Minutes of the FIGGY BAR RT Conference.

Date: 05/03/90   Time: 22:29EDT
  
  The question of the night was:'Are you a member of FIG ? SigForth ACM ? Is
  the GEnie Forth RoundTable serving your needs ?' What got hotly discussed
  was Forth's place (or lack of place) in Computer Science and FIG's place
  (or lack of place) with respect to that. There are no answers in this
  transcript. There is debate !!!

Attendees:
[GARY-S]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[DANMILLER]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Wil] W.BADEN1]
[[Robert] R.BERKEY]
[[FIG Plucker] JAX]

Minutes:
<GARY-S> roll 2d6
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<GARY-S> welcome
<DANMILLER> is here.
<GARY-S> Dan dan the sigforth man
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> We are doing a major paint etc. job. My computer was 
covered for several days!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <suffering withdrawal symptoms.
<GARY-S> you guys been needing water - we have it to spare
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes I heard about the floods
<GARY-S> The Arkansas River is 8 feet above flood stage - and it's raining
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I remember big floods on the Missouri when I lived
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in Omaha. Never affected me, as I lived on the hills.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Dan. Long time since you were on a RT!!!!
<GARY-S> very long time
<DANMILLER> hi. but not much any more. had to pull back and retrench. too too 
much at work.  100 hr plus weeks.  still looking for a fourth radiologist.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <Len is glad he doesn't have to work any more>
<DANMILLER> I did run across an add in the journal of the society of nuclear 
medicine.
<DANMILLER> on one of the nuclear gamma camera companies was advertising 
"increase your computing power by 32 to the FoRTH!.  its a french outfit 
that
<DANMILLER> uses 15 programmers. has 1.5 megabytes of binary.  the programming 
team is
<DANMILLER> composed of members in the us and europe.  interesting that they 
advertise
<DANMILLER> using a forth operating system in the add to physicians. The 
name of the company is SOPHA  (I think I got the spelling right.)
<APPERT> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Engineers love Forth; Computer Science types hate it!
<GARY-S> a LOT of you medical types seem to like Forth
<GARY-S> still in Florida, Kev ???
<[Kevin] APPERT> nope, back in sillycone valley
<DANMILLER> They use dbase 4 apparently under forth or called ffrom forth with 
the code for the calls
<DANMILLER> embedded in the forth source as special comments!.   ...
<DANMILLER> Yea but this wasn't a programmers journal.  This was for nuclear 
medicine docs.
<[Kevin] APPERT> this isn't the first time forth has been debased
<DANMILLER> Like seeing an ad for forth in the Journal of forensics , Len.
<GARY-S> Respond to the question(s) please gents (3 y/n/maybe is all it takes)
<DANMILLER> member of sigforth. like the bbs. what was the other question?
<GARY-S> The question on the door is....
<GARY-S> are you a member of FIG ? sigForth ACM ? Is the GEnie Forth RT serving 
your needs ?
<DANMILLER> yes yes yes. ga
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> SigForth: Yes, Fig: Yes, Needs: Yes.
<GARY-S> Dan - this is an open nigfht , we don"t get formal. Just jump in 
anytime
<[Kevin] APPERT> yes I am a member of the Forth Interest Group, and SigForth 
ACM, not certain about needs.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here.
<DANMILLER> hi will. liked your note a few months ago about comparison with c. 
share your frustrations.
<[Kevin] APPERT> GEnie/Forth RT is like forth itself.  If you don't like what 
it's doing for you, change it so it does the right thing.  Unfortunately
 you do not have the level of control over GEnie you have over forth
<[Kevin] APPERT> you have the responsibility   without the authority
<GARY-S>  sure you do - a note to the SysOps usually gets a prompt response
<GARY-S>  (I hope that is the impression)
<[Kevin] APPERT> there are certain things beyound even thier god-like
powers, Gary
<GARY-S> right
<DANMILLER> So these Sopha guys are multinational , using forth for a major 
application. had anyone heard of them before? ga
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> No, who's Sopha?
<JAX> is here.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> In Forth, yo do not write programs. Instead, you desing 
an instruction set which
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> becomes the solution to your problem or your application.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> C. H. Ting.
