Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference. >From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe Date: 05/29/88 Time: 22:17EDT Attendees: [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[jax] VESTA> <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> <[Gary] GARY-S> <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Minutes: is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hello dave <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hello <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what's happening tonight? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have a contestant for Leonard's bad FORTH contets... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (one line) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ZERO CONSTANT 37 <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ERR <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> 37 CONSTANT ZERO <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (RPN TO RPN TO RPN CONVERSION) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Also thought about redefining primitives in the code, and <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> never telling anyone... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Guaranteed to screw with people's minds! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) Did you forget the "." at the end? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I heard FORTH, Inc did that once... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or rather, they changed all the names that is... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> was supposed to be an absolutely secure program... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> How to give programmers breakdowns <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and even the programmers couldn't figure it out after a <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> while. :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is deadly. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> But job security! :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well you showed up tonight... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If no one else can read your code... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I've showed up for the last three. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you show up Thursday also? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah..that's what I meant.. SunThuSun <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Oh!... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> If it comes down to it...I'd rather have it on Thursday... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> there are too many good RTCs on Sunday nights <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm just here to see who shows up.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it's a hot sticky evening that I don't feel like doing <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> anything better <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> That is a perverse reason for coming... :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its hot rainy and humid here... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Austin) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ug <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ug? why ug? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well I'll soon have air conditioning... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I can get out of this muggyness... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Aaahhh. I have AC and Ceiling Fans...and ABP Apartment! :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ABP? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> All Bills Paid <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ditto for me next month! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> i.e. high rent but no monthly surprises that can bust the <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> bank <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And the way I eat electricity.... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> mine will be week to week, is your's also <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Nope...12 month lease <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> staying for awhile uh? is here. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey...I have a good job..and an education to aquire (or at <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> least fake it well and endure the PASCAL/Modula type <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> courses) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey jax <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well jacks here too! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> education in Pascal dave? <[jax] VESTA> usual gang of idiots! :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> da yup! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have a CS department that thinks Wirth is ghod... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So I am naturally pounding the doors in trying to get a <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> FORTH course offered. And watching the people taking the <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Graphics course and learning C at the same time. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Their antics are downright funny...! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> They have been under the impression that PASCAL was a real <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> language for so long...that C blew their minds! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> before we get into anything REALLY serious.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> jack and dave, you are the regulars... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if you want to meet on Sundays, then be our guests... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I will try to make it, but let's leave this one... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to a really free format.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> even more so than thursday night... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if one of us sysops shows up, then great... <[jax] VESTA> matter of opinion! ;-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we'd do the the meeting leader stuff, and get steno notes <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> , but... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if we don't, (you'd all be happier I know :-)... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then do your own thing.... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> we do anyway <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if I know it will happen before 5:00 on Friday.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can get someone else, like Jack maybe :-0 <[jax] VESTA> foo. The FIG bar is under attack, and you are sounding retreat! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you can be leader tooo! