Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference. FIGGY BAR of 25 April 1991. Notice on the door reads: Welcome to another open FIGGY BAR. Are you ready for dpANS Forth ? Would you like Wil Baden to restart the 'puzzels' topic ? If none of these appeal to you, start your own ax grinding (Forth related). Your FIG-tender is Gary. We didn't discuss the puzzels. We did discuss dpANS and give quick personnel sketches. Date: 04/25/91 Time: 22:26EDT Attendees: [GARY-S] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[doug] D.GARRETT] Minutes: is here. is here. Well, that's 3 of the deacons, no choir ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No comments about my singing! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> la.la.la.la.laa.la.la.la That good or that bad ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Johhny one-note I know also <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> do re mi fa so <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and ti <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> disconnected. Have you checked out topic 10 lately ? dpANS is taking on a decidedly nasty tone. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> haven't checked yet today...is it getting worse? Wait till you read the latest volleys <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh, are there any _new_ arguements this time?

Elliott is doing a great job mopping up after all my spills - keep him <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yeh, he is picking this up _real_ fast...and I actually think he enjoys it

No really new arguments, just the old arguments are growing teeth and becoming personalized <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hum...now how do I do my job (stop personal attacks) when they happen across the ForthNet...hum I guess Len is really gone ?!??? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> might have gotten a call..and no call waiting is here. You don't - and that may actually be good. You do have the right to e-mail GEnie-ites whoveer off too far, but I'm not satisfied a few invectives don't push the envelope a little. <[doug] D.GARRETT> Did I interrupt a discussion about swearing on Genie? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, no, but you can't do that :) Dennis - one quick comment. Do you know the GEnieus RT has a topic for other SysOps to leave messages in ? I have received a few new Unix users as a result of messages there. is here. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, I should get into the GEnieus RT more often... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but there is just too much over there

No - Doug, we were discussing the tember of the exchanges regarding dpANS in Category 10, especially the ones off Usenet <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Let's hope they don't get too nasty... <[len] LMORGENSTERN> Have you guys been having line problems? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> GEnie is supposed to be a _family_ place... If they do, I will continue to port them 'as is' <[doug] D.GARRETT> I browsed some bulletins between you and Doug Phillips. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and eventually, I would have to step in and... We just don't have to condone personal attacks here <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do something about it. Not by my choice mind you... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but someone will eventually _ask_ me to. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I spoze a few expletives are OK, but personal attacks are no no. In a place that gets 5 feet of rain a year ? N-a-a-a-a-w <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can let it go until I get complaints... <[len] LMORGENSTERN> What cat-topic has this been in? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then, I will have to do something. You have no control over c.l.f. or FigL Dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Speaking of that, what you's all reactions to the new... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> GEnie arbitration "rules"? <[doug] D.GARRETT> Ingorance of them. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> your right gary, but I do have responsibility to what can appear on GEnie Ingorance, huh ? <[doug] D.GARRETT> (ignorance in spelling, too!) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> might be better off that way doug :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm beginning to feel the urge to hide in the woods. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is now an "official" procedure for handling debates between users and sysops on GEnie It hasn't reached that point, and probably won't considering the combatants are both given to more statesmanship than is currently being displayed <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I don't think it will either gary. Just considering how I would handle it if it did <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it was prompted by a very nasty arguement that is just now settling down <[doug] D.GARRETT> Evidently ah. ga and is supposed to stay unmentioned <[doug] D.GARRETT> My lips are sealed. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the debate is unmentionable, but the poilicies they created are going to be with us for a while <[doug] D.GARRETT> Your messages to Doug Phillips were very diplomatic at eloquent. There are some strong opinions about what dpANS should be, and as it nears completion it is reasonable to see some incampments forming <[doug] D.GARRETT> pmi, but in 25 words or less, what is dpANS ? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you want to splain it or should I gary? BASIS coming to fruition - is that too few ? <[doug] D.GARRETT> oh, so this concerns Forth (how do you get from Forth to "dp" ?) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> dp = Draft Proposed, i.e. pre-standard <[doug] D.GARRETT> ah, now I know. Thank you. 25 words are up. ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> draft proposed American National Standard <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the X3 says we are in the computer languages group <[doug] D.GARRETT> I've been amazed at all the smoke surrounding this ANSI bizness. Much cooler-headed folk in MUMPS community... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he must be having some kind of problem tonight Much noisier in the 'C' community <[doug] D.GARRETT> we go thru new standardization every 3 years or so. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the smoke is just the normal process of a child growing up <[doug] D.GARRETT> ah, thaz right, this is first time in the ANSI camp. X3J11 was _much_ nastier than X3J14 <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, the first is the worst, and now it is coming to a head <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I expect it to get _real_ nasty now <[doug] D.GARRETT> Uh... could you explain to me (25 words or less, again)... <[doug] D.GARRETT> how ANSI imprimateur will make life better for you at Forth Inc. ? I tend to fall into the Ridriguez/Petty/Wavrik camp, but try to stay neutral, or my message porting and SysOping would carry a stain. <[doug] D.GARRETT> You, too, Gary. What's it really mean for you, in real life? <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm curious, and don't know. please ga <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> an ANS Forth standard would help FORTH, Inc. "sell" Forth to places that are concerned about using "standard" language It will legitimize Forth in DoD contract bids - that is certainly significant <[doug] D.GARRETT> Very good reason! Hmm - echos of the same thought, Dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is not just DOD, but other large corporations as well DoD is definitely the bell-cow, though. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we _have been_ turned down on jobs because we didn't use a "standard" language <[doug] D.GARRETT> yeah. Come to think of it, Veterans Admin couldn't "legally"... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> DOD does have some big contracts..that's for sure <[doug] D.GARRETT> use MUMPS until ANSI kissed & blessed it. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I assume there is an ANSI standard C, yes? Also, what happens in DoD carries BIG ripples throughout the rest of government. Witness Cobol. Witness Ada. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, C has made it, but they are also very bloody because of it That was the X3J11 I refered to earlier, Doug. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'll rush right out and buy a copy :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> Uh... do most of the anti-ANSI ballyhooers NOT work for Uncle? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> speaking of buying copies...any reaction to my message that this is probably the last electronic version of the standard? X3J11 caused the same furor among 'C' proponents of K&R that X3J14 is now causing among F83 proponents <[doug] D.GARRETT> I've purposely stayed on the sidelines, ingorant (!), and not read hardcopy nor electronic versions. Sorry, Dennis. No - quite the contrary. The BIGGEST brouhau is the changing of word actions, the dropping of some, and the addition of C like structures. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is good for you doug...you're blood presure is lower :) Mostly calls for the style-sheet, Dennis <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but I answered that last night, there is no style sheet

