Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

  Date: 05/04/89   Time: 21:29EDT

Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]
[[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS]
[[len] NMORGENSTERN]
[L.BROTZMAN]
  
Items discussed: computer buys,new Computer Journal calendar,RCFB on ForthNet,
                 BitNet,FIGL,teaching Forth to high schools,Forth on Astro-12,
                 SUPER-SEE as learning aid,abyss known as JFAR,FD white space
Minutes:
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Gary!
<[Gary] GARY-S> hi len - sorry about that
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi there Gary Do you use Mirror?
<[Gary] GARY-S> Only when I shave
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have a little script file that I set up that beeps
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> when somebody comes on. It goes like this:
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> LW C ">"
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> AL
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> AL
=== ===
<GARY-S> sorry bout that - low battery
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You must be using a portable!
<GARY-S> true
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I would love to have one, but can't justfy 4 computers!
<GARY-S> data comm will suck a low battery dry quicker than ANYTHING
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have a PC clone, a Mac, and an obsolete PC clone with 
256 k
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that will run CP/M
<GARY-S> I'm looking for a super bargain AT
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> There are lots of them in the ads
<GARY-S> 2 grand ain't my idea of a bargain
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> brb
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Whole Earth Access has a Turbo 286
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> w/o hard disk for 1399. I guess thats 2 grand when you put
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> everything into it.
<GARY-S> hard card and EGA = ???
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mono
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "mono card"
<GARY-S> IF I get a new box minimum config is 12 MHz clock , 286 w/ 30Meg hard 
card and EGA
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Here's IBM Model 30 with 20 MB disk & vga "on board" for 
1995
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Monitor not incl)
<GARY-S> now you understand - 2 grand
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. A lot of bucks
<GARY-S> I did pick up a 286 Motherboard for $40.00
<DHWEINSTEIN> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It says ibm 20mb hd or the CMS 30 mb hd "
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Hullo...just dropping in for a minute.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dave
<GARY-S> hola David:
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> The first Forth column will be in fact two columns, but 
moved back to issue #40 instead of #39. Which means...
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> ...I get to rewrite the prose I didn't like!!!!!!
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> (yeah)
<GARY-S> I notice Forth only got a cursory nod from Kilber this issue
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> So the code planned for the first two columns will be one 
column, and an introduction to Forth fornewcomers will be another colum
n.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Yep.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Who is Kilber?
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> It'll probably get more if he uses the MC68HC11FN.
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> Oh well...I need to run... full info on 13.
<GARY-S> Bill - wrote the Forth Tutorial in Forth in our library
<[Dave] DHWEINSTEIN> has left.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx
<GARY-S> Jax'n - how are you this fine evening ?
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Just peachy now that i have escaped the basement
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax, I am using something you said as "Quote of the Month"
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> uh oh
<GARY-S> It is but one layer in the mansion
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in our North Bay FIG newsletter.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> ( gars ... RCFB is down there ) Len ... What?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> C programmers are muttering inanities, while Forth 
programmers
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> are answering questions that were never asked.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Did I say that?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> that I recorded it).
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> aha. will it be used at my trial?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Depends on the accuser and the accusation.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm like Ollie ...
<GARY-S> has RCFB benefitted from the net ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> " All litigation shall be the responsibility of the 
litigator
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> I'll never lie to you unless I have a reason to.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> ... :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and all allegations -- need I go on?
<GARY-S> I will not be the alligator
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> i'm crying crocodile tears.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, gars.
<W.BADEN1> is here.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Now at least there are some messges in the conference.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Wil
<GARY-S> again - is RCFB benefitting from the net - ie: is local traffic 
greater
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Hi Editor In Cheif.
<GARY-S> hi Wil
<W.BADEN1> Hi all.
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> Gary ... yes ... i am posting all the time now!
<[King Zog] FIGCHAPTERS> ... :-)
<GARY-S> Let's walk down there...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has left.
