Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 03/10/88   Time: 22:37EST
Attendees:
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[S.WHEELER]
[JAX]
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[lenoard] LMORGENSTERN]

Minutes:
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER>
<S.WHEELER> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hello there
<S.WHEELER> Hi.  What goes on here?  This is my first time in a conference.
<JAX> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Welcome, WELCOME TO THE FIGGY BAR
<JAX> woof
<S.WHEELER> woof yourself, jack
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> HELLO ALSO JACK
<JAX> Cheeze it guys! My boss is in da room!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> your boss!!! Well welcome also boss of Jack!
<S.WHEELER> You already welcomed me.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> OH
<GARY-S> is here.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> You are Jacks Boss?
<JAX> You wanted a board,  or was that scot squires
<S.WHEELER> As of the past week, yes.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Scott's looking for a board
<JAX> we sell em
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well gee, he aint here
<JAX> yet
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he usually doesn't show up until late at night
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but watch him surprise me this time
<S.WHEELER>
<JAX> You know, GEnie is amazing in some ways ...
<S.WHEELER> How long does this normally last?
<JAX> think of all the users on line. The amiga conf is tonite, too
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes
<[Gary] GARY-S> sure is slowing log-on !
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> an hour at least (is it Scott?)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hadn't noticed, and I snuck in only a few minutes ago
<JAX>
<[Gary] GARY-S> maybe I'm just lucky that way
<[Gary] GARY-S> Jack, are you peddlin' the super-8
<JAX> Thought we could maybe rewrite Genie in Forth!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> took me less than 4 minutes to log in, send mail, and get 
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> this set up
<LMORGENSTERN> is here.
<JAX> Not yet
<JAX> Super8 is next.
<[Gary] GARY-S> What board?
<JAX> Meanwhile Tiny88
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hello Lenoard
<JAX> and others. Ask SWheeler
<JAX> .
<[Gary] GARY-S> ask wheeler what?
<JAX> boards. what kine boards, haole.
<S.WHEELER> Don't bother, I don't know anything.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ? jack
<[Gary] GARY-S> do you talk to Gary Feierbach any?
<JAX> Yes, about four times when I bought the board.
<[Gary] GARY-S> still @??
<JAX> huh?
<[Gary] GARY-S> I was just woindering if he might be pursuaded to hold a 
<[Gary] GARY-S> conference ?
<JAX> On genie? You gonna give him free time?
<[Gary] GARY-S> sure
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes we will!
<JAX> OrI'll tell him.
<JAX> OOps
<[Gary] GARY-S> please do
<JAX> What are you guys up to.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we can arrange a "guest account" for any speaker
<JAX> Workwise, I mean
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that way he doesn't have to pay to speak
<JAX> He 'd love to peddle his new board!
<[Gary] GARY-S> I would want some forth edu talk, too
<JAX> Of course.
<JAX> The board is an education itself
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I don't care whose he's pushing
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so long as he is willing to talk to us
<[Gary] GARY-S> let me know when, where to call him, once you have talked to him
<JAX> Why shouldn't he? Has he got an attitude?
<JAX> The guy you should get on here is TING
<JAX> Ting is boy genius.
<[Gary] GARY-S> him too, but one at a time
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> TING HATES MODEMS!
<JAX> Foo.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hasn't figured that they're worth the trouble yet
<JAX> You see what he said about the 80386
<S.WHEELER> What was that?
<[Gary] GARY-S> is that ok with you jack - fronting Feirbach and getting back 
<[Gary] GARY-S> to us ?
<JAX> Glad to but why not call him youse'f
<JAX>  ...?
<[Gary] GARY-S> numba
<JAX> Inner Access ... let me dig in a drawer
<[Gary] GARY-S> you don't mind Dennis ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> not at all Gary,...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I sent off 15 more letters today
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you seem to be doing better at promoting these things thatn 
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I have done
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> great!
<JAX> 415 574-8295
<[Gary] GARY-S> told you I'm a button thumper
<[Gary] GARY-S> thanks jack - got it!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what dead time?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Jack, what did TING say about the 386?
