Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.
    The FIGGY BAR  06/05/88 
  Items discussed include Leonard's upcoming Nivice Tutorial FIGGY BARS,
starting Sunday, July 10, Forth Standards and Category 10 here on the 
Forth RT, state smart words and the concept of cells.
Attendees:
[[Gary]GARY-S]
[HIGHC]
[[jax] VESTA]
[[Dave]DWEINSTEIN]
          
Minutes:
<DHWEINSTEIN> is here.
<GARY-S> Hey Dave - guess you know you started something ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hello Gary
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ohh?
<GARY-S> you bet - the Sunday Novice Q & A
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But there is noone here?
<GARY-S> NOT tonight !
<GARY-S> There will be an announcement in FD - and Leonard...
<GARY-S> will chair the tutorial sessions starting...
<GARY-S> July 10. Spread the word !
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> How?
<GARY-S> You type - you talk - obnoxious people communication skills
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Thank you. But to whom?
<GARY-S> Probably not the bus driver - but any computer type is fair game
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Has anyoone else been here tonight?
<GARY-S> No - you're the first , that's why you get me at my best ??????
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> This is your best? Sheesh...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well...
<GARY-S> Hey - it gets worse as you get older
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> since the subject is standards....
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I LIKE MY STATE-SMART WORDS!!!!!!!!!
<GARY-S> Have you said so in Cat 10 ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No
<GARY-S> Then - PLEASE DO
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey...I use F79...their in there!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But...I guess I'll say something.
<GARY-S> Point to make here...
<GARY-S> There is going to be an ans standard...
<GARY-S> it will be adopted by the community as a whole...
<GARY-S> it is being drafted now...
<GARY-S> if you want your opinions and ideas considered in...
<GARY-S> the future of Forth you have to voice them...
<GARY-S> IT is that simple.
<GARY-S> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If Ghod, and nature, had meant for us to have
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> standards, he'd never have let them be designed by 
committees.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<GARY-S> no argument there... as Chuck Moore has said...
<GARY-S> standards are a red flag and if he conformed...
<GARY-S> to standards there would be no Forth...
<GARY-S> but, there will be an ANS standard that will serve as a model...
<GARY-S> and State smart is one of the BIG arguments.
<GARY-S> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> RS232 is a great example!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> BRB
<HIGHC> is here.
<GARY-S> hey Bill
<HIGHC> GOOD EVENING
<GARY-S> Got an argument going with Dave W as soon as he returns...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> High Bill
<GARY-S> Beer run I think
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -gh
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You called it.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<GARY-S> RS-232 was never more than a recommended standard ...
<GARY-S> That's what the (R) stands for.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Standard???
<GARY-S> What does that have to do with Forth ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Just another example of ANSI at its worst.
<GARY-S> Not true - RS232 was EIA's baby...
<GARY-S> I do data comm , so I know this ball field
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Saw a T-Shirt once, RS232 (circle slash)
<GARY-S> Any way - what do you like about which specific state-smart words ?
<GARY-S> ['] ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yes.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I also like ."
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And state-smartness in general.
<GARY-S> It has its place, but some argue it gets in the way ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> How?
<GARY-S> and they aren't all that smart...
<GARY-S> you reply ....
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> How are they not smart?
<GARY-S> Did anyone else just get a list of help commands ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No
<GARY-S> Wonder how I did that ?
<HIGHC> WHAT HELP COMMANDS???
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Try /help...that'll do it.
<GARY-S> Actually, I can't even play a good devil's advocate here...
<GARY-S> cause I like them too....I just wish..
<GARY-S> I could encourage you to post a comment in Cat 10...
<GARY-S> Greg Bailey pointed out that there are more people that show up for 
the...
<GARY-S> ANS TC meetings than are posting comments if you exclude...
<GARY-S> committeee members and sysops...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Where are the ANS TC meetings?
<GARY-S> the whole point of Cat 10 is to give folks a chance to get...
