052090
IMAGE PROCESSING,CONFERENCES,FIGGY
Sunday Figgy for May 20, 1990. Forth for prototyping page
composition on an ElectroPress image processor that must handle
4000 different fonts on a 20"x17" 300 DPI image. Teaching Forth
to cobol programmers. Dayton Ohio, a hotbed of Forth! Forth as
the orignal language for WordPerfect. PolyForth for the 386.
Forth vs C.

Figgy Bar May 20 1990



Item    5813841                 90/05/21        10:03

From:   STENO.POOL                      RTC Stenographer Pool

To:     NMORGENSTERN                    N. Leonard Morgenstern

Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 05/20/90   Time: 21:59EDT Attendees: [[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2] [GARY-S] [[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1] [[Larry]
LDAWSON]

Minutes:

<M.CHRISTOPH2> is here.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> What's up?

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Nothing. We two only.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have been forth ing all day

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Doing what with Forth?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Well I am making a "proofer"

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> pmi (Pardon my ignorance) but what is a
	proofer?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> a proofer f

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> a proofer "proof" a page composition on a
	laserjett

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> ooops It is a neat graphics exercise, the
	image plane is 6 MEGABYTES

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have only done a few very primitive
	things in graphics.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Some years ago I programmed a log chart
	printout

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> There is alot of stuff

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but it took 15 minutes to print a blank
	chart so

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I gave up.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> for graphics

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> on this board

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes there is. Have you tried any?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Have you ever heard of a raster image
	processor?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> yea I sure have. NICE!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think so. Raster is like TV screen
	processing

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Effectively it is an expensive character
	generator!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> laser printers use them to render the bits
	for a character in a spec'd font

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If you could give some specific comments on
especially
	useful

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> files, it would make this more valuable
	when it is posted

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have used the files by mike Sperl. He
	updates it frequently

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I use these words to make a viewport on the
	6 meg image

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> have you seen Tom Zimmers TCOM

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, very nice, but you have to do certain
	things exactly right.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The biggest lack is CREATE ... DOES>

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> yea, it's sorta tough to catch on to

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Very finicky. I have, however, written

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> several file filters with it, and they come
	out 4k bytes or so.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> isn't there a similar thing th

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> tho called :does>

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Let me look it up

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sorry, don't have it. We are painting the
	house & it is

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in a box somewhere.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> fun! I hate house projects... Until they
	are done!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The way TCOM works is that defining words
	are in the "library"

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> If you know how, you can add them there.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> it should be faster too

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> that FPC that is

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But you can get along without them, even if
	a bit clumsy.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, F-PC is fast, but it is a memory hog!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Pretty neat concept thj

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> tho

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Very, considering that about 80% or more is
	one guy's work!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I love fpc. who cares about memory? I wish
	we have FPC#*^

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> wish we had fpc386

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom will write it next week!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (A joke. When he was developing it, it was
	literally true

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that if you had last week's version, you
might already be out of date.)

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i think fpthat FPC386 would be GREAT

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> C. H. Ting practically twisted Tom's arm &
	made him forego updates

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> for 1 year.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> that is a prob form me because i must
	change nucleus in my app. It's hard

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> to follow updates

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Join the club. I am a hobbyist so I have
	little problem,

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but that is the complaint all around from
	professionals.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> By the way, better tracking of versions
	should be an advantage

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> if you buy a commercial Forth.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I use it professionally, but still feel
	like an amatrer

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2>  even after 6 years

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There were a number of changes between 2.25
	and 3.5 that were not

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> as well documented as they should have
	been.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I went from 2.25 directly to 3.5

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Those are the only ones that were
	"officially" released.

<D.RUFFER> is here.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> myhi

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Some people have some what you might call
	"inter-beta" versions

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dennis.

