Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 01/11/90   Time: 22:02EST

Attendees:
[[Bess] PRESS16]
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[[Doug] D.PHILIPS2]
[[Dave] OLORIN]
[GARY-S]

Minutes:

<D.RUFFER> ok, I'll be leader I guess

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Go for it.

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> I am looking for Aladdin-like software for the Mac.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Hows it going with FPC3.5 (if that isn't too painful to
                    ask)?

<D.RUFFER> Hadil, Aladdin Inc, is working on a Mac version, but may be a
                    little while before they get it done

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> BRB

<PRESS16> is here.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Administrativia:  What does /BLANK,/XBLANK really do?

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi Dennis.This isn't so bad now.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> uh, I think they add blank line

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Hi!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Welcome Elizabeth

<[Bess] PRESS16> hi

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi. Elizabeth. You're talking next week, right?

<[Bess] PRESS16> right (by the way, real name is Elizabeth Rather)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I posted her bio in the Bulletin Board, if your
                    interested

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> M400

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Elizabeth, when you upload the 20page highlights

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> M605

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> could you also include info on how to get a copy

<[Bess] PRESS16> ask dennis

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Oops. Sorry about that...

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> of the BASIS.  I ported your message that contained its
                    cost over to comp.lang.forth, but your message didn't
                    say how to order the basis. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it's ready to go, and I will upload it tonight

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Great!

<[Bess] PRESS16> send chk for $10 to Forth Vendors Group c/o me at FORTH,
                    Inc... 111 N. sepulveda blvd, manhattan beach CA, 90266

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I will also mention the address,

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Thanks Dennis.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> do you need it in a BB message also so it gets ported?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> H (Spaz!)  No, i can down load it and make it into a
                    message.  Everyday when I check the BB for new stuff, I
                    also check the library for new stuff, so if its
                    appropriately labeled, I'll grab it. ga

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> ok, I'll append the address to the summary what we
                    going to talk about tonight, or should I just make
                    something up?

<GARY-S> is here.

<[Bess] PRESS16> what are you going to want to talk about next week?  I can
                    study hi gary

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Hi Gary Has anyone played with Pygmy 1.2 yet?

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Hi. Gary (Might as well...)

<[Bess] PRESS16> what is it?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Pygmy is a CMForth for the PC written by Frank Sargent

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> It's Frank Sargent's PD Forth for PCs

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Thanks, it was on the tip of my tongue.

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Just got MacForth+. Extremely cool.

<GARY-S> BIG PHONE line probs - sorry folks

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, latest update works on all monitors (haven't heard
                    any complaints :-)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Has anyone modified a PC forth to work when...

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Still waiting for the standard...

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> the PC is being accessed via COM1 (modem)???

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> So I can write HadilForth :-)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> [This seems like its going to be my 2nd project.]

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the PCMODEM stuff that I have posted can be set up as a
                    remote terminal if that is what you are talking about

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Well, what I want to do is modify pygmy so that it

<[Bess] PRESS16> We can use modem, COM1 or other serial as extra users on a
                    PC...

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Don't know anything about Pygmy...

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> uses 'standard input and standard output'

<[Bess] PRESS16> We teach classes w/ 16 users on serial muxes

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> instead of accessing the console/keyboard all the time.

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> But you'll have to vector KEY and EMIT to use standard
                    io

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> ga That's what I suspected.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no, you can't go into DOS, but all of Forth is
                    available

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Blox too, no doubt (Sigh......)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> It looks like project 2a is going to be adding streams
                    to pygmy

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you can set up DOS to do it with the CTTY command in
                    DOS

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> then project 2b can do revectoring of KEY/EMIT

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Streams shouldn't be too hard via INT 21H.

<GARY-S> NOW the Unix/Forth group is caloring for an emacs type editor

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for streams, check out Martin Tracy's EVAL code it does
                    it using the existing BLOCK interface

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Where do I find this 'EVAL code?

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Gary: Yah. Not a bad idea, for Forth.

<GARY-S> TOO BIG, Hadil

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in the library, I think it might be called STREAMS.ARC

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> What do you mean?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I'll poke about there abit, anything else I should look
                    for? Gary:  Naw, emacs isn't that big! Or, it doesn't
                    have to be, anyway.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> depends on what you want Doug :-)

<GARY-S> The source is 100K ! I've written 6k Forth kernels !

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Well, examples of forth code that interface with DOS
                    files would be useful!

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> The emacs KERNEL isn't that big... All the source is
                    written in LISP; kernel...

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> search for FILE keyword

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Is the LISP interpreter.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> And there are only about 10billion variants of emacs to
                    consider Dennis: Ok.

