Item 4572890 89/03/20 10:01 From: STENO.POOL RTC Stenographer Pool To: NMORGENSTERN N. Leonard Morgenstern Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference. >From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe Date: 03/19/89 Time: 21:32EST Attendees: [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] Minutes: is here. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Hi Kevin <[Kevin] APPERT> hi Len. How's things <[Kevin] APPERT> ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Very good. I was at the West Coast Faire yesterday <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Lots of action in the Forth booth. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Did you make it? <[Kevin] APPERT> it's not what it used to be and never was. <[Kevin] APPERT> nope , never have <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, it's declining every year, but still worth attending <[Kevin] APPERT> interest in forth? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have a new comm program. Are ;you getting skipped lines? <[Kevin] APPERT> noooooooo <[Kevin] APPERT> what name comm program <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Good. Then it's a local phenomenon. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Mirror III <[Kevin] APPERT> I know mirror, crosstalk clone <[Kevin] APPERT> I use it to talk to my prom programmer <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Upgraded from Mirror II. <[Kevin] APPERT> yup <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> How do you mean talk to your prom programmer? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Kevin] APPERT> because I won't waste time writing a vt100 emulator <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Then you use it as a terminal. <[Kevin] APPERT> and it doesn't have a 'stupid' mode (the prom programmer) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Lots of action there <[Kevin] APPERT> it reports its status all over the place with cursor positioning... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Did you get the line that said "back to the booth" <[Kevin] APPERT> and automating it would nescitate ... <[Kevin] APPERT> no did not get line ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm switching to normal mode <[Kevin] APPERT> decomutating all that stuff. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> %Can't turn it off <[Kevin] APPERT> normal? a forth programmer says normal? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> What's normal is what I think is good for me. <[Kevin] APPERT> right <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Egocentric but definable. <[Kevin] APPERT> you bet your ... you can't turn it off. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Most definitions of normal are untestable. <[Kevin] APPERT> chuckle <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Shouldn't I be able to turn it off? <[Kevin] APPERT> no, it controls you! you paid money for a black box... <[Kevin] APPERT> and in the box are deamons! <[Kevin] APPERT> that'l teach you :) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, it's a little man <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you know Maelzel's chess player? About 100 years ago... <[Kevin] APPERT> dwarf? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> this guy went all over Europe with a chess machine. It had <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> a full sized man in it who had lost both arms and legs... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> in battle! <[Kevin] APPERT> now we have computer ... <[Kevin] APPERT> chess matches which ... <[Kevin] APPERT> exclude human players. <[Kevin] APPERT> have you watched 'tour of duty; on the moronoscope? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yep. F83 was hot hot hotat the Faire. Sold about 4-5 copies in the time I was there! <[Kevin] APPERT> FPC available? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Sorry I meant F-PC <[Kevin] APPERT> should give it away! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 4 disks for $20 <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Fig has to make a little, and <[Kevin] APPERT> I plan to do so for heads of EE dept.s at major universities <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> there's way over a megabyte of arc'ed files! <[Kevin] APPERT> good heads that is <[Kevin] APPERT> one 1.4 meg floppy! <[Kevin] APPERT> I'll repro them myself if I have to <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It's public domain. But $20 is reasonable when comparedto the nuisance and expense of downloading. <[Kevin] APPERT> this is true. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> The manual is on disk, too. <[Kevin] APPERT> the one Ting is selling? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> One of them. The other is only in book form, I believe <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have been trying it out. A few minor documentation errors but otherwise fine <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Kevin] APPERT> there is a user's manual and a tech ref. the user's mn is on disk I guess <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think so. <[Kevin] APPERT> the doc's probably matched... <[Kevin] APPERT> a previous incarnation... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Actually the technical manual is more accurate. <[Kevin] APPERT> I remember two months...\ <[Kevin] APPERT> ago they said absolutely frozen! ... <[Kevin] APPERT> and last month zimmer showed up and said 'maintenance release' <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I think it is frozen, but there will have to be bug reports... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> if not actual fixes. <[Kevin] APPERT> but he added paths and a few other things... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> "Paths"? <[Kevin] APPERT> I don't object. You can not freze Tom Zimmer <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Kevin] APPERT> yes, when you look for a file, you look along a path <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ting was telling us his problems trying to hold to the freeze! <[Kevin] APPERT> when? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Just last week. But Tom had paths a long time ago <[Kevin] APPERT> no problem. I long ago joined the Tom Z. 'forth of the month club' <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Kevin] APPERT> if Tom can not walk on water, it must be a problem with the water ;) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Ting was twisting Tom's arm as recently as a couple of months ago <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Tom was insisting he wanted some more changes! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I wish I could write like that! <[Kevin] APPERT> when I use a Tom Z. forth for production work, I simply don't take the code... <[Kevin] APPERT> to his constant revisions.... <[Kevin] APPERT> The product you start a project with is the product you end with... <[Kevin] APPERT> and this seems to work for us. <[Kevin] APPERT> It gives me the shakes to think ... <[Kevin] APPERT> what some of the new chums will do with FPC... <[Kevin] APPERT> text files can promote run on definitions... <[Kevin] APPERT> and bad habits... <[Kevin] APPERT> that screens preclude... <[Kevin] APPERT> I predict some very un-forthlike code. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> aybe sook for the individual programmer <[Kevin] APPERT> I personally like forths that run out of memory ... <[Kevin] APPERT> in addition. I think it was Chuck that was quoted as saying... <[Kevin] APPERT> " if you can' <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (start over) <[Kevin] APPERT> t do it in 64 k, you don't understand the problem" <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ... <[Kevin] APPERT> from where?