<D.RUFFER> Hello Len, mdc

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> hi

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mdc is talking about F-PC

<D.RUFFER> yea? so what's up?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I find that tthe segmentation of the PC
	which is a curse in many ways

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> can keep the forth creed of KISS (keep it
	small stupid!) because cr

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> bebecause cramming everything into 640
	keeps you on your toes

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have been training more customers in
	forth!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> These customers are what? Engineers?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Well.... Most are cobol types. the last was
	a SMART mainframe OPERATOR!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What are their reactions?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> the application language will let them do
	a lot without going to forth. All immediately

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> want to use it tho. NO printing task has
	been unable to be written.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> The reaction to forth has been very
	favorable!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That confirms what many say. Those that
	come to Forth without too many

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> prejudices learn it easily and like it.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I think

<D.RUFFER> a cobol programmer doesn't have prejudices?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> that is exactly true especially if they
	dont have to use it. It allows

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> them to use the system for a while and
	learn forth in bits & pieces

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Dennis, I think they have little
	snobbishness

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> C and Pascal programmers think of
	themselves as "professionals"

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and look down at anything unfamiliar as
	inferior

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "If I don't know about it, how can it be
	good?"

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have embarked on a mission to replace 1.5
	million $ worth of

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> hardware with a simulation on a 386/33mhz
	pc!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (eagerly awaiting details) Tell us more!!!

<D.RUFFER> sounds like fun!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Well the ElectroPress is very pricy to run.
	We need to test "jobs" offline

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> with a RIP simulator.  It must handle 4000
	different fonts

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> and do basic graphics

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> on a 20"x17" 300 DPI image

<D.RUFFER> yes, it sounds like a simulator is essential

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sounds like something that is perfect for
	Forth.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> my boss has decided that it should be done
	in FORTH.  The last project sold him

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Even C addicts agree that FORTH was perfect
	"for this project"

<D.RUFFER> best simulation language around

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have 3 versions already. 1 for the press,
	one to send the raw data to the

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> screen and one to "decode" it back into
	english. Now i must do the actual rasterized

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> version

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> meet your needs.Programming in Forth is
	unlike any other language. It is more like writing a computer
	language that will meet your needs.

<D.RUFFER> so what's the problem with F-PC?

<D.MARTINDAL1> is here.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I won't use anything else. No problem with
	getting work here in forth

<D.RUFFER> hi dean

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> hi all

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dean

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> 'lo

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> no problem getting work WHERE in forth?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have no problem with f-pc . I realy like
	it

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Are there any other Forthers in Dayton

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> here in dayton ohio

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> lots. the Air force base uses it and
	several companies here are alive because of it

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Can you give some specifics?

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> seems like no one but me has heard of it
	in utah

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> dayton'sspecific how

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> specific how?

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> University of Utah and BYU both have strong
	CS departments

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'll bet that if you put up notices on
	their bulletin boards

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you could get enough together to organize a
	FIG chapter!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> dayton's pretty nice. the cost of living is
	very low

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> There used to be a chapter in Orem UT (40
	miles south) but it died right about when I got into forth

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> it was listed in forth dimensions one
	month, then disappeared the next

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Orem is where WordPerfect is. I believe
	that the early versions

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> were written in Forth.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are there enough Forther's around to get it
	beck going Dean?

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> really? didn't know that

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> What platforms do you all use

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Oh yea, I even have SSI Forth

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> Well so far I've found me, and.... that's
	all

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> WordPerfect Corp, used to be Satelite
	Software International

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> The produced a Forth for a time

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My interest is teaching Forth, and I want a
	good learner's language

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I like F83, except for its kludgey editor.
	FPC is too big

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> although I like it for personal use.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and WordPerfect WAS originally written in
	Forth

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> why'd they change?

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> New ammunition for my Forth debate down at
	work

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> change what, then name or the language

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> So why did they quit using forth?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> the lang

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> because they wanted to port it to other
	platforms

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> I thought the party line was, Forth ports
	to everything

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> pretty tought to write something for Unix in
	native Forth

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i have often written po

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Forth is portable, but you usually have to
	write it yourself to do it

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> 'test' platforms in forth as a demo and
	ended up finishing it before we finished the spec

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Forth is very good for new stuff.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> B.it is the vary fastest development
	platform, bar none

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Managers often don't like it because they
	believe that

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> it is hard to maintiain.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Almost everyone agrees on Forth's prototype
	abilities

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> it is only hard to maintain because good
	forthers are hard to find

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but maintainability and portability still
	goes to C

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and C programmers are a dime a dozen

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> hiss! hiss!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the same for C compilers

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That's sometimes all they are worth Dennis,
	but if

