Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 06/03/90   Time: 21:02EDT
Attendees:
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[APPERT]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]

Minutes:
<APPERT> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi Kev!
<APPERT> Hi. How does one get good sex? you said ask anything
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> beg for it? and I said I'd answer :-)
<APPERT> reminds me of dan feilding on "Night Court"
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he must be desperate too
<APPERT> he met this woman one time...
<W.BADEN1> is here.
<APPERT> said "you must be the kind ...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi wil
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Hi Kevin, Dennis.
<APPERT> of desperate , sniviling weak slime... who would do anything
                    for a woman"
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, my kind of man <grin>
<APPERT> hi wil.  he said " why how could you misjudge me so " she
                    said " too bad "
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> abviously the wrong come back
<APPERT> " just what I was looking for" later, after they had made
                    arrangements to get together... she said, " and be
                    punctual, I punish for tardiness"... Dan turns
                    around and makes an "all right" motion from Night
                    Court, Wil.  \
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yea! punishment...sounds better all the time
                    <snicker>
<APPERT> what's new Wil?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> What is "Night Court"?
<APPERT> TV
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do we have anything about Forth to talk about?
<APPERT> sitcom about a ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Ah.  Sorry, I don't have one.
<APPERT> booking court in N.Y.C. good for you. safe from brain rot
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I wouldn't have time for Forth or even a profane
                    language if I had.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you are finding time for Forth now Wil?
<APPERT> have you heard about the... object-oriented extensions to
                    LISP ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I still compare algorithms in several languages.
<APPERT> lots of people are excited about?  (straight line prompt)
                    >>>>
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> XLISP, Allegro?
<APPERT> they call it THMALLTALK (no kidding, they really do)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well that's unique! :-)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> That's great.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I though Lisp already had OO stuff built in
<APPERT> nope, needs extensions] is writing in profane language
                    profanity, Wil?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> No.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Lisp is one of those that I bypassed while
                    learning Forth
<APPERT> :-)
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> -- communication.
<APPERT> ouch.  how right.  how true
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so, Kev, have you seen these extensions to Lisp?
<APPERT> Forth is a language for communication with a computer.  Most
                    languages these days seem bent on the goal of
                    communicating with other people first, computer
                    second. Dennis, nope, just read a short article in
                    one of the trade freebies.  don't recall the title
                    but I checked and it wasn't the april 1 issue
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, the computer is merely the medium we choose
                    to use the goal is communicating with ourselves
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I've come across a marvelous new language. I ordered
                    the 1989 book about it, but it's already being
                    reprinted.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes? and it is called?
<APPERT> what's it called, Wil?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It's intended for the Basic arena, but it's easier,
                    clearer, shorter. It reminds me of Pascal, APL,
                    and Hypertalk, only better. It is implemented in
                    Unix, and PC, and Atari, and Mac. It's ABC - an
                    alternative simple language for microprocessors.
                    It's the easiest language and the most powerful
                    I've ever used.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what does ABC stand for if anything?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Nothing.  References: The ABC Programmers Handbook,
                    Prentiss Hall 1989. Computer Software(IEEE) Jan
                    1987.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sounds interesting...and it's easier that Forth?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Source is available on Unix. Yes.
<APPERT>  where source available?  in what?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It has five basic types, strong type checking but no
                    declartions.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if on Unix, what's it implemented in?  C?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> C for unix.  I've not seen PC or Mac Source. If you
                    type W it echoes W?RITE and you can continue or
                    hit tab. If you then type H it changes echo to
                    WH?ILE. It automatically indents structures.
                    Extra return outdent. I'm anxiously waiting for
                    the book. It's interpretive (of course) so it's
                    not intended for system application.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> It sounds like one of those languages that is so
                    powerful, that it is difficult to make it doe
                    something not orginally designed in
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> It has a very primitive structure. An example
                    HOW TO RETURN factorial n
                        IF n <= 1
                           RETURN 1
                        RETURN n*factorial(n-1)
                    Case changes are done by editor. ga.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, recursion is buit right in...that's nice
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Or ...
                     HOW TO RETURN factorial n
                        PUT 1 IN result
                        FOR i IN {1..n}
                           PUT i*result IN result
                        RETURN result
                    You type H, it echoes HOW TO ?