<[Bess] PRESS16> The FILES wordset in BASIS should be a good beginning. Chk
                    it out.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Will have to order BASIS first!  ;-)

<[Bess] PRESS16> :-)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we don't have a public domain example of it yet

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> How many incarnations of BASIS after this?

<[Bess] PRESS16> God knows

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Just keep revising that document till everyone is too
                    tired to care anymore :-)

<[Bess] PRESS16> we hoped we'd be done by now.

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Well, I'll wait, I guess.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is there a official cut off point?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> It's amusing to read back issues of F.D. and see 'done'
                    dates.

<[Bess] PRESS16> no.  exhaustion by participant's?

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Dennis: One cutoff point is when... EVERYBODY's code is
                    broken :-)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Its really tempting to ask stuff that should wait till
                    next week, esp. since I'll have to miss then :-(

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> tonight's notes will get posted also

<[Bess] PRESS16> oh, fire away.  I need the practice

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Well, I'm curious as to how it was decided that it was
                    appropriate to consider an ANSI std. for Forth?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are we still there Bess is having technical
                    difficulties brb

<[Bess] PRESS16> people havepeople have been talking bout it since 84.  in
                    86 we said why wait

<[Hadil] H.SABBAGH> Well, gotta go. G'nite all. has left.

<[Bess] PRESS16> it seemed as though things were stabilazing around forth83
                    but it had problems that needed fixing particularly
                    cell size dependency, etc. ga

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> AhAh.  And how many/who approached ANSI?  I'e not
                    gotten far enough back thru the back issues of F.D. to
                    catch the beginning.  Is it documented there? ga

<[Bess] PRESS16> about 12 people incl. LMI, CSI, IBM, MCI, Chuck, Greg B.,
                    Martin T., others... met at FORTH, inc in oct 6 and
                    decided to submit a proposal to ASI. ga

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Ok.  Is it just coincidence that the 'C' standard was
                    happening about the same time?  ga

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> some of it is in 4D, ther comments are here in the
                    standards library, and still more in Rochester
                    proceedings

<[Bess] PRESS16> no, C had been meeting 5 yrs already.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Is the C standard done yet?

<[Bess] PRESS16> yes, just got the final notice today.

<GARY-S> lord yes

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> 5 years huh <smile>

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Its almA long and winding road...

<[Bess] PRESS16> Took them 7 by the time they were done, and when they
                    started...

<GARY-S> People joke about Forth-99 , maybe it ain't all that funny

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Prophetic perhaps.

<[Bess] PRESS16> they said they were just going to republish K&R.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> You don't know the POWER of the Dark Side. Do you have
                    any feel for the difference in size between the forth
                    and C committees, in terms of raw numbers of
                    participants?

<GARY-S> IF they had simply removed K&R ambiguities...

<[Bess] PRESS16> RE dark side--FORTRAN 8x is out for public review,...

<GARY-S> but it didn't work that way

<[Bess] PRESS16> and there have been over 1,000 pages of comment, all of
                    which... the poor committee has to respond to.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> And have any lessons been learned from the C effort
                    that might save yens some grief?

<GARY-S> not as loong as ANSI is the affiliation

<OLORIN> is here.

<[Bess] PRESS16> yes, try to keep it simple.  So many folks want us to
                    invent... the perfct language.  That will take 100 yrs.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hi dave

<[Dave] OLORIN> Hullo

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and it probably wouldn't be Forth by then

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Yes, X3J11 got burned on the Trigraph stuff.  I assume
                    that X3J14 isn't

<[Bess] PRESS16> Sorry, have to go.  Been fun.  CU next week

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> going to touch something like that at all!

<GARY-S> THink how long we've been reinventing English :-}

<[Bess] PRESS16> has left.

<GARY-S> X3/J14 has some hot spots that will keep the pot boiling just as
                    vigorously

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and a bunch of antagonists too

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Has a position been  taken about levels of standard.
                    (The term I want is eluding me)
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Yes, there is statments to that effect in the basis

<[Dave] OLORIN> What is the status of an ''electronic BASIS''?

<GARY-S> zip

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> layers peX3J11 decided to avoid that for various
                    reasons... did X3J14 consider those, or should I wait
                    until I can read the BASIS?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> under discussion even now

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> [I was under the impression that ANSI was firm about
                    electronic publication, is that true? ]

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> there is firm and then there is firm, I can't say much
                    more right yet

<[Dave] OLORIN> (suddenly a deathly silence falls over the room)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can tell you that editing the basis summary was a
                    real pain

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Well, has anyone heard from Wil after last sundays
                    foray?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> no, did he go away mad?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> You mean deciding what to highlight, or the process
                    itself?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I mean getting rid of the highlighting

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> No, just tired.  I get the impression he's not a fast
                    typist.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> they use many special fonts and other word processing
                    tricks that just do not translate to ASCII

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> You mean you didn't write  a little forth programt o do
                    it? :-) :-)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what I ended up with was not near as pretty, but it is
                    pure ASCII no streams in PolyForth, remember <grin>

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Ga!  Bit Bangers!  I want to write unix-like stream
                    tools!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I have word processors that do a much better job than I
                    could ever do with a program

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> ([I don't want to duplicate the programs, just the
                    style.]