Someone also generated one that can be filtered through nroff ( I think ????) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you seen the output of any of these translater yet? no - I'd rather send $15 to Heidi, or whoever. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not Heidi any more...Rible is taking care of it now Doug - you're the paying customer - anthing you wanna discuss ? <[doug] D.GARRETT> Not much concerning Forth. But I'm curious (nosey)... <[doug] D.GARRETT> about what other people do for a living. I know Dennis works for... <[doug] D.GARRETT> Forth Inc, but have no idea what he does. Gary is... <[doug] D.GARRETT> without any handles, other than from Arkansas... <[doug] D.GARRETT> What do y'all do, when not arguing/discussing ANSI dpANS Forth BASIS ? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> My official title is Engineering Product Coordinator, if that helps doug :) I am a field service engineer for a electro-mechanical process control manufacturer <[doug] D.GARRETT> both help fill in a little color, in the stick-figure images I have of you two. Thanx. I'm a husky stick, while you are at it. Not chubbo, just big <[doug] D.GARRETT> Dennis? Dimension, please! 6'4", 225#, mid-40's <[doug] D.GARRETT> All right! Well, for the record... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'm just a long haired bearded hippy who's suffering from mid-life bulge :( <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 5'8", ???, 35 <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm 5' 11", bulging in the middle, cover my 2-3 chins with a beard, 42 years on this planet. Viet vet, with a tolerant wife and beagle/terrier cross named Elliot (Elliot is a she) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> a she??? must be the one "t" :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> I was in USAF over there in 1970.... She's my "fuzzy-child" <[doug] D.GARRETT> Judy is my partner, and we have 4 cats. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> seperated (recently), 2 kids (my son lives with me) living on Hermosa Beach (yea!) <[doug] D.GARRETT> Dennis, did you study comp sci in college? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> majored in math, minor comp sci I walked around the Arkansas version of 'the wall' for 3 years before I discovered by accident it din't really bother me a damn bit. That is one ghost I no-longer have to fight. <[doug] D.GARRETT> Ah. The local vets (without my involvement/interest)... <[doug] D.GARRETT> are presently erecting a wall on the courthouse lawn.... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I stand on the sidelines of that issue, too. After wearing a uniform... <[doug] D.GARRETT> for too many young-tender years, I'm not much of a "joiner" in causes... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I've pretty much hoed my own row since discharge in '72, and have... <[doug] D.GARRETT> recently backed into your local civil war in Forthland... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ah, free the slaves of ANSI...I like it

I'm going to close shop here - long road trip man~ana. Any last comments for posterity ? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good night gary...you onto the road tomorrow? yeah - 480 mile roundtrip <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm too old to want to align with any camp, . Good Luck Out There, troops! <[doug] D.GARRETT> goodnite <[doug] D.GARRETT> has left. === End of Steno notes. ===