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> they are adequate for the job, then they
	get hired.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You are right, though. Managers fear that
	they won't be

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you don't have to be very good if the
	compiler does all the optimization for you

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> able to get someone to maintain their
	program, and will

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have been involved in several C ports and
	it is less than simple in some cases!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> decide to rewrite them in C, sometimes at
	great expense.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and years of time.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> exactly Mike, but the fact that the compiler
	are there "confuses" some people

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have often stepped in to save a project
	mired in C

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> to finish it in weeks where they had worked
	for month and in one case years!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that can be said for any language Mike

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I agree but it has happened alot to be an
	accident

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> at Forth, Inc., we have even done that when
	it was written in Forth (by incompetant programmers of course
	:-)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> often the problem is not the language, but
	the design

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> dennis tell me about FORTH inc's 386
	system, please>

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 386 pF is a protected mode, flat model Forth

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it switches back to real mode to call DOS

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> with access to DOS if needed ?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anything you want

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> is it based on G. bailey's work

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, I'm not sure who did it first

<LDAWSON> is here.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Dennis, pmi (pardon my ignorance) but what
	is a "flat model" Forth?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but Greg uses a lot of pF stuff

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ho, Larry

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> flat model means that the dictionary
	pointers are a full 32 bits

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i means that you have up to 4 gig of
	memory, no segmentation

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not any of this segmented stuff like F-PC
	uses

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well not really 4 gig Mike

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> why?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is a problem with standards over 1 Meg

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in fact, on a IBM machine, you have a
	problem after 640K

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> because that is where they put the video and
	other drivers

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> bailey's native didnt't have that prob.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes it does, but he probably just skips the
	dictionary over it

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> true, he HOP's over the mess!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is no way to remove that section of
	memory between 640 and 1 Meg

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> Doesn't hopping over get messy at the
	seam?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then, every program has a different method
	to deal with what's above 1 Meg

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> My app delivers the compiler and
	interpreter to the customer. Pretty pricey to do that wth poly

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, that would require a lisence or
	something

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> yea for several 1000$

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but you could probably talk a deal

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> as long as you don't give your customers
	access to the nucleus

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> the up front cost is no big deal but the
	recurring costs are a bear to sell

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> to the boss

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you talked with Forth, Inc. marketing
	yet?

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> brb

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> well i have done it in fpc I planned to
	jump ship if i ran out of steam but

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i was able to finish it

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you ship the meta compiler with your
	system?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> the proofer uses massive amounts of memory
	tho. flat would be nice

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> yes but it's not a requirement

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you should talk to us, and see what it might
	cost

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i'll do that

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can't quote prices, but it seems that

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> if you get rid of the nucleus and target
	compiler

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <back>

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you shouldn't have to pay for each copy
	shipped

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> hmm

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but then, I'm not in marketing

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they make those decisions

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i get so sick of segments!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well, give them a call

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i have been sending a token payment to Tom
	Z when i ship a system

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> to encourage him

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've got to leave now

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> bye

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye Dennis

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> my son needs a solder job

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> see ya later

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> has left.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have to leave in about 5 minutes

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> where is pear.l city

<[Larry] LDAWSON> PC is about 145 miles w of chicago, 15 miles
	s. of Wisconsin

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What kind of work do you do?

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Librarian

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2>

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Public?

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Engineering

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i see starting forth back on the shelfs

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ah!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i could enjoy reading all day!

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> ha ha

<GARY-S> is here.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Don't recommend first edition. Too
	idiosyncratic.

<[Larry] LDAWSON> I wish I could, can't, too busy

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Secnod is much better

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Pygmy, avalilable on this board, has a set
	of

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> words that make it compatible with Starting
	Forth, and

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i wish Leo B would write Being Forth

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> it should be very good for beginners.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Have you read his Thinking Forth?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> 20 times

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Forth for Beginners, by Lampton is very
	elementary

<GARY-S> no longer in publication

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> great book

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i want more!

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A book I like is Kelly and Spies. Not
	quite so good for beginners

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> as Brody, but takes you a bit further, and
	is therefore

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> more generally interesting.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

<GARY-S> Kelly and Spies

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Burnap's FORTH, the 4th generation lang. has
	some interesting features.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A lot of these books are available from
	Forth Interest Group.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I think I have read every forth book there
	is, but mighta missed a few

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga Larry.