<[Kevin] APPERT> which you hope becomes the solution ...    .
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> One can only try, Kevin
<DANMILLER> a nuclear medicine camera company. has a team of 15 forth 
programmers both here and in europe. previously used f83 extended for them by 
mike perry and are switchin to a forth by the guy who works for sun.    .ga
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> You mean Mitch Bradley, Doc.
<DANMILLER> yep.
<[Kevin] APPERT> what about Ting?  I think I missed something
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> All Hail Ting.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Most prolific Forth writer in the world.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Jax, his name is not A H TIng, It is C H Ting
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I was merely quoting something from him.
<DANMILLER> all say FFT in parralel in his honor.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> :-)
<DANMILLER> jax whats lates tween you and fig.?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Ha!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX>  :-)
<DANMILLER> answer garys questions.
<[Kevin] APPERT> return of the revenge of the son of more about forth engines N,
 where N is some large integer
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I told some terrible lies about FIG and they turned out to 
be true!
<DANMILLER> shame jax?
<[Kevin] APPERT> which lies where they, Jax?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> me was BAD boy.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> FIG is not very viable as currently constituted.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Not at least "viable" in my meaning of the word.
<DANMILLER> so same for forth but we have fun anyway.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Their "plan" is to shrink back like a collapsing white 
dwarf star ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> to their home base of Silicon Valley.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No plans for growth.
<DANMILLER> did intel just move?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They have largely given up.
<[Kevin] APPERT> : DEBATE \ resolved : Forth should not be promoted   ;
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Woof, Kevin.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I am FORCED to promote Forth every day.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Because I am paid for programming in Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> Pro:    1)  promoting forth will cause incomp. twits to try 
coding in what they think is Forth
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Aren't YOU promoting Forth.
<[Kevin] APPERT> 2) said twits will write twit-code
<[Kevin] APPERT> 3) they will be fired and forth will be banned from that shop,
<[Kevin] APPERT> 4) decreasing the market for forth-based goods and forth 
programmers.
<[Wil] W.BADEN1> Well spoken, Kevin.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I mean, they pay me to give good work to the customers ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> and they WANT the customers to be HAPPY ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Ain't I supposed to say Forth is best?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> So why won't FIG what I pays $30 odd bucks a year  ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> promote my trade better?!?!?!
<DANMILLER> Can somebody here send a copy of zimmer's fpc to the"The Public 
Software Library, PO BOX 35705, Houston,TX 77235-5705 please.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will try to do that, Dan
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Wil, Kevin talks true feelings but practical nonsense.
<[Kevin] APPERT> anybody want CON?  or should I argue with myself
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> You take FORTH in and you *M*A*K*E* it work.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No excuses. Forth is big enough for any job.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Kevin: You say that promoting forth will cause
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> incomp. twits to try coding in what they think is Forth:
<DANMILLER> This is nelson fords's public domain software distribution center. 
 He lists a few forths.  its a good service.  thanks Len.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> But isn't that true of most computer languages; Most who
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> programs in it are semi-compitent at best!
<[Kevin] APPERT> just debate, Jax.  there is always another side.  WHY is it 
nonsense?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> It's nonsense because that isn't what happens in the world 
where it counts.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> In realtime control ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> there is enough forth ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> so that when people do Forth ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> it isn't "first night blues" with them ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> There is a steady trickle of NEW JOBS in Forth in control 
programming ...
<DANMILLER> Hows your harris board coming jax?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( CREATE DOES> doesn't, Dan!!!! :-( )
<[Kevin] APPERT> I have seen it happen in the world, Jax.  QED  (by a hunchback 
it has been shown)
<GARY-S> Kevin - you've done a good bit of Forth programming in other areas...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Forth needs a more upbeat approach.
<DANMILLER> chuckle. really?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> You bet, Dan.
<GARY-S> Is jax point (s) still valid ?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> #($&(*#&$(*#
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( I'll figger it out).
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( that all to Dr. Dan)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Kevin, so you met some BOOBS.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I meet plenty of BOOBS in this business for sure.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> But there is still Forth, and it is sufficient to the task 
at hand.
