Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 06/13/91   Time: 22:27EDT
    
   Items discussed include some interesting riddles, search for an ANS
   Forth referee for 'Forth Dimensions', Intel 80196, and the Sergei
   Baranoff conference on 20 June which lead to an exchange on Soviet
   history.

Attendees:
[GARY-S]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[ANSI-jax] JAX]
[[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1]

Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<GARY-S> Hi Len - you just missed Sergei
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Too bad. Were you giving him
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a practice round?
<GARY-S> yes - with Brad R. as local guide it was easy
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> BTW I just came from the Word Perfect round table
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The sysop and I were the only ones, then another showed up
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but I had to leave!
<GARY-S> This is summer - that is quite the norm I'm afraid
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Spring fever! Soon to be summer fever.
<GARY-S> It already is here !!!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not till Jun 21, officially.
<GARY-S> I sent Sergei's bio in case I am absent next Thursday
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will be available, d. v. if you can't make it.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Riddle: Who said "Men may come and men may go,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but I go on forever."
<GARY-S> I would just be guessing - shall I ?
<GARY-S> Catherine the Great
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not bad. My answer was Elizabeth Taylor
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Actually Tennyson: The Brook)
<GARY-S> Hmm - excellent
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What weighs more, a pound of gold, or a pound of feathers?
<GARY-S> both weigh 16 ounces
<GARY-S> Did you see my feedback to Marlin ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Downloaded but not yet read.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Wrong. A pound of gold weighs only 12 ounces (troy system)
<GARY-S> ARRRRGH
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You see why we should go metric?
<GARY-S> There aren't Troy grams, are there ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There are troy ounces, and strangely, a
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> an ounce of gold weighs (slightly) more than an ounce of 
feathers!
<GARY-S> I would really miss some of the more outrageous English units ...
<GARY-S> I love to ask people to convert miles per hour..
<GARY-S> to something useful like ----- furlongs per fortnight
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not to be confused with the citric system.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> where things are described as the size of a lemon, orange
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> or whatever.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To a computer nerd, halloween = Christmas
<GARY-S> explain
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> because 25 DEC = 31 OCT
<GARY-S> That is too clever !
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (per Alan Furman)
<GARY-S> I like it !
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thirty days hath Septober, April June and No Wonder.
<GARY-S> Sanity break - Marlin is looking for an unbiased (if possible) Ans 
Forth referee to preview ANS articles for FD
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hard.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A Forth programmer without preconceived ideas is probably
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a contradiction in terms.
<GARY-S> Scan those I suggested and see if you can come up with another one or 
two...
<GARY-S> using perhaps a different criteria..
<GARY-S> I based my suggestions on those I knew had created a working kernel 
or two
<JAX> is here.
<GARY-S> Jax - how are you ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Hi gars!
<GARY-S> Think you will make next weeks conference ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Probably not.
<GARY-S> It'll be Sergei
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> The only reason I'm here tonight is I can't go to chess since 
I hurt my back.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Questions 1. How did it happen
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 2. Why does it prevent you from playing chess?
<GARY-S> You don't think a guest like Sergei warrants one chess absence?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> 1. I shovelled 1/2 ton of dirt into a garden ... pulled my 
back with the first shovelfull, but didn't want to quit.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> 2. It's a pain in the tail to drive over to the chess club, 
feeling like this.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I see
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> As for Sergei, well, I'd like to chat with him, let's see what 
happens. Telecom is not really an overwhelming personal contact medium
, let's face it :-)
<GARY-S> Ahhh - but the transcript becomes a historical archive
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> You'd probably get pissed off at me, I'd switch to typing in 
Russian with him, and no one else but maybe Wil Baden would be able to r
ead our conversation!
<GARY-S> You have Cyrilic keys and comm software to match and GEnie can accept 
them  ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I just purchased a road map of Russia and looked up
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> the area where my mother was born.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It was near Proskurov, which I had trouble finding
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> because they have changed the name to Chmelnicky
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, the amiga has fonts, my son created a Russian one ... 
but that's not what I mean ... you can write russian correctly in Roman l
etters, there is a system of one-to-one transliteration.