<S.WHEELER> Yeah, was he putting his 128-bit Forth on it?
<JAX> Buy his book FORTH NOTEBOOK VOL 2
<JAX> He says ...
<JAX> that the 8080 was an "eight bit ding dong" ...
<JAX> the Z80 was an " Eight bit enhanced ding-dong" ...
<JAX> the 80286 is " a sixteen bit ding dong" ...
<JAX> the PDP-11 is a 16 bit stack oriented machine" ...
<JAX> the 80386 is a "thirty-two bit ding dong"
<JAX> and went on to praise the 68000 NC4000 and VAX
<JAX> .
<JAX> oh yeah
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> does that mean we're all playing with our dingalings?
<JAX> he said ...
<S.WHEELER> I only do that professionally.  I have a 68000 at home.
<JAX> the 6502/6800 was "8 bit first generation micro"
<JAX> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Why did he leave out the 8088? Maybe
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> he thinks it's a good chip? ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> obvious he doesn't think much of INTEL
<JAX> he lumped it with the 80x86
<JAX> he uses it but doestn approve
<JAX> he just discovered the only use he has ever found ..
<JAX> for segments! ...
<JAX> He is writing as you mentioned a 128 bit FORTH
<JAX> using a segment reg as IP !!! HA! :-)
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 128 bits huh...
<JAX> I gues those C guys ...
<JAX> think Forth guys are dull ...
<JAX> but TING was onto Motorola way ahead of the pack.
<JAX> .
<JAX> sorry stepped on you denn!
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no problem
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I just wonder how big his dictionary will be :-)
<JAX> 1 meg
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I really hate to see this...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> memory hog stuff we're getting into...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 2 Megs to run OS/2....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I've heard 5 Meg to do anything serious...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sure seems strange that I only had...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 64k in my PC when I bought it...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what is the world coming to?...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or is IBM just selling chips? :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I remember when I got 32 k on my Sol
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> and had more memory than anyone I knew. But, that
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> 32 k cost more than 5 meg would now
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> adjusted for inflation!
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> .
<JAX> Dunno I have my Super8 hooked up to my Z80.
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is it working now Jack?
<JAX> yes.
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Lenoard, I don't want to think how much I have spent...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> on memory in the past that now cost pennies...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but Jack, are you going to tell us more...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> about what the super-8 can do?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<JAX> Next conf I have talked enough for a while!
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well then what shal we talk about?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> we got a new sysop gang
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I am putting
<[Gary] GARY-S> take a bow leonard
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> together
<JAX> rah
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Thanks! I'll do my best!
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Jax said something about Forth
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> programmers being dull. But never a
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> dull moment. Forth will be the death
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> of me, but not from boredom!
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> .
<JAX> Forth will be the death of " C".
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I hope not Lenoard!...
<JAX> .
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I hope so Jack...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but I am sorry folks...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I should have introduced Lenoard when he came in...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Introducing our newest sysop...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you all know and love him...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and soon he will be able to do anything also....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> even walk on water like the rest of us :-)...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> would you like to say anything about what...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you want to get out of this Lenoard?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Sorry, I didn't realize you were waiting
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> for me! I love to write. Actually, I am a
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> poor writer, but I am a great rewriter,
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> if I may be permitted to say so myself.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I hope I can develop more fluency.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<S.WHEELER> I have some manuals you can rewrite, if you like.
<S.WHEELER> .
<JAX> Forth needs dignified individuals Len to represent us.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I meant polishing what I write. What
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I upload is usually after 3 or 4 revisions.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Does that mean Dennis and I should quit, Jack ?
<JAX> And I should have my output redirected to the NULL: device :-)
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I may give a dignified impression, but you didn't
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> know me in my younger days.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you'r basically a programmer lenoard....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> so you MUST have looked like the rest of us :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<JAX> My wife says "I'll bet young LMorg. was a wild and crazy Fortran 
<JAX> programmer
<JAX> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> No, I was already almost 50 when I learned Fortran.