<W.BADEN1> Hi gary, len, & jack.
<[QMENU] FIGCHAPTERS> bye, len!
<GARY-S> any salient comments appreciated - this is open anarchy
<GARY-S> Jax - guess you got my mail per Mr. Patel
<[QMENU] FIGCHAPTERS> I've never met Wil but I think of him every time I press 
F2, which is about 400 times a day or more.
<[QMENU] FIGCHAPTERS> Yes, I am glad you got that straightened out to your 
satisf.
<GARY-S> Is that an honor ?
<[QMENU] FIGCHAPTERS> Do you know what it means to press F2?
<GARY-S> Wil - jump in at will (pun NOT intended)
<L.BROTZMAN> is here.
<GARY-S> hey Lee - how's Unisoft
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> LB ... how are you and all the little lbs. ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> .. :-)
<L.BROTZMAN> Don't know.  Haven't talked to Arne for two months
<GARY-S> We need to get Lee's BitNet goodies worked into ForthNet next
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ( PS ... email J.BROWN11 and tell him how to get 
on your FIGIL mailer ...)
<W.BADEN1> This is appalling.  I'm trying to remember.  STAMP, I believe. (to 
Jax).
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> It's whatever you named UPDATE + FLUSH ... KEEP ?
<W.BADEN1> Has anyone heard what's happening in Boston?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> What's happening in Boston?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ( i'll bite ).
<GARY-S> Besides pool table rapes
<W.BADEN1> ANSI.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Shaa ... that was New Bedford.
<W.BADEN1> Today thru sat.
<GARY-S> Why are you NOT there ?
<W.BADEN1> $$$.
<GARY-S> good point
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> are you coming to Denver?
<L.BROTZMAN> Waiting for washington
<W.BADEN1> Yes!!!
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> WHEN ???????????????????
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> lee what has happened to your FIGIL mailing list?
<W.BADEN1> Oct. or Nov.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> SPEAK AT DENVER FIG??
<L.BROTZMAN> FIGIL is still there.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Tell Jack Brown how to get to you.
<L.BROTZMAN> It just redistrubutes the Usenet stuff
<W.BADEN1> Happy to.
<L.BROTZMAN> Hooo Hummm
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> He is learning to use BITNET
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Great, Will ... can you email me a firm date?
<GARY-S> Lee - any chance we will start receiving FIGL news here or on the 
xCFB's since all are networked (sort-of) one drop will get boucoups distrib
ution
<W.BADEN1> gary -- tnx for passing on message from J.brown.
<W.BADEN1> Jax- not yet.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Ok, keep in touch. We have our own BBS.
<GARY-S> see above message to Lee, Wil - I am the network mule
<L.BROTZMAN> WEll--- I have to download, archive and index the stuff...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> RCFB (303) 278-0364
<L.BROTZMAN> It doesn't sound like much but it competes...
<L.BROTZMAN> with my work day, and my school day, and my home life.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> As Jerry Shifrin says ...
<GARY-S> Just keep us in mind - especially when you want MAX impact
<W.BADEN1> Seriously now, what should "educational Forth" be like?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> "It is hard to overestimate the time necessary to 
run and maintain a BBS"
<L.BROTZMAN> Not to mention that most of the stuff isn't much...
<L.BROTZMAN> when stacked up against the usual...
<L.BROTZMAN> fare on the xCFB networks.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> I have been teaching a Forth class for about a 
year now, Wil ...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> to everything from Mainframers to retired 
engineers dinking controllers.
<W.BADEN1> and?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Teaching Forth ( to me ) has been teaching how 
Forth WORKS, teaching the PHILOSOPHY of same, and answering a LOT of silly
 questions that are very userfu.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> useful.
<GARY-S> user fu - we're all familiar with that
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> I'm a foot fighter ... i practice Toe Fu.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> What is "educational" Forth, Wil?
<W.BADEN1> ok
<GARY-S> Wil - have you ever developed any determinants routines ?