<GARY-S> oooo- doug , let's tell Peter to post his code !

<[Dave] OLORIN> (be back soon)

<[Dave] OLORIN> has left.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Who is Peter?

<GARY-S> de Silva the wolf

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I asked him to post the 'vi' code, but got no answer.
                    Or do you mean something else?
<GARY-S> that's it !

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> ga We'll see.  He doesn't like the GEnie influx, so I
                    don't know how well

<GARY-S> The forth editor with vi syntax

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> he likes me.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the GEnie flux debate should have been appeased by the
                    seperate cat

<GARY-S> We are starting to get some good two-way traffic on both ends

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> (NO, GEnie -> comp.lang.forth).

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> are you posting the whole thing Doug?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Finally!  I donGod No!  I had sort out the useful stuff

<GARY-S> J Wavrik replied to you and F.Sergeant replied to the SQRT query
                    with a header

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> and dump the rest on the floor.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> actually, only the usenet cat really should be ported
                    now that we've done that that was the intention

<GARY-S> Dennis - Doug is porting to Usenet - the cat 18 doesn't help him

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I cross posted the bio on Elizabeth because I thought
                    it was an interesting bit of history.

<OLORIN> is here.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> what about Wavrik?

<GARY-S> Wavrik responede on Usenet to ForthNet points

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I thought that was one of the reasons for cat 18, was
                    to cut down on the noise going out to usenet

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Rotate 180 degrees.

<GARY-S> I left e-mail on ECFB for jerry to seperate it there, too - sure
                    hope he does

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> hum, must have been my mistaken impression

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Query:  Are linked lists something that down much in
                    Forth, or are they a sign that you're not thinking 'in
                    forth' yet? 'that down' -> 'that are done'

<GARY-S> not very forthish

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the dictionary is just one big linked list

<GARY-S> forth is a linked dictionary echo - echo - echo

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but it only has thread in one direction

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> But for user data structures?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I've used them when they are appropriate
<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> If you wanted to keep around the equivalent of a 'set',
                    is there a trick commonly used in forth?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> the capability exists in PolyForth's DBMS also a set of
                    what

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> (A set of integers)

<[Dave] OLORIN> I've got them in my bag of tricks. I use them when I need
                    them.

<GARY-S> In your pile of Forth Dimensions - read the INteger Method

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> put them into a structure (ie CREATE) and let the
                    dictionary keep track of them

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Dennis, I'm not quite following you yet. Gary:  Any
                    idea which volume, or...even... issue? (volume would
                    help )

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> CREATE INTEGERS 1 C, 2 C, 3 C, 4 C, etc

<GARY-S> Doug - I think I see your direction, check out the Integer Method
                    and Quans BRB

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I don't think I'm following what you want to do yet
                    Doug

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> BRB?  (I dunno know what the means)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Be Right Back not me Gary

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Dennis:  I want to keep several 'sets' of integers, be
                    able to add and delete individual items on the fly. In
                    'C', I use a linked structure of 'min,max' ranges to
                    keep the set ga

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I guess I'm missing the purpose do you want to ssociate
                    them together?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> AhA!  The purpose!

<[Dave] OLORIN> Doug: For a set of integers,min,max can become inefficient.
                    What is the range in integer values? Dennis: I
                    understand what he is talking about.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> 16 bits

<[Dave] OLORIN> Doug: What about a bit-field for the sets?

<[Dou] D.PHILIPS2> But negatives not allowed.

<[Dave] OLORIN> Ouch. You are using the full range?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> No! What I'm using them for is to keep track of

<[Dave] OLORIN> What is the range of the integers which you are using?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> which netnews articles I've read, out of the entire
                    available set of articles.  Since I expire news after
                    about 4 days,

<[Dave] OLORIN> Ahhhh. A Forth netnews reader?????

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> YES!

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> sounds like a bit field to me

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I haven't gotten much over 1,000-2,000.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> what is the range of values?

<GARY-S> Sorry - I can't find it

<[Dave] OLORIN> Ok. Let's assume a maximum value of 4000, use bitfields.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> S'Ok.  Just 2 more years of purgatory to do. I don't
                    want to assume any maximum.  I want to be able

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, simply turn on bits for the ones you have read

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> to expire news and not have to reset the article
                    counts.

<[Dave] OLORIN> What you want to do is create a structure which has 4000
                    bits of free space in it. (Probably 4096 because it is
                    a power of two).

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Which is a *big* pain.

