Sub: Minutes of your RT Conference.

>From Steno: Jennifer Marlowe

Date: 01/07/88   Time: 22:50EST
Attendees:
[D.RUFFER]
[J.ADAMS]
[GARY-S]
[LMORGENSTERN]
[APPERT]

Minutes:
<J.ADAMS> is here.
<D.RUFFER> hello jeff
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> greetings
<D.RUFFER> welcome, but should I know you?
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> I take it that you are one of the sysops for the 4th section 
on GENIE
<D.RUFFER> yes I am
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> (Don't think you know me - I stay most of the time in the C128 
section of GENIE)
<D.RUFFER> Gary smith, scott squires and I set this up for you
<D.RUFFER> oops I trompted all over that
<D.RUFFER> could you repeat?
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> I have HES' Forth cartridge and a version of F83 on the C128 
here
<D.RUFFER> ok
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> (repeat[ I spend most of my time in the C128 section of GENIE)
<D.RUFFER> by have do you mean wrote or use?
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> I use 4th occasionally,  its an easy language/operating system 
to bring up on a new piece of hardware...
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> I design minicomputers for a living    mostly 68000 based 
intelligent systems
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> Jeff we usually use "ga" as signal that we're done...
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> what do you do w/ Forth?    ga
<D.RUFFER> just to get the protocol straight...
<D.RUFFER> I write turnkey "intelegent" machines...
<D.RUFFER> actually "dumb" expert systems...
<D.RUFFER> running on 8080 comupters...
<D.RUFFER> perhaps you've seen one... The MasterMind of Firestone!
<D.RUFFER> the big brown box hanging in most Firestone garages.
<D.RUFFER> ga
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> 8080  ugg!            ga
<D.RUFFER> ah yes the ancient world!
<D.RUFFER> you do intelegent machines....
<D.RUFFER> and don't use Forth much?  ga
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> no   havent seen one     cant remember the last time I saw an 
8080  (except in my old junk box!    ga
<D.RUFFER> have you seen the AI work in Forth?  ga
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> Im not really into AI much - I just try to get a language up 
and running fast w/o a disk operating system,   I do alot ALOT!!! of rea
ltime data acquisition   ga
<D.RUFFER> and you don't use Forth A LOT?  ga
<GARY-S> is here.
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> I use 4th but not AI per sea     ga
<D.RUFFER> hello gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ??
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> (and I can't spell very well when my fingers are flying)   ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Dennis, The reason I put...
<[Gary] GARY-S> those M100 files up un=arc'd is..
<[Gary] GARY-S> because a M100 uyser has no access to an unarc facility
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I knew this was going to be discussed....
<D.RUFFER> we might just as well start it off...
<D.RUFFER> Jeff, in case you haven't been following us...
<D.RUFFER> we now have an unARCer written in Forth...
<D.RUFFER> we have had a policy....
<D.RUFFER> that non text files, and files too long...
<D.RUFFER> would be ARCed (i.e. compressed and grouped)...
<D.RUFFER> now about M100...
<D.RUFFER> they don't have ARC, huh?....
<D.RUFFER> I guess this is our first test case....
<D.RUFFER> I can re-upload it as original, but...
<D.RUFFER> I'd like to get a request from an M100 user first...
<[Gary] GARY-S> ??
<D.RUFFER> we had a "request" for them to be ARCed...
<D.RUFFER> from Jerry Shifrin, so I responded.
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> points
<[Gary] GARY-S> the m100 uses a priority O.S. not vcompatible
<[Gary] GARY-S> with anything...
<[Gary] GARY-S> many of them are only 32K...
<[Gary] GARY-S> The m100 user will just go pull the file..
<[Gary] GARY-S> from laptops...
<[Gary] GARY-S> what do we want ? Forth users going to other RT's..
<[Gary] GARY-S> or satisfying their needs here ? end of points.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> NO I do not want them to have to go elsewhere...
<D.RUFFER> we should have the files in a form...
<D.RUFFER> they can use...
<D.RUFFER> but we also should try to save them time=money...
<D.RUFFER> can they use UNARC?   ga
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> Sorry but I have to leave for the night, nice to talk (and 
listen to all of you)    bye
<[Gary] GARY-S> no - in a word
<[Jeff] J.ADAMS> has left.
<[Gary] GARY-S> as a matter of facrt...
<[Gary] GARY-S> that forth is a minimal fig-forth with some improvements...
<[Gary] GARY-S> over the original distributed for the m100...
<[Gary] GARY-S> and I included the hex-binary loader they need to make it go.
<[Gary] GARY-S> There is no unarc for m100 and no other forth <period>
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I've been thinking about this alot....
<D.RUFFER> and I think an equitable solution would be....
<D.RUFFER> to leave files in two (or more) formats...
<D.RUFFER> I've been looking at the file directories...
<D.RUFFER> they need a little work...
<D.RUFFER> and Jerry was justified in yelling...
<D.RUFFER> especially for him, we should ARC the files....
<D.RUFFER> I'll put the M100 files back up....
<LMORGENSTERN> is here.
<D.RUFFER> hello lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN>
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> I have a question about ARCing. I can sympathize with those who 
are
<LMORGENSTERN> impatient and/or worried about costs on downloading non-arced 
files.
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> funny we were just talking about that...
<LMORGENSTERN> Shoul
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> we need to ARC, but also leave as original...
<D.RUFFER> the M100 is a good example...