<GARY-S> involved in the draft process and not repeat another 79-Standard, F-83 
Standard...
<GARY-S> where after they were drafted everyone said, "How cum ?"!!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...and ignored them...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Standards and FORTH just seem intrinsically opposed... :-)
<GARY-S> The meetings are posted in the BBS - the next one is comming up real 
soon...
<HIGHC> WHEN ARE THE NEXT STANDARDS DUE ?
<GARY-S> let me look here in a minute
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I mean...you rewrite the language anyway... ! :-)
<GARY-S> Bill - dave ...you two get acquainted...
<GARY-S> BRB
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 'ello
<HIGHC> DAVE DO YOU MAKE MONEY WRITING FORTH?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Got any questions?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No. I make my living writing in C, Fortran, and AWK (and 
Bourne Scripts and C-Shell Scripts) under Unix (4.2 BSD -- COncentrix) o
n a Minisupercomputer.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<HIGHC> SOK, THEN WHO DOES.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Jax makes his money in FORTH.
<HIGHC> FOR WHAT TYPE OF APPS. IN FORTH??
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I don't know?
<HIGHC> MY IMPRESSION IS THAT PEOPLE SWITCH...
<HIGHC> TO FORTH TO PROGRAM BETTER!!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I prefer FORTH to any other language (including its related
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> language [and predecessor] LISP). But I
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> also enjoy UNIX (and C), and there is a much bigger and
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> better paying market for C/UNIX Wizards.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<HIGHC> DOES FORTH HAVE THE ABILITY TO PATCH IN AND OUT OF C??
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> There is a standard team at work on that. But not ANSI. 
Instead, it is
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> working on running FORTH under UNIX. And to work 
effectively in UNIX, being able to switch into C is important.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Check the library doing a search under the keyword UNIX 
for the working report)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The other way is to compile the C code, but capture the 
Assembly it produces as
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> mnemonics. Most coimpilers let you do this
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> and since most FORTHs have
<HIGHC> DO YOU KNOW OF ANY SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS USING FORTH..
<HIGHC> OR MAJOR CORPS. ??
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> the ability to use assembly intermixed, you can feed it in 
as assembly.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sun uses FORTH a great deal in development.
<HIGHC> ONE OF MY REASONS FOR LOOKING AT FORTH IS...
<GARY-S> NUTZ ! I can't find it ! August is the next vote on the Basis ( I 
think ),..
<GARY-S> and it seems Jun 10 is the next TC meeting
<GARY-S> sorry
<HIGHC> TO BE ABLE TO JUMP IN AND OUT OF APPS. IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Where?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not at the moment.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Although I think the UNIX/FORTH team is working on that. 
Gary, is WMB on GEnie?
<GARY-S> If you guys can get on - I'll keep looking ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Here?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or has it got a physical location?
<GARY-S> It has a place - DC - i think ...
<GARY-S> let me look a little longer
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Just a leetle ways from here
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (DC that is)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Be back in a bit.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left.
<GARY-S> Bill - didn't mean to leave you in a lurch
<GARY-S> The idea Dave proposed Thursday is going into effect...
<GARY-S> July 10 and I think you'll get a LOT out of it.
<HIGHC> i
<HIGHC> Which is??
<GARY-S> Leonard will be holding a Novice Q & A..
<GARY-S> each sunday...how does that sound ?
<GARY-S> .
<HIGHC> gGreat he sent me some e-mail..
<HIGHC> We are having a strom up this way which is raising hell with...
<HIGHC> my modem, so if I disappear you'll know why!!!
<GARY-S> You may want to get off anyway if there's a lot of lightening.
<GARY-S> It will zap a computer in a flash !
<HIGHC> no it seems to be between my node and here which a 200 mile call for me!
!!
<GARY-S> Have you looked at some of the tutorial stuff on the Board ?
<HIGHC> yes but some of it is very confusing, it seems to be scattered...