<GARY-S> I see Leningrad will once again become St. Petersburg
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Peter the great was too modest to name the city after 
himself
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> How ridiculous. Neither St. Peter nor Lenin ever did a damn 
thing for Russia :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> so he named it after his patron saint.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Besides, before the Rev. it was "Petrograd", "Sankt Peterburg" 
was outmoded centuries ago.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I disagree about Peter. He brought Russia out of
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> its isolation into the Western world, drove out the turks
<GARY-S> Peter Jennings hasn't read that, apparently
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and did other things.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Much harm also.
<GARY-S> He was a typical tyrant, also
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, I disagree about Lenin, he actually was a great 
individual. His tragedy was that of Augustus Caesar, of whom it was written, "H
e never should have been born, but having been born, he should never have died."
<GARY-S> How can you say that knowing well the atrocities and slave camps of 
Lenin ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Lenin changed the course of history, all right,
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Lenin didn't open the slave camps. Stalin did. Lenin died in 
1924.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> That's the problem. typical of russian history. The leader 
dies, and no worthy successor appears.
<GARY-S> Lenin was hardly dirt-free
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes Stalin's takeover after Lenin died was a tragedy not
<GARY-S> What of Trotsky
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> only for Russian history, but probably for the world.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> In America, the political leaders are typically unworthy of 
the people. In Russia, the people continually have proven themselves unwo
rthy of their leaders.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Trotsky would not have been as bad.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Trotsky would have been a disaster of a different kind.,
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Stalin was a typical paranoid. A psychiatrist who diagnosed
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> him as that was poisoned.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Trotsky believed that world war II was coming, and that it 
would be fought (dig this) on horseback, by cavalry.
<GARY-S> It was in Poland - briefly
<GARY-S> Needless to say, the luftwaffe made short damn work of horse drawn 
canon
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> So it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> If you want to understand Trotsky and Stalin, read Deutscher's 
trilogy onTrotsky, and his single volume "Stalin".
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> But if Lenin had lived, I believe that Russian history would 
have been quite different.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> The russian intellectuals nowadays hold that Leninism led 
directly to Stalinism ...
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> But there was not a cult of leninism until stalin instituted 
it after lenin's death.
<C.MORAVETZ1> is here.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Anyway, all things considered, I am *quite* happy that my 
grandparents left Russia in the previous century!!
<GARY-S> Why are you using Russian interchangably for Soviet ?
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Howdy, All.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Huh?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Hi Cliff.
<GARY-S> Russia is but one republic (though the largest) in the USSR - why did 
you refer to Russian intellectuals ?
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> What's the ANSI for, Jax?
<GARY-S> Hi Cliff
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Oh, because I am quoting russian intellectuals. I have no idea 
what the Georgians believe, for instance, though they still hold Stali
n up as a hero in some parts of Georgia.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Cliff, there was a little chat about ANSI as I entered, you 
know how I like to change my handle every week!
<GARY-S> He _was_ from Georgia
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Hmmm... It is hard to get a handle on Jax. :)
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Right. Son of a drunken cobbler.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Cliff -- :-)
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Looks like an interesting conversation here.
<GARY-S> How'd you likke to walk a kilometer in those shoes <grin>
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Serge Baranoff next week ... we're debating Russian history.
<GARY-S> Mostly because of next week's guest and this week's ancestry
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> We're trying to decide who the greatest SOB in Russian history 
was ... any nominations :-)
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> There's plenty to debate. I understand Russion history 
keeps changing.
<GARY-S> Both Jax and Len are decendants of Russian emigrants
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, Jews from the Pale.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> I think Karl Marx is the biggest SOB.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> My anscestors actually are from Poland and Lithuania and 
Germany.
<GARY-S> Close enough
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Len's are from the Ukraine.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> The big joke is that the city they came from was renamed 
"Chmielnicky" as Len said ...