<[Kevin] APPERT> I don't think his point is valid, even in Real-Time-land
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>  Everybody is a meathead but you and me, Jax
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I get paid sometimes to FIX what the boobs break.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> And I am not so sure about you.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> So, they didn't ruin it for everyone else, Kevin ...
<DANMILLER> Will say
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Forth is growing tremendously in Realtime ...
<DANMILLER> calm down jax.         reaallly?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Look, if I work with five other Forth programmers and we 
sell five new semisolid Forth projects a year ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> What's YOUR problem? :-)
<DANMILLER> How many kits did harris give away?
<[Kevin] APPERT> the folks that have closed doors in my workplace by being BAD 
pseudo Forth programmers
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Dunno!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Well, Kev, work somewhere they like Forth.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> And get on FIG's case to learn how to get publicity for 
FORTH!!!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> A lesson they may be about to learn ... :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> I do work where they like Forth.  Selling it is hard in the 
aftermath of one of these disasters, though, Jax.  Wouldn't you agree?
<GARY-S> Does anyone ever contact Ken Butterfield anymore ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> He shows up occasionally on the RTC's
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No, I wouldn't Kevin.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> When I walked into one job ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> they had just had a disappointment, some would call it a 
disaster ...
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> With Forth, they tend to look on your successes as being 
due
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> to your programming skill, and your disasters as being due 
to Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Not true of most other languages.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> with a Forth project ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I just met the guys again yesterday, two years after the 
debacle ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They had tossed their Forth system and bought ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ANOTHER FORTH SYSTEM ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> and ported the debacle and made the project work!!!
<[Kevin] APPERT> your customers don't sometimes insist on C under those 
circumstances?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They used H/S Forth ....
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> for its metacompiler ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> This is a LARGE corporation ....
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> and the head programmer's ...
<DANMILLER> originally or subsequntly. ie cause or recovery of disaaster with 
hsforth?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> predilicition is to BASIC ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( HS FORTH saved the day.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX>  ..)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Like I said ..
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> this is a BASIC man ...
<DANMILLER> YEA.  nothing sells like commercial success.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> but he saw that FORTH was the ONLY way to finish his 
project ....
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have heard that there have been many disasters
<GARY-S> Is Mahlon still a spokesman for HS ?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> so he did it. So the debacle lost the dabaclers their jobs 
but the debaclee finished the project on their own in Forth.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> saved by Forth.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> So respectfully jaxdisagreez, kev.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have heard that there have been many disasters rescued 
by Forth
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Rabal airport for one
<[Kevin] APPERT> ok, but you can't assume everybody...
<[Kevin] APPERT> makes their decisions on the basis of a ...
<GARY-S> Rabal Airport ???!!??
<DANMILLER> I had heard rabal was a disaster.for forth.
<R.BERKEY> is here.
<[Kevin] APPERT> sane, rational, ordered evaluation of all the facts, Jax.
<GARY-S> welcome, robert
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bob, do you know the story about the Rabal Airport program.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Kevin, what I CAN assume is that if a prospect comes to me 
with a project that can be coded in Forth, I can show him/her why it sh
ould indeed be so, and they BUY.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> No
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I had heard that it was a mess, until reprogrammed in 
Forth.
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Oh, Forth Incs?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Later the managers decided to reprogram it is something 
else
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> & it took them a long time.
<[Kevin] APPERT> you are a better salesman than I, Jax.  (and better than many 
of the folk participating in certain aftermaths of other forth debacles)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Probably. That's why I'm so disappointed at FIG's role in 
the community.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I have said 100 times here at least ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> FIG couldn't sell shaved ice in Hades.
<GARY-S> does have a familiar ring, yes.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( think I said "Hell" the last time, Gars)
<DANMILLER> Why should fig. its a service organization.  puts out a small 
newsletter.  what you expect and why of others.
<[Kevin] APPERT> perhaps not.  can we avoid the necessity of pusshing the 
bolder uphill. though, Jax
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> If you want Forth, you shoulder the boulder.
<DANMILLER> Forth people with forth projects with commercial success will sell 
forth and if they cant maybe there a valid reasons.?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I can program in Forth. I can program in C, too, but I'd 
rather not.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Dan ..
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> There are valid reasons not to use Forth.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> IN certain projects ...
