Minutes of FIGGY BAR RT Conference. Date: 04/11/91 Time: 22:28EDT Notice on door: "Minimalist" is being used as a synonym for "anti- progressive" in some ForthNet traffic. Do you concur or disagree ?" This set the tone for much of the evening's discussion. Other items discussed include the upcoming MISC conference with Charles Johnsen, free access during the MISC conference, Ans MUMPS extensions. Attendees: [[doug] D.GARRETT] [GARY-S] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [JAX] [[LEN] NMORGENSTERN] Minutes: is here. <[doug] D.GARRETT> hmmm... Hey Doug - respond to tonites question <[doug] D.GARRETT> stand by... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm not sure... can you elaborate? <[doug] D.GARRETT> I haven't read any forthnet traffic. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm a new guy, please remember... In a recent exchange between Frank earl and Mitch Bradley the subject was the inclusion/exclusion of the word defer. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I don't think I've joined ... <[doug] D.GARRETT> any religious groups yet, so I don't know the WORD is here. Mitch said the reason for the non-inclusion was a strong minimalist faction, implying minimalists are opposed to any useful but unecessary words Hi Dennis - care to respond to the ???? <[doug] D.GARRETT> I *think* I know what is meant by "minimalist".... <[doug] D.GARRETT> so the question is... <[doug] D.GARRETT> "is minimalism bad for Forth?" thaz really the question, eh? Yes , Do you agree that minimalist ==+> anti-progressive ? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there are minimalists and then there are minimalists <[doug] D.GARRETT> minimalists want to keep the kernal small, yes? yes ! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, some who use the minimalists badge are trying to stop things out of basis alltogether... <[doug] D.GARRETT> hmmm... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> then there are those who understand that they only have to minimalize the core word set I qualify as a minimalist and I state my position as not wanting a turbo-forth <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but do you care if others have turbo forth and they also are standard? NOT as long as it is in the form of extensions - the extra trappings have no place in the adopted core word-set <[doug] D.GARRETT> At the risk of putting words in his mouth, is... <[doug] D.GARRETT> Wil Baden a "minimalist", too? <[doug] D.GARRETT> Bear with me, gents. I can be a little slow... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've seen Wil go both ways over time :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> Ah, a human. I don't give a damn if you add Mount Shasta - but keep it outside the required word set <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I haven't read today's messages, but... <[doug] D.GARRETT> Well, why (in 25 words or less) do... <[doug] D.GARRETT> the "non-minimalists" ("progressives" ??) care if... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the general pattern has seemed to be Mitch against the "minimalists"... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I don't think that is fair <[doug] D.GARRETT> the kitchen sink is in the extension wing of the house... There are some, frankly, who want the migration forom C to Forth to Pascal to be essentially seamless <[doug] D.GARRETT> instead ahhh, now you've hit it!... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> The "maximalists" that I've heard, don't care if it is in the core or in an extension word set <[doug] D.GARRETT> So this is really concerned with competing against... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is the "minimalists that seem to be objecting to the words being in there at all <[doug] D.GARRETT> the big boys in the de... <[doug] D.GARRETT> (oops my screen gets scrambled with mixed messages) hmmm - my mind does, how do you keep the scramble confined to your screen <[doug] D.GARRETT> Well shux, I still straddle the fence... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> aren't you using a split screen doug? <[doug] D.GARRETT> no, Dennis. Old crosstalk circa 1984. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I quit buying software in 1984 (snort!) <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm still too new to Forth to be polarized... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> oh, too bad...you really aught to check out some of the pd stuff...a "chat" window really does help a lot :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'll eventually find time. Actually, though, I still... <[doug] D.GARRETT> use Crosstalk because I tell myself THE NEXT ... <[doug] D.GARRETT> program I use will be written by ME... <[doug] D.GARRETT> (presumably in Forth. 6 months ago it would have been C++ or... <[doug] D.GARRETT> Eric Isaacson's A86 assembler. Forth is better and more fun than assembler. <[doug] D.GARRETT> So, right now I'm a pretty low level Forth programmer... <[doug] D.GARRETT> and tend to use a minimal kernal... <[doug] D.GARRETT> but I got no argument with a bigger & better system... <[doug] D.GARRETT> as long as I can strip it to my own needs. <[doug] D.GARRETT> You gotta understand, gents... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I work in a pretty nice database environment... is here. <[doug] D.GARRETT> that already has as much kitchen sink as I'd want... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hiya jack :D <[doug] D.GARRETT> I realize that the interpretter could be written in Forth... Hi D, G , DG. <[doug] D.GARRETT> and then I'd have a MUMPS system in Forth... the... <[doug] D.GARRETT> question is, if I have such a system already in Forth... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I may as well just rename it MUMPS and go on about my business... <[doug] D.GARRETT> So. What are these problematic extensions to Forth? What do they do that makes them so controversial? respond to the question, jax ??? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'll try to be a little more genteel then :) <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Back to the subject... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> The question, IMHO, appears to be why we can't add a... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bunch of neat words to BASIS, in extention word sets... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not in the kernel. The people I hear quoting the... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> minimalists attitude seem to say this is wrong... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I think it is essential if we are going to compete... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> with the "big boys". <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the "extensions" are floating point, graphics, files, database..you name it, some people just don't want them in the standard. <[doug] D.GARRETT> Well, I can only speak from experience... jaxthinx question is to be debated by those not working in Forth professionally. <[doug] D.GARRETT> most of the extensions you mentioned, Dennis... <[doug] D.GARRETT> with the very big exception of "database"... <[doug] D.GARRETT> are NOT (I repeat NOT) in the ANS MUMPS standard... <[doug] D.GARRETT> and we get along just fine without it being "standard" <[doug] D.GARRETT> all of those extensions are so system-dependent... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> jax, "is" or "should be" discussed by nonproffesionals? <[doug] D.GARRETT> that to try to be covered by a software standard just doesn't work well I think it's a question to be mooted by non-professionals. Professionals are ... occupied with immediate problems and react with expediency. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but doug, MUMPS is a databse standard, not a general purpose standard <[doug] D.GARRETT> I use a vendor-supplied set of extensions for all the... Ideology is for the dilletante, for the most part. Slim forths are nice, fat forths are nice, medium forths are nice, depending on the problem. <[doug] D.GARRETT> bells and whistles concerning our VGA graphics... <[doug] D.GARRETT> our communications equipment, laser printers... I will make one "ideological" statement though. <[doug] D.GARRETT> MUMPS is a standard language, but our system will NOT directly... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the question is NOT what Forth's are nice, but what is "nice" for the standard? Forth is like Ralph's Pretty Good Grocery (Garrison Keillor) ... <[doug] D.GARRETT> port to another MUMPS platform... <[doug] D.GARRETT> with a significant amount of programmer intervention... If your Forth doesn't have it, you can probably do without it. What is nice for the Standard is pretty much what has been written into it. Any care to discuss specific items? <[doug] D.GARRETT> I work in an operation that is tied... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> however, I want to write standard programs, and I would like to have standard tools to do what my applications needs to do <[doug] D.GARRETT> to a specific hardware & software platform. <[doug] D.GARRETT> I have another example... <[doug] D.GARRETT> The Veterans Administration has a pd data manager... <[doug] D.GARRETT> that every MUMPS programmer is familiar with... <[doug] D.GARRETT> VA FileMan is not part of the ANS-MUMPS standard, but it is a very... <[doug] D.GARRETT> real defacto standard in my trade. So are several... <[doug] D.GARRETT> commands and functions we use every day... <[doug] D.GARRETT> that were started i n DEC MUMPS, and filtered down to... <[doug] D.GARRETT> the other vendor's MUMPS systems. These are very real standards, but <[doug] D.GARRETT> not ANS standards. My question (from this point of view)... <[doug] D.GARRETT> is who cares if the usual tools are part of ANS standard or.. <[doug] D.GARRETT> part of FIG Toolbox Number 3 "standard"?... <[doug] D.GARRETT> I you can get your community (I use the term loosely...) <[doug] D.GARRETT> to reconize a common set of words... <[doug] D.GARRETT> and then say OK, go to it. <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok, lets take that FileMan system as an example... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does it run on most MUMPS systems? If so, then... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is a "standard" application that people can use... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we can not do that today in Forth... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I would like to be able to. <[doug] D.GARRETT> Ah, NOW i begin to understand. Yes, VAFM will... <[doug] D.GARRETT> run on any MUMPS platform, because it is plain vanilla MUMPS. .. is here. <[doug] D.GARRETT> consequently, no nice graph9ics... <[doug] D.GARRETT> or a standard way to position cursor on the screen. The... <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Better late than never, I always say <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> especially when I am late! <[doug] D.GARRETT> MUMPS programmer must add those as extensions. <[doug] D.GARRETT> hi len <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that's exactly the point then doug... <[doug] D.GARRETT> But if you have more than one dialect of the basic... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> right now, the set of words that you CAN use to write.... <[doug] D.GARRETT> words to get a system up and running... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> a standard application in forth is pretty slim... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I'd like it to be a large as possible (personally :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> But you DO have all the primitives for character and block devices, yes? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you have block and emit, yes <[doug] D.GARRETT> Is there any chance all warring parties could at least agree. <[doug] D.GARRETT> on a common set of unique words, kernal or extensions? <[doug] D.GARRETT> evidently not. If "core" remains conceptually minimal and "extension" exists for the extra stuff most minimalists could live with that arrangement just fine <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is what they are trying to do :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> In my ignorance, I guess I perceive... What does a minimalist need with a standard? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that is what thy have today gary, but some seem not to be satisfied Does Chuck Moore concern himself with "standardizing" his three-key input stream? Standards are business. <[doug] D.GARRETT> that the line dividing line dividing... The purist may retreat to the wilderness to be alone with his or her angry Jehovah. . <[doug] D.GARRETT> the Kernal from the Extensions is fuzzy. <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> The nice thing about Forth is you can have it both ways. Forth is easy enough to implement. . <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> Chuck Moore will continue to do his own thing - that is why Forth was created and it is why he will ignore the standard <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is not fuzzy at all doug, just some have not appeared to have seen it ;( <[doug] D.GARRETT> something caught in your throat, Len? <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> I think the "minimal" set should NOT be truly <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> minimal, as in EFORTH. It should be a reasonable <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> small set. I can accept that e-forth is too bare I don't think Pygmy, astro or F-83 are too bare, though <[doug] D.GARRETT> I've been challenging myself with Bob Illyes riForth. very bare. <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> I am reminded of the old Jewish story about the Rabbi <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> who gave a sermon consisting of 2 words, "God Exists" <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> Some thought it was too short... <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> but there were others who thought it was too short. <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> blew it. I should have said "too long"!!!! <[doug] D.GARRETT> So I reckon been working with a minimalists' system... <[doug] D.GARRETT> and didn't even know I was in the middle of a crisis! <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> I don't consider Pygmy minimalist <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> It has vocabularies, file management, an editor and <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> lots of other features. I likke the cover that FD once had of a Forth and Pascal (I think) programmer observing creation ... I think the minimal Forth concept has been illustrated sufficiently that it is reasonably acheivable. What we need now are functional Workstatio n Forths, even standalone Workstation Forth OSes. <[doug] D.GARRETT> come on, Gary, I wanna know the rest! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I agree jack, the minimal forth has been proven and is fairly standard, but what standards does the "big" forth have to work with? To the Pascal programmer it was not elaborate enough, to the Forth programmer it was too elaborate ANS 91 There is still great elegance in simplicity <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> maybe jack, but did they go far enough? can they ever go far enough for that type of system? <[doug] D.GARRETT> Organizing you mavericks is like herding kittens> Woof. That's far enough for this review. Next time, maybe more. review ??? adios jax No, I am answering Dennis's question! NEXT THURSDAY - IN CONFERENCE Charles Johnsen of MISC (Dennis *did* sound rhetorical! <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> agreed jack, we need to get it past the next steps before we can extend it :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> hey, one more time. what was the official question? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes folks, and next week's RTC is FREE!!!!!! Did anyone read Charlie Johnsen's paper about MISC (Mutable Instruction JAX was kind enough to post Cherles paper that serves as the conference prelude Set computer)? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the Bulletin Board will be free all day (6pm to 6am) Thursday and Sunday What's the occasion? <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and the RTC's Thursday and Sunday nights will be free <[doug] D.GARRETT> oo! IT is _strongly_ recommended you read the paper before the conference and come prepared <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> this is part of $pring Break! <[LEN] NMORGENSTERN> will do! <[doug] D.GARRETT> homework shux! This will be a hardware conference !~!! <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'll be there. <[doug] D.GARRETT> Easter DAYLITE Time, yes? :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> I'm on Eastern STANDARD, year round. :) Believe it or not the old Signetics joke about a write-only chip becomes reality <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes but Eastern...not Easter...that season's just about past :) You have to come to the conference if you want to kknow what good awrite-only chip is <[doug] D.GARRETT> I signed up for FIG last month... <[doug] D.GARRETT> when do I get my secret decoder ring? Last call for last shots on the official transcript <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, got you letter doug...and passed it alone the chain :) <[doug] D.GARRETT> Or a membership card with a membership number... <[Dennis] D.RUFFER> decoder ring...you mean we have one?????

steno closing ... tick <[doug] D.GARRETT> Jax BBS asks if I'm a member (yes)... tickk <[doug] D.GARRETT> but it also asks for my number (I don't know it!) === End of Steno notes. ===