<GARY-S> I have f riends in Lithuania and Estonia - be glad you aren't there now
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Chmielnicky was a murderer of Jews, the greatest in European 
history before Hitler.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Are you Jewish, Jax?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> 7/16.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> or is it 3/8?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> But I speak the languages.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> .
<GARY-S> only  you could have ever come up with such an a bsurd response
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> A little under half, or can't decide?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> No, it's the truth.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> I thought it was chosen for you at birth...
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> about 8 days after.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> My mother is Jewish, but her grandmother was a half-jewish 
child who was abandoned at a jewish settlement.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> so I am 7/16 jewish.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> By choice, I am a born-again hippie pagan, 60's style.
<GARY-S> Anything computerish or Forthish to discuss before this evening's 
notes are histroy ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> But you can never escape the ethnic stuff.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> It's like oobleck. It sticks to you when you try to shake it 
off :-)
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> So that's why you're such a wild eyed Forth fanatic.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Yes, my ANS Forth for the Amiga will be out in July or August, 
jaxthinx.
<GARY-S> will you   makke it public or shareware ?
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> :)
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Shareware, I think. I already have a customer, so I can't 
release it PD.
<GARY-S> I presume you will post it here, then ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> But of *course*, M'sieu ...
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> If you can get money for it, don't give away for free, eh?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, I meant to just release it Cliff, but a friend of mine 
needed it for an emergency, and I will have to sign a contract about dis
tribution.
<GARY-S> Some do well using 'user supported software' as their marketing device 
- Chuck Forsberg, for one
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, my customer is for industrial control
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> What, you mean you can't give it away...
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> if you sell it to the customer?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> So I can't just give it away to the public, or he would be 
paying for what his competitors can have for free.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> OIC!!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> So I will give away the kernel binary ... but no source. 
Utilities, upgrades, manual: Send money.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> I am considering developing a commerical version on another OS.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Why not get money for it? I cost you your time, right?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> I have been importuned to become a developer for another OS.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Yes, I have been working on this since October, 1989.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> And I tell ya what.
<GARY-S> That is Mitch Bradley's method - manual and source for $50.00
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> I will likely never write a Forth in straight assembler again!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Sheesh!!!!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> about 4,500 lines of ASM.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> foof.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Why not? I thought that was THE WAY!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Well, it was fun, but it's a lot of work!
<GARY-S> That's a bit much ! how much of that is avoidance with the Amiga User 
Interface ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Starting *after* I started JAX4TH, and finishing *completely* 
long *before* I am done JAX4TH, I have written an entire 80196 Forth, w
riting the metacompiler from scratch.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> I have had no problem with the Amiga OS. That part was 
simplicity itself.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> It's debugging, it's tough under any multitasking os.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> How do you like your Amiga?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Also, this has been in my spare time.
<GARY-S> Do you prefer Intel or Motorola architecture ?
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Love my Amiga.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> MOtorola architecture, no doubt about it.
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Much more rational, though the 80196 ain't bad.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> I'm sick and tired of this Intel barf chip on my PC.
<GARY-S> don't care for flipped addresses ? <grin>
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Gotta run, my little girl wants to play!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> Gnite all!
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> ABSOLUTELY!!!!
<[ANSI-jax] JAX> has left.
<GARY-S> g'nite Jax
<GARY-S> Cliff - any last shots ?
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> What is the 80196?
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Haven't heard about it.
<GARY-S> Intel chip - very powerful in embedded applications
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> How much RAM/ROM does it have?
<GARY-S> Been a few articles in ESP
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> Is similar to the 80x86 chips?
<GARY-S> Think the last issue answered some of those specifics
<GARY-S> Only in that it is Intel
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> If it came from Intel, I bet it has band aids and 
squirrel cages inside.
<[Cliff] C.MORAVETZ1> MAybe even a few sparking relays.
<GARY-S> hahahaha  - at least it doesn't have segmented addressing
=== End of Steno notes. ===