<[Kevin] APPERT>  I maintain the number of adds in the newspaper...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> it isn't the best fit.
<[Kevin] APPERT> for Forth programmers is decreased in the long run...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> But it is the premier, the absoute best realtime language 
if you use a high-level language in preference to assembler.
<[Kevin] APPERT> bye a population of incomp. Forth programmers...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> There's just no argument among those who are working in the 
field ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They say ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> "If you can do it in ASM, it's best ...
<[Kevin] APPERT> which you propose to increase by incautious promotion of the 
language.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> um ... Kevin ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> HOW CAUTIOUS DOES FIG HAVE TO BE WITH ONE FOOT IN GRAVE???
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( ahem ... where was I?)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Anyway ...
<[Robert] R.BERKEY> Criminy, FIGs always had one foot in the grave.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ASM is best ..
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> in realtime, so they say ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> but no one ....
<GARY-S> Kevin - I have to disagree here. Conservative, yes. Dead, not a good 
plan.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> writes entire programs in ASM anymore, it's too slow and 
hard.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Gars, my definition of "dead" is "FIG relapsing into 
insignificance outside Silion Valley"
<GARY-S> Declining membership in a growing field bespeaks of dying.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ok, just so we understand terms.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Anyway, FORTH is the best realtime HLL.
<DANMILLER> So is Vesta going to try to sell Harris boards and make a frforth 
chip a commmercial success in real projects and do more for forth than Fig
selling to fig?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> C is used because C is popular on PC's and Minis.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I've even seen some PL/M.
<GARY-S> The portion of PL/M/1 used by most programmers IS a LOT like BASIC
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Lotsa BASIC ..
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> but even the BASIC programmers agree ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> that Forth is the best for Realtime. THeir reasons for 
*not* using Forth usually have to do with personal skilll level, never beca
use they believe BASIC is better.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Forth is better for realtime for a scad of reasons.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No Jax, C BASIC Fortran, etc. are used because they are
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> will known and managers do not worry about getting another
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> programmer if the one they have leaves.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> 1) Forth's internal structure is easily perceived in an 
ASCII HEX dump.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> ( right len, but these are not "C IS BETTER" reasons, they 
are political. I haven't met ANY C programmers in realtime that believe
 that C is BETTER for realtime, just more practical in a given business 
situation)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> 2) Forth allows interpretive poking ports, interpretive 
user interfaces, no having to rewrite parser.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You are right that the reason I have given has no
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> relationship to the superiority or otherwise of Forth.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> 3) Forth multitasks with indescribable ease compared to any 
C-base op sys I have seen.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> 4) Forth is lightweight and can reside as a kernel on an 
embedded project with minimal ROM usage.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> 5) Forth has a simple view of I/O and files and is easier 
to provide an environment for at the development station .
<DANMILLER> Yes yes yes all that is true,,  so why don't folk make money with 
it.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I DO!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Why don't YOU make money with it????
<DANMILLER> real time forth shops aught to clean up the control business.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> We WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<[Kevin] APPERT> as near as I can understand what you say, Jax, you assert 1) 
nobody ever throws Forth overboard when its perceived as a failure and 
2) they can be talked out of it when they do
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Do you know what we LACK???????????
<DANMILLER> clean up in the control business.
<GARY-S> You do a lot of precedence multi-tasking in Forth ?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I could tell you some stories, gars ... :-)
<GARY-S> I'd rather see the code
<DANMILLER> i bite. what?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> WE LACK FORTH-ORIENTED MANAGERS WHO CAN MANAGE FORTH 
PROJECTS.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> There are enough damn Forth programmers, we could have an 
open season on them to thin out the herd :-)
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Dan, my point is that the unpopularity of Forth has little 
to
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> do with how good or bad it is. Therefore, trying to 
convince managers
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> of its superiority is not going to do any good. You can 
convince the
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Enginerring staff, but it's more difficult to convenc
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN>
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> You give me a competent programmer ....
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> who is willing to learn ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> three months later ...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I'll give you a comptent Forth programmer.
<[Kevin] APPERT> 'willing to learn' are few and far between
<DANMILLER> no lines at the library.
<GARY-S> I like that line, Dan - original ?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> no books at library.