<GARY-S> leonard and Scott both put up some good stuff...
<HIGHC> some organization into a begginers list...
<GARY-S> I agree it is scattered...
<HIGHC> file would help..
<GARY-S> Leonard did consolidate a good bit of it in a library...
<DHWEINSTEIN> is here.
<GARY-S> file, You may want to just download it and study it in your leisure..
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> re
<GARY-S> and save a buck in the process.
<GARY-S> .
<HIGHC> If you could get the different versions together with ...
<HIGHC> there associated help files it would help also!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey...Lower Case??!!??
<HIGHC> Please excuse the typo's!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-)
<GARY-S> Easier said than done.
<HIGHC> I'm a two pinky plunker!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ten fingers and a self taught no tecnique pseudo touch 
typist.
<GARY-S> Dave = I was wrong on both counts
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ohh?
<GARY-S> Rochester, NY June 14-18
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (trying to mask look of shock)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> During the Conference no doubt.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah.
<GARY-S> It has been in DC, It has been on the west coast , this time Rochester
<GARY-S> NO - not during the conference - a week before !
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh. My ghod...people will have to go to Rochester twice 
in one month? That is cruel!
<GARY-S> Is that stunned silence ?
<GARY-S> Yeah - dumb I think !
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Stunned perhaps...silence...never! :-)
<HIGHC> better than in Feb!!!
<GARY-S> The ANS TC people are footing their own bills too...
<GARY-S> that's one reason I think we owe them the donation of our input...
<GARY-S> it's a simple enough consideration
<GARY-S> .
<GARY-S> You can still hit permafrost in June, NO PROB
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You'd think they'd force us to shut up.
<GARY-S> No - they want the input
<GARY-S> They need it to do their job?
<GARY-S> ANSI will not let the standard stand without input !
<VESTA> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Any style standardizations?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey Jax.
<GARY-S> And they require a period of arbitration after the final draft is 
submitted
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Took ya long enough.
<[jax] VESTA> he
<[jax] VESTA> y
<[jax] VESTA> .
<HIGHC> greetings
<GARY-S> why indeed
<GARY-S> I got that mess on DASNET - Geez !!!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Borlamd claims not to be working on Turbo FORTH! (A 
shocking announcement I am sure) :-)
<GARY-S> I coulda believed you - proof wasn't necessary
<[jax] VESTA> thought you would find it funny ... anyway, we are straightened 
out now.
<[jax] VESTA> WEINSTEIN ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeas?
<[jax] VESTA> the thing that kills me about UNIX email ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeas??
<[jax] VESTA> is that when you get a letter ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeas???
<[jax] VESTA> a simple   r    will reply alright ....
<[jax] VESTA> BUT TO THE WRONG ADDRESS>
<[jax] VESTA> >>>>!!!
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> hehehehhehehehehehhehehe
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Beats me. I usually use a Mailtool on a Sun for any kind 
of long distance mail.
<[jax] VESTA> So you logs on and plays with your tool?
<[jax] VESTA> ...:-)
<[jax] VESTA> .
<GARY-S> I'm real sure everyone has access to their very own SUN
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sure does. And I uses more MIPS to make my tools more 
powerful.
<[jax] VESTA> Have the xputer drop in for it yet?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No. Not my own. A sun at the Workstation facility at UT.
<[jax] VESTA> they make it ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not mine. If I owned it, I might.
<[jax] VESTA> up the street from my workplace.
<[jax] VESTA> .
<GARY-S> borrow a feww dozen
<[jax] VESTA> love to. back in the sixties ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Then send me one... hehehe
<GARY-S> nice boxes
<[jax] VESTA> we would say, let's "liberate" a few.
<[jax] VESTA> .
<GARY-S> comshaw in the Navy
<GARY-S> any response to the question of the nite ?
<[jax] VESTA> Yeah ... what is q of nite?
<GARY-S> on the door - you don't read the notice ?