<JAX> How did you get started in computers?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Permanente Medical Group got a huge grant
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> to computerize medical records. We
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> started with several IBM 1401's and
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> eventually had 2 IBM 360/70's working back
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> to back!  I learned Fortran and
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> IBM 1401 assembler, which were my first
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> languages. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> when was that lenoard?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> About 1964 or so
<JAX> What kind of instructions did the 1401 have?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> It was called autocoder, and ran from punched
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> cards. Instructions varied from 1 to 7
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> bytes, and were flagged by a 9th bit which,
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> when on, indicated a "word mark" to
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> start the instruction. There was no stack. ga
<S.WHEELER> Gotta go, folks.  Baby's been fussing.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> It was a decimal machine, not an octal.
<S.WHEELER> has left.
<JAX> So long
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> A very strange architecture. ga
<JAX> Sounds like serial communications ... a "stop bit"
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Yes.
<JAX> Of course the first commercial computers were built by phoneco people no?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Possibly. The 1401 rented for 12000
<JAX> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> dollars a month, a huge sum in those days
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> and the company couldn't supply enough of them.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<JAX> What do you have now?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I have a PC compatible, and also a Chameleon that
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> runs MS/DOS and CP/M I am getting a
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Macintosh SE soon. ga
<JAX> ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> lenoard, you said you also built a SOL...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> how'd you make the switch from 1401 to SOL?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Yes. But There were many years between!
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<JAX> What is your favorite FORTH?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I haven't used enough to judge. I started with Timmins 
<[lenoard] LMORGENSTERN> Forth
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> which was Fig Forth with a few trivial modifications.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> Then I got
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> STOIC. When I got into the PC end of
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> things, I got F83, and later MicroMotion.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I would like to learn more Forths. ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Any idea what Mitch Timmins is doing these days ?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> No
<[Gary] GARY-S> Is he stilll in San Diego?
<[Gary] GARY-S> anyone ?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> an actual STOIC user huh lenoard
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what was that like?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> It had a lot of virtues
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> The version I had was for the North Star
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> It uses text files, its own operating system
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> and is very much like ordinary forth.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> One difference it that if you precede
<JAX> What was diff?
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> a word name with a tic (without a space)
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> it would act like a string, and hunt the word.
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> "hunt the string"?
<JAX> That is like REPTIL nowadays ...
<JAX> Where metachars are parsed, unlike FORTH where they are nearly verboten
<JAX> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I plan to study the various Forths on
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> DOSOS and Mac, and write a beginners' prelude,
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> to assist in learning. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you may want to talk with John Hall...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> he is thinking of doing some kind of FIG kernel again....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or something like that....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> or are you thinking more of add ons...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to existing Forth versions?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I don't know. My guess is that some kind
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> of kernel, with different add-ons for each
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> machine. But not too far, or we are back
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> where we started. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> have you looked at Martin's Preludes?....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they get a good cross section of machines....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and Forths
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> The difference is that I want mine to be oriented for 
<[lenoard] LMORGENSTERN> beginners,
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and Jacks the winner! :-)
<JAX> try that one type /rol
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> whereas Martin is aiming for pros.ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sorry about that lenoard...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> jack just found the /rol command...
<JAX> ah the jernt was getting too quiet
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and I HAD to laugh
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but yes...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Martin is directing his stuff at the professional...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but his stuff is SO easy to load...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> on top of whtever you've got...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it wouldn't be too tough....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> to turn it into a menu driven...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> self modifier...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> that asks what system this is...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and loads the proper things...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> maybe usable by a beginner....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> unless you want to start at COM level.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> .
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> ok
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> I will look into that. I hadn't seriously
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> considered it before now. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well it is...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 22:36EST (that's /time jack :-)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it's past closing time.
<JAX> play craps betcha $foobar!
<[leonard] LMORGENSTERN> has left.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> anyone want to continue?
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I win!
<JAX> gn'ite!!!
<JAX> has left.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> good night
<[Gary] GARY-S> has left.
=== End of Steno notes. ===