<[Kevin] APPERT> what was crammed down their throats in school is usually the 
end of that
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Forth books are disappearing .
<[Kevin] APPERT> or Thoats, if they are martians
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> FIG won't even sell Phil Koopman's book.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Forth is growing, thank heavens, despite the organized 
Forth community.
<[Kevin] APPERT> publisher won't give them a discount
<DANMILLER> no. credit to herb fred. 100k ultra marathon physician.
<GARY-S> I like it - and will use it :-)
<DANMILLER> other line is what do you mean you didn't have time to do it. did 
<DANMILLER> you Eat today!...
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I sell *scores* of people boards with Forth on board each 
year, people who have never used Forth, or used it much, before.
<[Kevin] APPERT> do you send out a FIG application form with each board?  would 
you?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Sure, nobody ever asked. SIGForth did, though. We send.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That's a great idea: A little blurb about how good Forth is
<[Kevin] APPERT> may I ask?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> with each Board!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Look, they KNOW how good Forth is when they get a VESTA SBC.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They don't need no *steenking promo literature* :-)
<[Kevin] APPERT> the board is the blurb for Forth, itself.  promote the 
organisation
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It never hurts to tell them again
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and again and again and again........
<DANMILLER> no not the intel board. they know when they buy your expertise.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> What's to promote? "Please join our little professional 
society that is quietly going to sleep". Sign.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Advertising pays!
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> sigh.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax, that's terrible!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> A hell of a thing to say
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> It's terrible all right, all the more so since true.
<GARY-S> That is so obvious - I think that should be on the agenda - FIG 
pamphlets to Forth providers for inclusion with the product
<GARY-S> I used to do it, myself and never thought to recommend the idea after 
I closed down HWS
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It's dying, and I want to kill it dead
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> is what you are saying!
<DANMILLER> is not.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No, it's sleepy and I want to wake it up.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> By sticking a sword in its chest, I suppose.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No, by sticking a pointy boot toe up its butt.
<DANMILLER> Who is going to sell vp planner now.  I heard paperback software 
went belly up . did it?
<GARY-S> really ?
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Look back at what you said, and you will see why I am 
angry.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I said our professional organization is quietly going to 
sleep.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I said I want it to wake up.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I said that to get my way I wanted to kick it in the butt.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No you said that you won't send out FIG invitations\
<[Kevin] APPERT> before quitting time, let me recant to the extent that I agree 
that Forth should be promoted, perhaps with some thought as to how to
produce good forth programmers, and not just sheer numbers (such as unamed 
other prog lang. with initials C
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> becuse FIG is moribund.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> No, I was NEVER ASKED. I just was emphasizing the 
ludicrous nature of the enclosure.
<DANMILLER> It takes a lot of volunteer work to run an organization.  Sigforth 
folk worked hard on setting up two conferences.  Attendence year one was 23.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> That's not kicking it anyway, it's starving it
<GARY-S> Good suggestion Kev
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> Len, I'm not PUNISHING the Forth Interest Group.
<DANMILLER> Year two after much work was 26.      There aren't that many folk 
out there to tap for resources jax.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It sure sounds as if you are
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> They just can't get it together even to MEET and to HAND 
PEOPLE the LITERATURE>
<DANMILLER> figt has same problem.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> It's totally disorganized.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> It's aimless.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> It's bored and wants to go to sleep.
<DANMILLER> is not.  just much to do . few to do it.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I want FIG to wake up and take the leadership in the 
popularization of Forth.
<GARY-S> May 17 - Tom Almy of Terktronix on interfaces for non-forth users
<GARY-S> TOM ALMY - May 17 - HERE !!!
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Will make it if I can, Gary
<[Kevin] APPERT> run for deity, Jax
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> I'd rather run the bath water, Kev.
<GARY-S> last call folk
<[Kevin] APPERT> ;)
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> But I'll run for the board if they ever hold election.
<GARY-S> tick...
<DANMILLER> jax call george need a vp for sigforth. <dan> bye
<GARY-S> tick...
<GARY-S> tick...
<[Kevin] APPERT> I thought elections were scheduled?
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> gnite.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> no, kev.
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> not yet.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Bye all
<[FIG Plucker] JAX> sigh.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> has left.
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