<[jax] VESTA> I don't read notices as I stumble into a bar!
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I don't read anything as I stumble out.
<GARY-S> So how cum you're not contributing to the Standards discussion ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Fond remembernces of the party we held for a friend who 
graduated from High School yesterday)
<GARY-S> king's you
<[jax] VESTA> I do MORE than my share. They pobably wish I would shut up.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Then I should jump in and shout.
<GARY-S> No - they don't ..
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What do you think of state-smart words?
<[jax] VESTA> Too smart for their own good.
<GARY-S> I'm trying to coax (pry) dave into posting his comments...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHy?
<[jax] VESTA> ASCII should be state smart.
<GARY-S> in support of state-smart
<GARY-S> only in Colorado
<[jax] VESTA> I've never been crazy about EXIT having a dual meaning, tho.
<GARY-S> Do you like the others ?
<[jax] VESTA> Do you have a list on the tip of the tongue?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No I don't. But your real clothe. You jutht made a typo.
<GARY-S> The first that came to my mind was [']
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or ."
<[jax] VESTA> ....( Who is HIGHC and what do you think?)
<GARY-S> Jax - Bill
<GARY-S> Bill - Jack
<[jax] VESTA> Pleeztameecha.
<HIGHC> what the hell is  a smart word??
<[jax] VESTA> A word ..
<[jax] VESTA> that knows if you are compiling or interpreting
<GARY-S> Leonard starts the Novice FIGGY's July 10
<[jax] VESTA> and behaves differently in different company.
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Over a month away?
<[jax] VESTA> ...( there is a variable STATE in Forth ....)
<GARY-S> He wants to ride a train in Canada with his lady first
<[jax] VESTA> ... (set while compiling, off while interpreting(
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[jax] VESTA> Like I said on the BB ...
<HIGHC> were this original in the language??
<[jax] VESTA> What i hope the standards team does ...
<GARY-S> In the beginning there were not so many that knew the difference 
between compile and interpret.
<[jax] VESTA> is mostly NOTHING except free the standard from wordsize 
limitation.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> A long long time ago...in a MAINFRAME far far away..a 
strange creation took place.
<GARY-S> do you agree with the cell concept - or totally open concept ?
<[jax] VESTA> CELL.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Differentiate please (I'm falling behind in my jargon).
<GARY-S> What about crossing cell size boundaries
<GARY-S> 8 bit, 16, bit, 32 bit...ad infinitum, Dave
<[jax] VESTA> How about leave it open, except you are guaranteed that ther is a 
CEWLL.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <- Works with a standard 9 years old...don't ask me 
current questions? :-)
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'd say a 32 bit cell.
<[jax] VESTA> What do you see FORTH on , Dave?
<[jax] VESTA> CELL just means whatever the wordsize is on the box.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> FORTH chips. They are sooo fast. Probably the JH APL.
<[jax] VESTA> I mean, at work, what do you see it on.
<GARY-S> If you say 32-bit then in three years people are gonna ask ...
<[jax] VESTA> If at all.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> NO!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If you set it to box size...
<GARY-S> Why the heck didn't you consider the posibility of 64 bits...and so on
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> that means lots of machien specific code.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Efficiency.
<[jax] VESTA> Right, which is why CELL.
<[jax] VESTA> CELL is always there.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 32 bits gives a large addressing space, but doesn't hurt 
too much.
<[jax] VESTA> you don't have to know how big it is.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> will CELL return the word size in bits?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> You do in some applications.
<GARY-S> If ( correct me Jack ) you write for a cell size you can deal with 
your...
<GARY-S> own architecture ( limitation ) with some sort of prelude that...
<GARY-S> defines your implementation of CELLL
<GARY-S> got it ?
<[jax] VESTA> Nohuh?
<[jax] VESTA> ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not sure.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What does CELL put on the stack?