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What is wrong with two meetings? <[jax] VESTA> or three? <[jax] VESTA> manpower. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> nothing really dave, just time. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or seven? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> . <[jax] VESTA> Well, if the sysops don't have enough time ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hey, anytime you want to do one... <[jax] VESTA> more sysops? <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> yeasss <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> is this a demented plea for help? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> all you have to do is start one yourself... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> help is not the problem... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> revenue is..... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they won't let us have unlimitted sysop accounts... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Sure...sit in the RTC burning up time ...until someone <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> shows up out of curiousity? <[jax] VESTA> ...???? The GEnie gorilla wants a banana? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHy not...? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> internal accounts cost them money.... <[jax] VESTA> BS <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> because, you should know, they are free. <[jax] VESTA> Of course. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ahhh...yes...free time <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we don't pay to help you guys... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Beancounters!!. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they pay us to get you to use GEnie <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oohhhh...and they don't want freebees for everyone. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if you can justify it on your own nickel <[jax] VESTA> so that they make money. Good system, but what if the board needs <[jax] VESTA> service. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what service you talking about? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> "The personal touch" <[jax] VESTA> Well, like hosted confs on sunday night? <[jax] VESTA> I won't be free on thursday for several weeks. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Or tuesday...or wednesday... :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hey, I can set you up to do it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anybody can be meeting leader... <[jax] VESTA> ...? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ditto <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I just have to set it up before 5:00 on weekdays <[jax] VESTA> "who was king? who was not king?" <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we have 3 "rooms", and I have a file... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that decides who is the "meeting leader"... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the ml has additional commands in here to set things up... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hmmnn. The inner workings of GEnie revealed! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> like the notices and the steno notes... <[jax] VESTA> Such as they are ... <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can set any user number into the file... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or at least I'm supposed to be able to... is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> last time I tried, I couldn't get at it... <[jax] VESTA> The savidge is restless tonite! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey JT Greetings <[jax] VESTA> We're back to normal topic ... GEnie... <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Have I had the pleasure? guessing <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> such as it is <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> . <[jax] VESTA> Who has logged on to ECFB lately? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ECFB? <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> ditto? <[jax] VESTA> East Coast Forth Board <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Not me..Central Texas <[jax] VESTA> mclean va., 703-442-8695 <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gee are these REAL GEnie users? <[jax] VESTA> the only kind! :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> No but we play them on TV! <[jax] VESTA> GEnie has its advantages. <[jax] VESTA> about two of them. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> which 2? <[jax] VESTA> may users, many nodes. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh those 2... <[jax] VESTA> many users, make that <[jax] VESTA> . <[jax] VESTA> ANYWAY ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, I'm pushing them to open up even more nodes... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> I thought it was "2" users. <[jax] VESTA> ECFB is flaming me/us about the level of our discussion here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what? tell me more! <[jax] VESTA> They think we're the "elite" of Forth and that Forth is in <[jax] VESTA> trouble ... :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Buffer On!) <[jax] VESTA> I said, "Why don't you log on if you don't like it" <[jax] VESTA> NO ANSWER yet. <[jax] VESTA> Jerry S. Thinks we're pretty funny, tho. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Forth is in trouble cause we're here????? <[jax] VESTA> You won't believe ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The level here is higher (or at least much more active) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> than it is on Usenet..and Usenet tends to get <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> techno real fast! <[jax] VESTA> the ridiculous discussions i get into on ECFB ... <[jax] VESTA> ... ( well maybe, since you know me ...) <[jax] VESTA> but those people are really predjudiced ... <[jax] VESTA> against Forth! <[jax] VESTA> I say things like ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> A FORTH board prejuidiced against FORTH??!!?? <[jax] VESTA> " SInce Forth is broken down in smaller bits already ... <[jax] VESTA> it will be easier to reshape it for parallel ... <[jax] VESTA> " and they jump down my throat. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Why? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> brb <[jax] VESTA> I say it would be nice if FORTH had environment extensions like <[jax] VESTA> UNIX, such as BBS es ... <[jax] VESTA> and they ask "Why, if UNIX already has it?" <[jax] VESTA> FOO. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are they against you or us jack <[jax] VESTA> Mostly me, because I have a big mouth ... <[jax] VESTA> and lots of ideas ... <[jax] VESTA> but they seem to think our discussion here are lame. <[jax] VESTA> Why don't more folks log on? I told them ... <[jax] VESTA> about the Johns Hopkins folks logging on the VERY NIGHT ... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Parallel is lame????? <[jax] VESTA> they got their first 32bangers back from the sawmill ... <[jax] VESTA> if THAT ain't an excuse for a realtime conf, what is? <[jax] VESTA> That may be the key ... <[jax] VESTA> GUESTS EVERY WEEK! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> an idea <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but I can't do it right now :-( <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but anyone else can... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I just can't cover the cost just yet. <[jax] VESTA> ...? what cost. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> on-line charges for the leader. <[jax] VESTA> ...? explique, por favor. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> uh? <[jax] VESTA> JT ... no, they just think they know it all about parallel. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Forth man not French! <[jax] VESTA> What is the "on-line charge for leader?" <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> just the normal $5/hour <[jax] VESTA> JT They think its funny i want to put parallel FORTH on the <[jax] VESTA> xputer in BLOCKS. <[jax] VESTA> Thought you were free den. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I AM, and the other sysops are... <[jax] VESTA> and you're burning it up too fast? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but that doesn't mean someone else can't hold <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> a conference on their own nickel <[jax] VESTA> Try to get guests on under those conditions! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, essentually, our time is subtracted from our <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> revenue and that is not growing.. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> guests are really no problem either... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we can get "guest" accounts for them... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and again, they don't pay connect time. <[jax] VESTA> What is the balance of trade on FIG RT these days? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you mean how much money are we making? <[jax] VESTA> yup. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, I haven't been spreading the word recently... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but.... <[jax] VESTA> Get your steno pads ready! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we are holding pretty steady..... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> at....:-) <[jax] VESTA> WHAT WHAT??? COME ON MAN! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> about $100 a month (here come the SS :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> For the whole SIG? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes <[jax] VESTA> ONE HUNDRED CLAMS A MONTH? I'm surprised ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Or your personal cut? <[jax] VESTA> GE doesn't throw us off. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> our percentage of the usage <[jax] VESTA> That isn't chump change to GEnie. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> your right jack <[jax] VESTA> So how much are you lazy sysops burning? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we are sitting about 25th on their lists <[jax] VESTA> from bottom? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> from the top! <[jax] VESTA> Huh? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> How many RTs are there? <[jax] VESTA> I thought an RT made about $600/mo or died. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the sysops spen about 1 hour for every 4 you guys do <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is too much for us to do.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think there are about 75 RTs <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Well hell...you're not doing too badly then! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes they have been asking when we'd get up to our <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> projections <[jax] VESTA> Which was? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we only have about 200 of our 2500 members <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and only about 20 use us per day... <[jax] VESTA> same 20, no doubt. Jax, ATFURMAN, DANMILLER .... <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So you have a few "regulars"...and that's it <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is far below what we hoped for <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that's all folks! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can't tell names jack... <[jax] VESTA> So why don't you start a mailing to every college compscidept in <[jax] VESTA> america? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Because CS dept.s are not terribly fond of FORTH (at least <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> in my experience) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> except in the BB, good idea jack <[jax] VESTA> SOMEONE must wonder what all these FORTHchips are doing coming <[jax] VESTA> out these days! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but yes, that too cost money.... <[jax] VESTA> So FIG could start a fundraiser. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and FIG isn't known for spending a lot of money. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> fundraiser (how for what?) <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Up until ther 8800, the forth chips were the finest <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> examples of the Harvard Artecure. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[jax] VESTA> For FORTH publicity, college outreaches, public education. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> That's the first I heard that one James. <[jax] VESTA> Maybe we should go on strike? <[jax] VESTA> ... :-) <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but but what will they do then? <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> excuse me the 88000, from Moterola <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and who would care! :-( <[jax] VESTA> we understood <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ohh...whew...thhought you were talking about VAXes.. <[jax] VESTA> We would get in the press :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've heard of the 88000 James, but Forth and Harvard? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Vax = Risc (to the -1) <[jax] VESTA> TING says FORTH is CISC. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> somewhere in between <[jax] VESTA> ANYway ... <[jax] VESTA> The neat thing about FORTH these days ... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> The Novix chip is designed around the "Harvard" <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> arcectecure. <[jax] VESTA> is that it has broadened out so much in application and hardware . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is? <[jax] VESTA> that there really isn't a corner of the Known Computing Univers .. <[jax] VESTA> that we don't have SOME kind of a toehold ... <[jax] VESTA> From Mainframes to Sun WOrkstations to Micros to COntrollers ... <[jax] VESTA> FORTH IS THERE, and YOU are THERE with it! :-) <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, and the ads are comeing... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeah...From what I've heard..is that Sun uses FORTH <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> extensively. <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Am I wrong about the Novix design folks? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think the word is spreading now <[jax] VESTA> We don't know enough to tell, JT! :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we still need a Microsoft or Borland Forth :-) <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> As I understand...the Novix is massively Powerful..and <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> since it operates in under 1 clock cycle.. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> =I'd guess that makes it RISC. <[jax] VESTA> What is meanink Harvard Arkitekchur, comrade3 <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Harvard arch... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Seperate busses for each part. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> says that the program and data are seperated... <[jax] VESTA> that's cute ... kissing a microprocessor. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I don't really think the novix fits that. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It has multiple busses (5 I think) <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> Dennis The Novix can seperate data and programs. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I guess it does have seperated (almost) paths <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the program can only ocupy the lower half... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> It can only make code Jumps <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and the data gets the top is that right? <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> in the lower 64k. data can be above that. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but that is not TRUE Harvard <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> explain? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> where you can do both accesses at the same time. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you can access data and program in the same cycle <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Be back in a bit (or at least on Thurs) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> .exi <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left. <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> The Novix can do that because of the bussing and parellel <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> execution. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> uhm, it might be close then... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I just hadn't heard it called that way yet <[jax] VESTA> Brainstorm! <[jax] VESTA> FIG needs a promotional genius to take an interest in Forth! <[jax] VESTA> endBrainstorm> <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> It can do a fetch of an address and do a return <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> instruction at the same time, for example. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that's it James, I guess they have it! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jack <[jax] VESTA> yes, dennis? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> FIG has been looking for (needing) a publisists... <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> later folks. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for as long as I've been involved <[jax] VESTA> bye guy ... thandx <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> buy James <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I mean bye James :-) <[jax] VESTA> good lck with parallel! <[jax] VESTA> let us know!!!! <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> ok jax <[James] J.T.SAVIDGE> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jack, you know of a good publisists? <[jax] VESTA> you were saying <[jax] VESTA> yes. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> who? <[jax] VESTA> I have written three articles in three months. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh you mean you? <[jax] VESTA> Why not? You know any stauncher FORTH advocate? <[jax] VESTA> If we had a little money ... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well have I got a deal for you! <[jax] VESTA> to promote on campus ... <[jax] VESTA> you would see quite a trunaround. <[jax] VESTA> . <[jax] VESTA> deal? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how would you like to join the FIG troups? <[jax] VESTA> I have a job. What do you infer, sirrah? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well... <[jax] VESTA> a deep subject <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we are just about to fire up a nominating comitee <[jax] VESTA> at the stake? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to replace Martin and Bob on the Board is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are you interested in volunteering? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> For what? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> welcome back dave <[jax] VESTA> What are Martin & Bob's jobs currently? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey. Dropped by another RTC...was boring...came back. <[jax] VESTA> I am not in California any more, either! <[jax] VESTA> Sounds interesting, tho. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Martin is tresurer, and Bob is president, but... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we would be electing new ones among the entire board... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we will be (maybe) electing 2 more people however... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I can pass the recommendation along if you want to do <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it. <[jax] VESTA> "I accept the draft of my party" :-)[A is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well <[jax] VESTA> latecomer! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> gary and dave... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey Gary...took ya long enough <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeasss <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jack has just agreed to be a FIG nominee. <[Gary] GARY-S> I live in the ozarks - remember ? <[jax] VESTA> for what, though ...? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> just to be on the board for now jack... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if you are elected.... <[jax] VESTA> I'm board enouff as it is :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you will get to "volunteer" for what you think... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> needs to be done :-) <[jax] VESTA> No, I understood, dennis, thanks. Sounds like a good idea. <[jax] VESTA> Volunteer for Ministry of Propaganda. <[Gary] GARY-S> oh mi gawd ! - what jax thinks ?? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> making a note :-) <[jax] VESTA> FORTH UBER ALLES! <[Gary] GARY-S> !! <[jax] VESTA> Let's round up C programmers for "re-education" camps. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey watch it! I make my living programming in C! <[jax] VESTA> You call that living? <[Gary] GARY-S> Scuse - but what did we just elect Darth Jax to ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Itsmy second favorite language (maybe third) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but do you need an education? :_) is here. <[jax] VESTA> It's my third after 4th and Prolog. <[jax] VESTA> I really appreciate C for wahat it is. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> even leonard made it oh my <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Forth, maybe assembly or Lisp, then C <[jax] VESTA> A nuisance. <[jax] VESTA> Hi Leonard. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Hi <[Gary] GARY-S> hello - what is Jax gonna do ???? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey Leonard <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I just asked if jack wanted to volunteer... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to be nominated to the FIG board of Directors... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> this just means he might get on the ballot... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the nominating committee still has to be formed... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and they have to pick him... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> H]I! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yeehaw! Flood Warnings going up just south of here! <[Gary] GARY-S> who's resigning ? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And reaching me <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and then he would have to be elected... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> get the boats out dave! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Martin and Bob Gary! <[jax] VESTA> Take your Chevy to the levy? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Heh.. I'm on the second floor <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its dry <[jax] VESTA> Or is Levy out of town with Cohen? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> or was dry <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no problem then right? :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> Hmm - that's a surprise ! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> end of their terms gary <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 3 years is enough! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[Gary] GARY-S> shoot them ! or do they get pastured ? <[jax] VESTA> exiled. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we're REAL informal leonard but ga anyway <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> ok <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Jax would be good. ... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Shake them up a little! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yup :-) <[jax] VESTA> put the fear of the rabble in them! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> A lot! <[Gary] GARY-S> another lousey 'YES' man - for sure ! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Jax is no Yes man... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> He can't even agree with himself! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Gary] GARY-S> that milk sop - never agitates <[jax] VESTA> <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is it pick on jack time? uh? <[Gary] GARY-S> wus is the word <[jax] VESTA> Well, len, you know ... thtwo jews, three opinions <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Seriously, they need a change of direction... <[Gary] GARY-S> oiy vay <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> but I don't know which way... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we're working on it! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Certainly the people work very hard. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> <[jax] VESTA> campaign speech time? <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sure! <[jax] VESTA> <[jax] VESTA> What FORTH professionals and amateurs are up against ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> My boss? <[jax] VESTA> Is a massive, well-financed publicity campaign ... <[jax] VESTA> by AT&T, SUN, IBM, Open System etc ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And FORTRAN hacks <[jax] VESTA> to convince the computer service consumer ... <[jax] VESTA> that UNIX is the be-all and end-all of the computational universe. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> UNIX is nice <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Big...but nice <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Fun to work in <[jax] VESTA> Couple that with the emphasis on formal language descriptions in <[jax] VESTA> college. ... <[Gary] GARY-S> so is donald duck, dave <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[jax] VESTA> and you have a very negative atmosfere for the FORTH ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey. If you gotta use a "standard" OS...UNIX is *my* choice <[jax] VESTA> So FIG should maybe not be the leader .... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> rolling on the floor jump in anytime leonard :-) <[jax] VESTA> but should certainly encourage ... <[jax] VESTA> the disemination of free forth compilers on campus ... <[jax] VESTA> forth seminars on campus ... <[jax] VESTA> and forth publicity in the trade journals. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> good idea ( again ) Jack <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I have been pushing FORTH on campus <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Is pushing FORTH like pushing drugs?) <[jax] VESTA> Yes. Like pushing anything ... <[Gary] GARY-S> The cs department here won't even hear about Forth <[jax] VESTA> You gotta make em WANT it . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> same dealers? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Ditto <[jax] VESTA> IBM is pushing a drug called OS/2 <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> One problem with Forth is that it's a ... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[jax] VESTA> FORTH is a more rational 32bit opsys <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Its big fat, and poorly assembled <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> heavy drugs now! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> OS/2 <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> small computer laguage, and... <[Gary] GARY-S> get this - the ACM here actually hated to have me as a maember <[Gary] GARY-S> becaause of my Forthish attitude <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> CS departments don't have much interest in them... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hey--I'm joining ACM this week to get involved in FSIGForth <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> They are into mainframes. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> , <[jax] VESTA> LEN ... <[jax] VESTA> What about the FORTH mainframes in Europe? .... <[jax] VESTA> What about 32-bit FORTHS in America? <[jax] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> Dave - what do you suggest I do - the local ACM disbanded <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> still can't compete with OS/2 or UNIX <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hmmn. Dunno. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> What about the FORTH under Unix group <[jax] VESTA> Yeah! <[jax] VESTA> Paul Thomas! Yeah! <[jax] VESTA> Rah! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> Maybe one of you Texicans can invite a ARKIE guest to the <[Gary] GARY-S> Austin Party ??? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Unix is my favorite straight OS...and FORTH my favorite <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Language. What a combination. <[jax] VESTA> Unix is a hack. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> They are in Europe, not here! <[jax] VESTA> Yet! Besides.... <[jax] VESTA> the new japanese 5th gen is in FORTH! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> All large OSes are hacks <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[jax] VESTA> True, DW. <[jax] VESTA> But FORTH would be cleaner and more rational. <[jax] VESTA> , <[jax] VESTA> ga len? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> ok <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Unix is full of features. To write something... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So will the Sysv.5 rewrite...C++ is a good language, and <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> it is a 12 person team. Unix has had too many cooks. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> like that in Forht would take... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> man-years, and there aren't enough of us. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> <[jax] VESTA> Yet. <[jax] VESTA> . <[Gary] GARY-S> <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we CAN design it. <[Gary] GARY-S> Theres always nice tight Ada <[Gary] GARY-S> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Too tight...like a straight jacket <[Gary] GARY-S> 28 volumes is a pretty serious user guide too <[jax] VESTA> <[jax] VESTA> One great thing about FORTH ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Seriously folks. Unix had a lot of very good ideas. It has <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> grown too fast recently. It has too be trimmed. And <[jax] VESTA> is that the library of literature ... <[jax] VESTA> is about 30 books, then you know everything! :-) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> the UNIX "wizards" are worried that it won't be (hot from <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> comp.unix.wizards on Usenet) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It is a very nice system to work under. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> And we'll never pry the scientists aeay from FORTRAN. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Fortran has been polished for engineering... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> computations, etc. and would be hard to beat... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> in any language. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> <[jax] VESTA> Len, have you used EFL? Great front end for Fortran 77. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> What is EFL? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> EFL ... <[jax] VESTA> Used to stand for Extended Fortran Lang. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> At work..90% of the programmers know only FORTRAN. The <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> other 10% know another language. <[jax] VESTA> It's really a precompiler/language ... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Like RATFOR? <[jax] VESTA> That allows structures, etc. like C ... RATFOR is subset of EFL. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Has it got a source debugger...debugging code that comes <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> out of a preprocessor is hell? <[jax] VESTA> EFL comes out in neat, pretty f77. Compile it immediately or look <[jax] VESTA> at it. <[jax] VESTA> Code output works with UNIX symbdeb tools. <[jax] VESTA> . <[jax] VESTA> Should be on your machine. cHeck it out, DW. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Also..some of the libraries are pure shit. SoI am trying <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> to clean it up as I expand it...but it is pretty abysmal. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hey are we talking FORTRAN in the FIGGY BAR? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I don't think it is on the Alliant...I use FORTRAN and C <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> intermixed in debugging (the underlying routines I write <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> are in C, the test code is in FORTRAN) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it must be after hours :-) <[jax] VESTA> Why not? It is the spiritual antecedent of FORTH. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> uh? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Huh? <[jax] VESTA> <[Gary] GARY-S> no way <[jax] VESTA> MOORE said ... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[jax] VESTA> he got the idea for FORTH ... <[jax] VESTA> When he tipped over his third tray of FORTRAN cards! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> I look on Fortran Basic, C etc as... <[Gary] GARY-S> how cum the first shot was in Algol then ? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> variations of the same language. Forth... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he WAS using Fortran at the time! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> really is a different language! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> Agree, len. FORTH is different from everything. Like jax :-) <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Besides...UNIX looks great compared to some alternatives... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> like NOS. <[Gary] GARY-S> Ther is NOTHIN' threaded about FORTRAN <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> What is NOS? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The operating system used on the Cyber 180 series. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Jax, <[jax] VESTA> music maestro please ... "When It's Laundry Time In The Rockies" <[jax] VESTA> yes len? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> You mentioned the BNF parser <[jax] VESTA> good work. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> I have used it to construct a file filter... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> and also the parse numbers, and Basic expressions. