
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Down with Deng and Li.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Joe Isuzu has been hired by the PRC as Forign Press Relations 
minister
<[Gary] GARY-S> What products are on the shelf I might buy ?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> I thought it was Goebbels they hired?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Tea, mostly ... all the tea in China!
<[Kevin] APPERT> filthy tea?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Isn't it funny how Old Communists and Old Fascists all 
end up about the same?
<[Gary] GARY-S> I saw a piece on TV decrying the obscenity of Life magazines 
BRA cover ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> to my mind what is obscene is old men in China executing 
children to preserve their power
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Obscenity ... HAH! I see more than that each weekend at 
the beach.
<[Kevin] APPERT> is this a link?  (like Monty Python?)
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Hey the gov't here ran a train over Brian Wilson and 
nobody went to jail.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Fascism is as Fascism does.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> Remember Orwell?
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> His prognostication was that the three SuperStates 
would end up with essentially the same system ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> so he was off by ten years
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> just with different names.
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> CHina is backwards and going backwards ...
<[Gary] GARY-S> 1992 is comming - read Nostradamus
<[Kevin] APPERT> social security numbers, they told us, would not be used as 
identifying numbers!  they are going to start tatooing them on in a coupl
e of years
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> USSR is backwards and going forwards ...
<[Old Sod] FIGCHAPTERS> AMerica is WAY FORWARDS but sneeaking backwards.
<[Kevin] APPERT> they already require them for children to get in to first grade
<[Gary] GARY-S> this is a wrap
=== End of Steno notes. ===