<[jax] VESTA> on a 32-banger  ... 4
<[jax] VESTA> on a 16 ... 2
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ok. Than I coukld live with it.
<[jax] VESTA> on a 64 .... 8
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> As long as it there is a way of determining.
<[jax] VESTA> Which means you can write WORDSIZE - INDEPENDENT code.
<[jax] VESTA> if you don't DEMAND byte addressing.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Will this mean a new set of words however. Will C! store 
1/2 of a CELL, and D! store two CELLS?
<[jax] VESTA> Sorta...JForth is 32 bits.
<GARY-S> and AA  a pen lite
<[jax] VESTA> ...  the word ! does a 32-bit store
<[jax] VESTA> ... and W! does 16, like C! does 8.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> D! does 64..
<[jax] VESTA> also W@ and W, are included, along with ALIGN which is in LP but 
is a no-op ...
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But does
<[jax] VESTA> in KERNEL86.BLK
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> this provide for higher CELLS. If we have a 64 bit CELL, 
we'd
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> have C -> 8, W -> 16, ! -> 32, D -> 64, ...?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or would it all shift right one?
<[jax] VESTA> no ...
<[jax] VESTA> if it was in 16 ...
<[jax] VESTA> ... ! should do a 64 LW! 32 W! 16 C! 8
<[jax] VESTA> jaxthinx!
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is a problem, no?
<GARY-S> That's how you get machine dependent problems which we need to resolve
<[jax] VESTA> Is [Bill] HIGHC near the Universtiy of New Hampshire?
<HIGHC> No near the u of Sherbrooke Que.!!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Then we get dependent.
<[jax] VESTA> SHERBROOKE! a cute little town. Stayed in the Dorms in august 
once.
<GARY-S> Why are you in Ft. Valley, GA if your home is Austin, Dave or is that 
personal ?
<HIGHC> Cute little ladies too!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What about a word like !! which takes the stack arguments 
( value address size-of-value -- )
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> and @@
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I live in Austin. GEnie just doesn't thinik so.
<GARY-S> Thanks - confused me - what about your buddy that also had a Ft Valley 
Status
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Relative.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Parental Unit.
<GARY-S> all things are
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Only way to keep in touch over 2000 miles.
<[jax] VESTA> Toutes les quebecoise sont ingenieuses ...
<[jax] VESTA> .
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ANy thoughts on !!, Jax?
<[jax] VESTA> Gesundheit.
<[jax] VESTA> .
<HIGHC> Oui!!!
<GARY-S> any way - are you now more involved in the standard ?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Me?
<[jax] VESTA> you.
<GARY-S> sure
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah. Why not.
<GARY-S> good - I7ve done my job
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> NO WHAT DO YOU THINK OF !! OR I'LL STAY IN ALL CAPS 
FOREVER!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> +W
<GARY-S> Write it
<[jax] VESTA> I think you should post it to the standards discussion for the 
Beeg Boys to kick around.
<GARY-S> : !! what
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Stack description:
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ( value address size-of-value -- ) ( stores value as a 
size-of-value size chunk at address )
<[jax] VESTA> HIGHC ... you go to U Sherbrooke?
<GARY-S> that's exactly what you need to post in cat 10
<HIGHC> No...SMU>>>
<[jax] VESTA> There is a form for proposals ... where is it, Gary?
<GARY-S> another Texican !
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeehaww!
<[jax] VESTA> What study?
<GARY-S> Greg never put it in the library - It's being modified...
<[jax] VESTA> What computers, too?
<HIGHC> Partying!!!
<GARY-S> just follow the format Lee Brotzman uses
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Which is?
<[jax] VESTA> oThe format Lee uses ..
<[jax] VESTA> is to bash them over the head with so many proposals they get 
dizzy! :-)
<GARY-S> Lee has several proposals posted - check one of them for style - it's 
good
<[jax] VESTA> .
<GARY-S> Lee is the only one who is going to get a lot of his ideas considered..