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[jax] VESTA> ..?? BASIC? Say on! <[jax] VESTA> ( friend is writing a BASIC in FORTH) <[jax] VESTA> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Just as a test of how it could be done. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> WHy? <[jax] VESTA> Hey dave, <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> yeaassss <[jax] VESTA> BASIC is STILL BIG TIME in controllers ( yuch) <[jax] VESTA> but true! <[jax] VESTA> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Arrgghhh! WHy??? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it's on chip! <[jax] VESTA> Every 40 year old engineer knows it. <[Gary] GARY-S> jax - did you get my dasnet reply ? <[jax] VESTA> negatory gary ... couldn't get jjwavrick, either. Mail came back. <[jax] VESTA> when did you send? <[Gary] GARY-S> Friday - I think <[jax] VESTA> Ok, I'll check my mail tonite on the well <[jax] VESTA> LEN ... post your basic interpreter! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> I'll have to polish it. It uses symbols like... <[Gary] GARY-S> which BAS@S!is it closest to. Len ? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> the old North Star Basic. <[jax] VESTA> Ok, it's agreed theN? I'm elected king of FORTH and get to cut <[jax] VESTA> all your heads off? Gotta go do the laundry, <[Gary] GARY-S> that's almost CBASIC - right ? <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> It wasn't intended to be serisous. <[jax] VESTA> bye gang. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sure thing jack! <[jax] VESTA> goodnite. .... for a conference that wasn't supposed to be ... <[jax] VESTA> this was a great congerence/ Maybe we should ... <[jax] VESTA> cancel them all and then EVERYBODY would come! <[jax] VESTA> has left. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> wait'll DR tries to edit this thing ! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes gary and len... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> jack dave and I... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> decided to leave this open... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> as an even more free for all... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> than thursday is... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> free??? its $5/hour <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that's why I wasn't doing the ga's <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but, if we can't make it.... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Besides...we get to heckle <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> :-) <[Gary] GARY-S> answer my question aout a Texican invite Dave <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they can handle it themselves. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> yes... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (Go ahead Gary) <[Gary] GARY-S> I said since the local ACM disbanded I may have to finagle... <[Gary] GARY-S> a Texican invite to the Austin Party <[Gary] GARY-S> ... <[Gary] GARY-S> will you take in an arkie ? <[Gary] GARY-S> . <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> I'll ask. Course I should Join first. The ACM is supposed <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> to fairly well disposed to me...I gave them 5000! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> factorial in laser printout (giving Lisp machines <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> breakdowns is my hobby) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> :-) <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> How many zeroes at the end? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> At least 3 lines worth (I'd have to check...I have a copy <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> on my desk at work) <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[Gary] GARY-S> Darn - I meant to ask jack if he saw the transputer piece in <[Gary] GARY-S> BYTE <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> The last few days I've been working on a B-tree... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> for Forth. Uses BLOCz_S! Ideal for that <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> application. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Gary] GARY-S> That I would like to see posted <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> It would be useful for a lot of things. <[Gary] GARY-S> you betcha - b-trees do lots of neat things <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> The main advange is minimum disk action. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you seen Larry Forsely's B tree? <[Gary] GARY-S> gotta run - nite all <[Gary] GARY-S> no <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> No <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> here it is if I remember it.... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> : tree create does> myself ; <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and you can put in "stuff"... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to do what you want to do. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> I think you are confusing B-trees with binary trees! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Gary] GARY-S> has left. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> B-Trees give honey! :-) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> somewhat, but this is the primitive... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> They are stinkers! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you can make it do whatever you need. <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Especially the killer variaty <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> -a +e <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Huh? <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Killer B Trees <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> I pushed the wrong key! <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh well.. I gotta go. More on the Neural Net code as it <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> develops... <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> <[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Dennis, how is your new job? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok I guess <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> You must have slightly less pressure... <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> to be on tonight. <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm moving the family to Rochester in June <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is calmer her at home, but... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> got a lot of pressure still... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> can I go to bed yet? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> . <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Gook luck! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> Bye now! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> thanks! <[Leonard] NMORGENSTERN> has left. === End of Steno notes. ===