<[Dave] OLORIN> Then you initialize all bits to zero, and set those bits
                    which you have read.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I know how to use bit fields, but I don't think that
                    that approach

<GARY-S> I posted a bit mask almost in the beginnings of the library

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> is necessarily extensible.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> it is not, but now I see what you need I just don't
                    know an easy way to do it

<[Dave] OLORIN> Now. It isn't extensible. It has a fixed limit.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> There is more that I do.  I also scan each group for
                    unread articles, and I make up a set for article
                    numbers that all have the same subject (subject
                    threads). I also need to count how many items are in my
                    sets, so I can display how many articles are unread
                    about 'ForthNet:  The final chapter'

<[Dave] OLORIN> Ok. Multiple sets isn't much of a problem.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you do need to create some linked lists

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> That's what I thought.  I don't know that I want to use
                    'ALLOC' and tie up all that dictionary space,

<[Dave] OLORIN> To handle counts, you probably want to just have a count
                    field. (Makes doing a size order(1) rather than
                    order(n) )

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> VARIABLE TOP    CREATE MEMBER  TOP @  HERE TOP !  ,

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> And the linked lists I use now can collapsed as the
                    holes get filled in.  Free space can get messy. And
                    when I'm done with each newsgroup, I reset all the
                    subject thread pointers and start over for the next
                    group.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> is the data in a database?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> The only threads that don't get freed are those that
                    keep track of the articles actually read.

<[Dave] OLORIN> Doug: You need a memory manager other than the "cheap
                    screw" heap manager that Forth uses. There is (I
                    believe) one coming out in thenext issue of _The
                    Computer Journal_.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> The data is in text files.  I have an index file which
                    gives me 'lseek' offsets to the start of the articles
                    and also contains the seek offset to the subject line
                    and the length of the article in lines. I'm probably
                    going to redo some of that when I move to the

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> You can do what you want by creating the structure on
                    disk, but you need some dbm tools to do it.  I don't
                    know of any in the pd

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> If I can have a seekable stream package (I know, I
                    know, roll your own), I can do that.  The other thing I
                    might do is grab another DOS segment to put my lists
                    into.  Of course, I'm open to alternative
                    representations that achieve the same effect.  ga

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> streams won't buy you much since the database would
                    probably be fixed length indices

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Streams by me seeking around in the file that has the
                    text of the news in it. 'by'->'buy '

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Yes, streams will help there

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> So, is this off the wall to be wanting to do in forth?
                    Have I taken an approach to the problem which precludes
                    an easy forth solution? ga

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can do what you want in PolyForth, but the tool is
                    not pd

<[Dave] OLORIN> Not at all. Forth will work fine. And if you are using F-
                    PC, it already has a full stream library.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I'm not using F-PC at the moment, but I do have it.
                    I'm using pygmy,

<[Dave] OLORIN> (And I have placed a minimal stream package for Druma Forth
                    in the library)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> has anyone done a database in it yet? in F-PC that is

<[Dave] OLORIN> Not that I know of.

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> since I'm a bit overwhelmed by F-PC.  Of course, I
                    might try to steal the stream package from F-PC.

<[Dave] OLORIN> F-PC is a very nice package.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you might also check out ABUNDANCE it is a VERY nice
                    database system in Forth

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Abudance is in the library here?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes an older version that is

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> I don't think I want a full blown database system.  I
                    want to keep the news articles in plain text files so
                    that I can edit them with various tools, and let my
                    uucp (UULINK) software deal with them. I just want to
                    create these auxillary indecies into them.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> you need to talk with Bob Schemmel he has the same
                    desires for a modem package

<[Dave] OLORIN> Doug: F-PC will do what you want. And it isn't nearly as
                    frightening as it seems. (BTW: The hypertext help in
                    3.5 is nice, too)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Hypertext SchmyperText! Hypertext is too often an
                    excuse for not doing the right organization! (Personal
                    opinion, of course :-)

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Bob Schemmel (R.SCHEMMEL1) has been doing a bunch of
                    thinking about the same kind of things

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Actually, Hypertext is good for REFERENCE manuals, but
                    too often a hyperlinked

<GARY-S> Can we continue this later ?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> reference document is considered good enough.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> well folks, it's getting late and I haven't eaten
                    supper yet

<[Dave] OLORIN> I need to head out. Bye. has left.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> can I go home yet?

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Ja.  Next week is taken, how about sunday night?

<GARY-S> let's kill the cat ********** poof has left.

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> just be there and bring it up Doug take the wizards by
                    the horns :-)

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Que Pasa?

<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> bring up your need next Sunday, and I'm sure it will
                    get some discussion for now, I'm calling it a night

<[Doug] D.PHILIPS2> Ciao. has left.

=== End of Steno notes. ===