<<<< Slight interruption by kids picking up phone >>>>

<APPERT> I was told once not to use the G word
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Are you in GTE land, DaR?
<APPERT> hellow Watson
<D.RUFFER> no, my daughter picked up the phone I just hope the steno
                    survived
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I apologize, Sylvania.
<D.RUFFER> that was some good stuff, and I'd hate to loose it
<APPERT> I have it.
<D.RUFFER> good, I'll let you know if I need it
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Just wait. I've done a lot without any documentation.
<D.RUFFER> most of the times, the steno is automatically mailed on a
                    disconnect, but sometimes they mess up
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The five types are: number, text, compound, list,
                    table.
<D.RUFFER> that's ok Wil, from what you showed us it loks neat
<APPERT> do you have a version of this to use?  is there one on GEnie?
<D.RUFFER> is it a pd language?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I use MacABC (on the Mac) and abc on unix.
<APPERT> where does one get source?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Yes, it's pd. Unix.
<D.RUFFER> just a sec, I'll go check the PC library brb
<APPERT> do you mean USENET?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I had our unix expert get the source, and I compiled
                    on Sun workstation. I think so.
<D.RUFFER> nope, it's not there unless it has something other than abc
                    in its name
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> I have it.  Stand by.
<APPERT> anything new with you Dennis?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Sorry, just the mail address.
<D.RUFFER> nothing really...getting into standard stuff recently
                    though
<APPERT> standard = ANSI  >  ?
<D.RUFFER> yes, went to the meeting in Florida
<APPERT> your nickle?
<D.RUFFER> no, Forth, Inc's
<APPERT> it's an all CA night at the FIGGIE BAR tonight
<D.RUFFER> Dean wasn't available, so I was (er) appointed yea, not
                    even any newbies :-)
<APPERT> I was asking before, is it possible to extend an invite to
                    passers by who just 'joined' the conferance via
                    email?
<D.RUFFER> yes, I can do some group mail on the people who have
                    stopped by I haven't yet due to the bad feeling
                    "junk mail" can generate
<APPERT> hmmmmmmmm  you may be right
<D.RUFFER> we do announce them on the front door so everybody sees
                    them and special guests get announced in the GEnie
                    front door people can't say they haven't heard and
                    I don't like to keep hounding them
<APPERT> I suppose so.  I'm suprised we don't get more beginners here.
<D.RUFFER> What I'd really like to do is get some classes going I have
                    an opening for a teacher over in the CALC RT but I
                    need a teacher to do it
<APPERT> maybe we need teh equivalant of the famous BYTE Forth issue.
<D.RUFFER> I'm not sure that would have the same impact anymore before
                    '80 not many had heard of Forth now, most have
                    heard, and just don't care
<APPERT> well, dinner is ready.  gotta scoot.  send mail if you want
                    my log file. 'night has left.
<D.RUFFER> will do thanks kev well just us Wil anything more you want
                    to say about abc?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> So tell more about ANSI.
<D.RUFFER> well, they passed a bunch of proposals made " state smart
                    and added catch and throw for error control
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> (I'll probably be doing much about abc.) Well, one
                    out of three aint bad.
<D.RUFFER> which one?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> For years I've jested about Forth versus profane
                    languages -- languages "outside of the temple" of
                    Forth. Now I see the profanation of Forth.
<D.RUFFER> yes? how so?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> THROW and CATCH or any such is impossible without
                    knowing the size of context (not CONTEXT). How can
                    you save the stack when you don't know how many of
                    its values are where?
<D.RUFFER> I don't remember the actual mechanics of it, but I agree
                    that it doesn't look too safe either
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Of course, you can introduce a word  defined     n
                    CONSTANT ENVIRONMENT with n appropriate for the
                    system, and then say RESTART CREATE ENVIRONMENT
                    for each context. The thing that is getting lost
                    is that for is a language for applications. Forth
                    does not have fancy data structures becuz most
                    Forth applications don't need them.
<D.RUFFER> If I remember right, all the mechanism does is allow you to
                    jump out of a bunch a nesting, and pass a
                    parameter back up.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> What is getting confused is the language, and the
                    programming environment.
<D.RUFFER> it was justified, since they took out RP@, RP! and SP@ ,
                    SP!
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The sample code I've seen presumes at most one value
                    to be saved.
<D.RUFFER> I have to agree with them, that most applications do need
                    some kind of error control I think they need both
                    the return and the parameter stak pointers saved
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> All arguments against RP@ RP! SP@ SP! apply to THROW
                    and CATCH. Not good enuf.
<D.RUFFER> they did require the words RP and SP stuff that is
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> They must also preserve whatever of the stack is not
                    in a register.
<D.RUFFER> No, the stack contents are not guarenteed we had to go to a
                    lot of trouble changing the documentation to show
                    just how bad it could become
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Novix kept 1 value of RS in a register, JohnsHopkins,
                    4 (I think).
<D.RUFFER> all that is preserved, is the stack pointer the contents
                    are not guarenteed well, dinners on the table
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> You cannot just save stack pointers if some of the
                    stack is not pointed to.
<D.RUFFER> I agree that it can be dangurous, some thought it was
                    essential
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Impossible.
<D.RUFFER> yea, that is a term also :-) well, gotta go
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> bye, DaR.
<D.RUFFER> see ya later Wil have a good night!
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> has left.
=== End of Steno notes. ===