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Are we in FORMAL?

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Brody is the only book that is consistently
	to be found

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in bookstores.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> we have a great bookstaore here in dayton.
	One of the best in the country i am told

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No we aren't formal, but I like to end with
	ga

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> so people know I am thruoug.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <through>

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> sorry, ga

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

<GARY-S> A book a lot of people overlook which is 'EXCELLENT'
	for Forth usres on a pc is "Library of Forth Routines and
	Utilities" by James Terry

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you like it? I find it hard to make out.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> .

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> Some good ideas

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> in it

<GARY-S> I like it a lot - especially if I get stuck on some
	silly routine - I also like Feierbach's bookk for the same
	reason

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will have to study it more.

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> thinking forth is one of the best computer
	books i have every read on any

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> language

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Gentlemen: I have to leave. Why don't I
	give time for

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> any final comments.

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> ga

<GARY-S> You guys want to chat a bit (wee bit ) longer, Len has
	to go

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> ga 

<[Larry] LDAWSON> ga

<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye all

[ Gary takes over as leader ]

<GARY-S> Worked like a charm - any thing you want to discuss for
a few more moments ?

<NMORGENSTERN> is here.

<GARY-S> It worked len - go away !

<NMORGENSTERN> My curiosity made me come back & see what happened

<NMORGENSTERN> has left.

<GARY-S> What were you doing - besides book reviews ?

<GARY-S> This is NOT formal - go somebody

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> we were discussing TCOM earlier

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> by T Zimmer

<GARY-S> I'm not a big F-PC fan

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> too big?

<[Larry] LDAWSON> Well, I gotta go too, Night all.

<[Larry] LDAWSON> has left.

<GARY-S> too verbose - and tends to bury the Forth underbelly

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i love all the goodies. Plus having the
	source is a pre req to me!

<GARY-S> Having said that - I do like BBL, but I don't keep the
	Abundance stuff

<GARY-S> No arguments from me - I was just noting a preference.

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> what's Abundance like, as compared to othe
	database languages?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> i cant use typical "pro" systems.

<GARY-S> I especialluy agree that source is a MUST

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> no source is included

<GARY-S> Roedy wrote Abun to be a do-all for a small to medium
	large business.

<GARY-S> Hence the name. The resources are VERY ABUNDANT

<GARY-S> and surprisingly fast.

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> So it's not really a generic database
	language like dBase or something?

<GARY-S> no - it is a total MIS management package

<GARY-S> You can do payroll, supplies, form letters, and the
	marquis in front of the store with Abundance

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> sounds neat, I'll take a look

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> The marquis? Serious?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> what do you think of the TCOM compiler

<GARY-S> It also just happens to be able to do a dBase type
	thingee too, and comes with two very slick assemblers

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> It's very

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> unusual

<GARY-S> It wouldn't be fair for me to comment on TCOM - I lack
	the hands on to properly express an opinion

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> A C guy suggested that forth needed
	something like it, then Tom Intro'd it!

<GARY-S> I use Unix and I cringe at all this 'make Forth more C
	like talk"

<GARY-S> They are distnctly different vehicles

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> You use forth on UNIX?

<GARY-S> I know they both meta - after that the roads are
	considerably different

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> In some ways C is getting more like FORTH,
	witness the new Instant C stuff

<GARY-S> The only Forth's currently available on Unix are not
	true in some respects, but yes, I have Mitch Bradley's CForth
	and Mike Patel's TILES up on Unix

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> So you write in c alot?

<GARY-S> I didn't say that. I don't claim to be a wizzard at
	anything but spelling Smith :-)

<GARY-S> I do SysOp on here and also the GEnie Unix RT

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> I have a ?.  I am a fig member, how do i
	get access here to fig lib?

<GARY-S> leave e-mail to D.Ruffer

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> thx

<GARY-S> no prob - anything else before we lock the gate ?

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> nope.

<[Dean] D.MARTINDAL1> no

<[mdc] M.CHRISTOPH2> has left.

<GARY-S> I do need to go to. You guys can stay and chat -
	whatever

<GARY-S> g'nite === End of Steno notes. ===

=END=