<W.BADEN1> I have that as an action item on the fig board. ..
<W.BADEN1> Gary -- not in Forth.
<W.BADEN1> OSMy present feeling is that it should be minimal ANSI ...
<L.BROTZMAN> About education...
<GARY-S> Jack Brown was looking for same - trying to do them in Forth using 
recursion
<W.BADEN1> compatible with Starting Forth, with ...
<L.BROTZMAN> archi warnock an I gave a twelve week seminar if Forth here at 
Goddard...
<W.BADEN1> OSOSfew crashes, and always a sense of where you are.
<L.BROTZMAN> Archie talked about basic high-level Forth...
<L.BROTZMAN> I talked about internal Forth execution.
<L.BROTZMAN> Archie's class was about 20 people, mne about 10.
<W.BADEN1> Initially it should be MS-DOS runnable
<GARY-S> you should be excellent at that, Lee
<L.BROTZMAN> It was fun but we hit roadblocks trying to explain the ...
<L.BROTZMAN> language across processors...
<W.BADEN1> to the data segment, so the code segment couldn't be clobbered. ga
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Cute. Forth with training wheels!
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> You know ...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> you could create ...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> a cute little teaching engine ....
<GARY-S> Wil - you may have noticed Thursday non-guest FIGGY's are a form of 
anarchy, like French coffee brunches
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> a microprocessor board that could be used by four 
users to learn forth in a classroom ...
<GARY-S> everyone talking at once
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> the ZILOG Z80000 ( yes, eighty-thousand ) has MMU 
on chip which would allow ...
<W.BADEN1> The editor is limited to 1000 lines, equivalent to 64 blocks.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> hardware implementation of that which you are 
describing.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> .
<W.BADEN1> OSbut loaded from MS-DOOS cr-lf text files.
<GARY-S> isn't there a minimum forth dictionary on chip ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ??? not on z80,000 ... on super8, yes, ( Z880 ).
<GARY-S> oops !
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> z80000 aka z320 ... 32 bits + on-chip MMU. Great 
for protected multiprogrammed Forth system!
<L.BROTZMAN> JAX, can your review of the new JForth be released via telecomm 
yet?>
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> wil ... wher existeth this beastie you describe? 
in your 386?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> lb ... did it appear yet?
<W.BADEN1> 256k minimal MS-DOS.
<L.BROTZMAN> I don't read Amiga journals.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> I think they own it if they publish, but I will 
check ... microtimes lets me distribute.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> but not sure about Amazing Computing.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> They have not even confirmed they will publish.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Nor has ESP, where I may have an article for June.
<L.BROTZMAN> Give me volumew and I will gladly buy the issuer
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> You got me, chief. I just check the newsstands 
like everyone else ...
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<GARY-S> Wil - DID you respond to Jack on-line ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> all these magazines pay like 4 months late.
<GARY-S> wb len
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx
<W.BADEN1> Gary- I put a message on the topic.  I don't yet know how to respond.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Len ... tell us about your sex change.
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Huh?
<GARY-S> If you responded in the topic - that will do the trick
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ( 4D has him as "Leona Morgenstern" on page 4 of 
March 1989 )
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> OSOS(Uproarious laughter.)
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Not so bad as some other perversions of my name
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> In High school, some called me "Morgangrinder"
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> wifey is Von Dassow. Became "Von Dogchow" in H.S.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> and MY name is WOEHR. You can imagine .............
.....
<GARY-S> the combination of the two leads to some intresting implications
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> (reading rapidly in 4D)
<GARY-S> Anyone know if Magellan has any Forth on board (Lee)
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Page 4, middle of page.
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> thanx
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> THAT didn't bother me, Len. ...
<L.BROTZMAN> I wouldn't be surprised either way (Forth or no Forth)
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> What WAS unsettling ...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> was all the white space in 4D.