| <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you have and you like <[Kevin] APPERT> ga <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but a published language is something else. It needs to be <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> fixed for a time at least, say a few years. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Also, if merely changing from screens to seq. files will <[Kevin] APPERT> I can handle freezing the thing myself, as I said <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> make that much difference, Forth is more unstable than I think <[Kevin] APPERT> it's not forth, it's the philosophy behind it! <[Kevin] APPERT> have you read Brodie's 'Thinking Forth' ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> My philosophy is pragmatic. If it works, It's good <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have Brodies's book <[Kevin] APPERT> but it's so easy to use Forth in a fashion which does not work! <[Kevin] APPERT> that's why forth has a bad rep in so many cases... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> True, but people write bad English all the time <[Kevin] APPERT> C or pascal programmers... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and you can't criticize the language for that. <[Kevin] APPERT> who do not know the first thing about using the ... <[Kevin] APPERT> Forth environment object to it because... <[Kevin] APPERT> it's a loaded gun... <[Kevin] APPERT> with which they procede to shoot off their departments' feet... <[Kevin] APPERT> I do not criticize forth for that... <[Kevin] APPERT> I sometimes question our desire ... <[Kevin] APPERT> ( my own desire also) to destribute it... <[Kevin] APPERT> far and wide. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you remember Basic English? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It was an attempt to reduce the language to a few hundred (about 800) <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> words. <[Kevin] APPERT> brb <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> To me Pascal, C, etc. etc. are like Basic English <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> whereas Forth is the full unabridged. <[Kevin] APPERT> . <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> You could say anything you wanted in Basic English <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but you had to be very clever, and it was <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> not very stylish. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> . <[Kevin] APPERT> I read an article somewhere... <[Kevin] APPERT> the other day in which... <[Kevin] APPERT> some radio journalist... <[Kevin] APPERT> used some 'stackware' ... <[Kevin] APPERT> to create a system ... <[Kevin] APPERT> for displaying election results... <[Kevin] APPERT> in a few evenings at home... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> SF Chronicle <[Kevin] APPERT> yup <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ga <[Kevin] APPERT> mercury in my case. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Was that in Forth? <[Kevin] APPERT> it may be hard to explain why... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (No it was Mac Hypercard!) <[Kevin] APPERT> that sort of trivial solution is not available to ... <[Kevin] APPERT> every problem in a few years... <[Kevin] APPERT> and that brings me to ... <[Kevin] APPERT> the greatest of the black boxes... <[Kevin] APPERT> neural nets... <[Kevin] APPERT> where the contents of the black box were not... <[Kevin] APPERT> even placed there by any thinking person! I will not trust my. .. <[Kevin] APPERT> life to those things... <[Kevin] APPERT> when they are starting to use them for... <[Kevin] APPERT> medical treatment or air traffic control... <[Kevin] APPERT> I will abstain! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'm pragmatic. There will never be error-free... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Von Neumann type program written by a human, so the question is not, "Are neural net programs safe" <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but the question is, will they be better than a <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Von Neumann type program written by a human? <[Kevin] APPERT> read any Heinlein? [Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes, one of my favorites. <[Kevin] APPERT> in 'Friday' one of his characters... <[Kevin] APPERT> talks about a 'created being'... <[Kevin] APPERT> for piloting aircraft... <[Kevin] APPERT> and one reason... <[Kevin] APPERT> why he hopes they will never come to pass... <[Kevin] APPERT> remember? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> It's been a long time since I read him! <[Kevin] APPERT> have you read 'Friday'? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I don't remember it. <[Kevin] APPERT> Would you like to? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Yes <[Kevin] APPERT> What is your address? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> 304 Rheem Blvd. Moraga CA 94556 <[Kevin] APPERT> it's on it's way. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx <[Kevin] APPERT> have you read "To Sail Beyond The Sunset" ? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> No, I don't think so. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I have read sci fi on and off for about 55 years now <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and at some periods, I read almost nothing else. <[Kevin] APPERT> it's a foul rotten dirty shame that people like R.A.H. have to die. <[Kevin] APPERT> I will miss him. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Regrettably, we all have to. <[Kevin] APPERT> ah well, <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Do you get double transmission from me? <[Kevin] APPERT> no, looks fine, with type-ohs <[Kevin] APPERT> by the way, some people take offense at the label... <[Kevin] APPERT> 'sci-fi' applied to what they feel is serious literature. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Right. Actually, back in the 40's science fiction. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> was the only genre that published serious magazine literature! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> ! <[Kevin] APPERT> I once so a person belted square in the face for using that term <[Kevin] APPERT> oops, saw <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Asimov has a book on the history of science fiction <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> and he goes into the term sci-fi. I will send you that <[Kevin] APPERT> well, I had a lot of fun tonight... <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> if you give me your address. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> & I need it for the NB FIG mailing, in any case. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> (Even trade) <[Kevin] APPERT> address deleted <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanks <[Kevin] APPERT> no Jax or anything tonight? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Jax is on vacation. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Colorado is beautiful in the winter and in the summer <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> but not in the slush! <[Kevin] APPERT> Building 255 is the only place Lockheed owns with its own stained glass cupola! <[Kevin] APPERT> we don't really own it, but just a long term rental. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I'll have to see it some time <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Been good talking to you! <[Kevin] APPERT> once a month more or less, we have a seminar. I will mail you a flyer. <[Kevin] APPERT> same here. <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanx, again <[Kevin] APPERT> fare you well. good night <[Kevin] APPERT> has left. === End of Steno notes. === =END=