<L.BROTZMAN> I know that the ASTRO-12 mission next April is Forth controllerd
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> My boss has pulled out of 4D, and it doesn't look 
like he's alone.
<GARY-S> Gonna put your ads in a high mover like JFAR ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> No, ESP.
<L.BROTZMAN> The paylod specialist for Astro-1 and I ...
<L.BROTZMAN> developed a Forth for the Commodore 64 together.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> FORSLEY WHERE IS MY MAGAZINE ??????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????
<GARY-S> Is this recently, Lee, and WHY ?
<GARY-S> why 6502 ?
<L.BROTZMAN> That was ancient history, but he adapted UniForth...
<L.BROTZMAN> for the patform controllers of the Ultaviolet telecope
<L.BROTZMAN> ... which is on board.
<GARY-S> That's this comming April ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Wil ... is your educational Forth going to be 
distributed?
<L.BROTZMAN> The NASA Launch manifest is now up in the air...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> good place for it
<L.BROTZMAN> Astro-1 may laucnh in April or May '90
<GARY-S> Is it P.D. Wil ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> OSjax ... Oh yes. It is for FIG.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> WE don't have a word for them , but ...
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> OSDo y'all think I'm on the right track?  Is there something 
I'm missing?
<GARY-S> Why not post it here ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Chess players do: "PATZER" there are a lot of old 
PATZERs in this world who could use it.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Idiot proof it the best you can.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Help screens, a' la F-PC Forth?
<GARY-S> Back to your ANSI comments - I applaud the minimalist path
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> OROROSOROSOSOSOSOSHelp frames yes. But how much content?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> what is filling up your buffer with OROSOROSOROS ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> Content ...
<GARY-S> wil - what's with all the OSOS,OROSOROS.. ?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> A diagram of the definition?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Buffered keyboard on RedRyder and backspaces. This is the 
first I knew of it. ..
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ... /header/engine/this/that/tother/unnest
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> list of CFA's and names of all compiled words in 
def?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Will try harder. (Still unsure of self on BB.)
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> sort of like a full-screen SUPER-SEE
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> to jax- fake an example, plz.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> if you could click on a word on the screen with 
the mouse and SUPER-SEE screen came up, WOW!
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> example: ( everyone hold off a second) ...
<L.BROTZMAN> Heading out , adios.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> user types SUPER-SEE ZOTZ
<L.BROTZMAN> has left.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> and screen pops up:
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ZOTZ
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ... /84ZOTZ/NEST/SWAP/DUP/ROT/UNNEST
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> NEST = 654
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> SWAP - 405
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> DUP = 426
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ROT = etc ...
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> WORDS LIKE: SEE ZORG ZNARG ZLOTZ
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> CLICK HERE to return to Forth
<[Wil] W.BADEN1>    Mouse optional.  High school class lab with minimal MS-Dos 
machines.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> right, i get carried away.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> The disassembly should be compilable Forth.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> neato
<GARY-S> like a true step-trace decompile
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> there is a guy in our forth class who would love 
that.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> A good friend ses that comments should optionall be compiled 
so they can be decompiled.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> REPTIL works like that, wil.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> What is the cost? (storage and compile time.)
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> Wil, do you worry about that in a teaching system?
<GARY-S> I'm mailing this puppy in, gentlemen - any last comments for posterity 
?
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> ref: JFAR IV,ii page 231 ff.
<GARY-S> You got JFAR IV ?
<[Wil] W.BADEN1>      to gary- none for posterity, but personal thanx for 
holding my hand Mar.9.
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> YES goldurnit, but not V,ii,iii,iv
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> FORSLEY I WANT MY MAGAZINE!
<[actually jax] FIGCHAPTERS> *&*&*&*&**!@(#(*@!&)(#*&$)(@*#&$)(*#@&
<GARY-S> My pleasure, I assure you - nice piece of work Wil
<[len] NMORGENSTERN> I have IV
<GARY-S> and on that happy note ..
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