<D.RUFFER> of people needing both formats...
<D.RUFFER> ok, now who does the ARC?
<D.RUFFER> so far it is ME, can anyone else do it yet?   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> What is the M100?
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> ga gary????
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> Yeah, I can ARC now ga
<D.RUFFER> YOU CAN ARC?   But what is an M100?
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> an m100 is Tandy's laptop ( bokk size) that really kicked...
<[Gary] GARY-S> of the laptop revolution. ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I thought I recognized the name...
<D.RUFFER> they do have a "primitive" file system don't they?
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> yes they do - there are facilities to do lots of stuff...
<[Gary] GARY-S> all at a price that would put yopu in front of a good
<[Gary] GARY-S> clone...
<[Gary] GARY-S> most of what they use is rom based or...a form of BASIC
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<LMORGENSTERN> 1!!
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN>
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> but could an UNARC be customized for them?   ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> by whom - with what ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> if the guys in laptop...
<[Gary] GARY-S> haven't done it , I have my doubts...
<[Gary] GARY-S> It's run by Travelin' Software who caters to the
<[Gary] GARY-S> Krioce (?) users like m100.
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> yea, we have the same problem...
<D.RUFFER> with apple ][ users....
<D.RUFFER> who's going to write the UNARC prelude...
<D.RUFFER> like I did with F83...
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> Gary, are you going to do one for CP/M?
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> Not right now - that's for sure. You may have noticed I am 
dealing..
<[Gary] GARY-S> with a few other things a lot nearer and dearer...
<[Gary] GARY-S> since I have the floor right now...
<[Gary] GARY-S> does any one know where I can find a...
<[Gary] GARY-S> 4th (text) to Block facility for non - MS dos ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> just looked at the dirs...
<D.RUFFER> since i have them in front of me...
<D.RUFFER> there's CTEXT.ARC "Turn a Forth word into a Text file"
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> but I think the rest are IBM
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> If you are talking about the pair 146 and 147...
<[Gary] GARY-S> SCREEN.ARC and TEXT.ARC they do NOT unARC for...
<[Gary] GARY-S> my box with the right length and CRC...
<[Gary] GARY-S> could it be they are PK-ARC, Dennis ?
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> very interesting...
<D.RUFFER> as I said, the libraries need some work...
<D.RUFFER> I'd better test those files, and...
<D.RUFFER> I need to test for ARC mode 8 so...
<D.RUFFER> UNARC can always use them...
<D.RUFFER> I also need to do some backup....
<D.RUFFER> the file I was talking about...
<D.RUFFER> gary was # 697, but I seem to remember...
<D.RUFFER> it was not really what your looking for...
<D.RUFFER> but you might check.   ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> I have and 697 is no-go...p
<[Gary] GARY-S> please check the ARC on 146/147...
<[Gary] GARY-S> they are the only generic files in our library and I can't...
<[Gary] GARY-S> use them and I have done a very thorough search...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I will look into the UNARC prelude soon or maybe ask...
<LMORGENSTERN> Ytype d:today
<LMORGENSTERN> type d:temp1
<[Gary] GARY-S> Gene to. You might try Wil Baden for the Apple //
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<LMORGENSTERN> type d:temp1
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard????
<D.RUFFER> your macro's not working lenoard <grin>
<LMORGENSTERN> Sorry, I was trying my automatic keysYep!
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> yes gary, will would be a good choice...
<D.RUFFER> but he's not on, and won't be until...
<D.RUFFER> I get direct pay (i.e. pay in advance) accounts...
<D.RUFFER> I'm working on it, but not available yet...
<D.RUFFER> we got anyone else on here who uses apple ][s?  ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> question first - where is Nick Hennenfent ?...
<[Gary] GARY-S> the reason I ask...
<[Gary] GARY-S> is Rick Nixon, also of Atlanta is also a sharp Apple // user.
<[Gary] GARY-S> GA
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I met Nick at last Rochester...
<D.RUFFER> he was supposed to start taking on...
<D.RUFFER> the FIG chapter coordinators role...
<D.RUFFER> but I haven't heard anything about him on here yet.  ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga gary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ok
<[Gary] GARY-S> gotta go make some personal calls...
<[Gary] GARY-S> please do check out 146/147...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I'll look for your results in E-mail...
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<[Gary] GARY-S> and thanks again for your concern.
<[Gary] GARY-S> fgary
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> well gary take it easy!
<[Gary] GARY-S> has left.
<LMORGENSTERN> I have a question. Martin Tracy's Micromotion attempted to 
standardize file I/O words using Kernigan & Pflauger's Software tools. Are t
here any other attempts to make a standard set of file command words?
<LMORGENSTERN> ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> well there is ALWAYS Mitch Bradley's efforts!  ga
<LMORGENSTERN> I will look into that ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> I can't actually remember where he published them last...
<D.RUFFER> I think it was at Rochester 2 - 3 years ago
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> ok
<LMORGENSTERN> I am still getting used to this. Excuse me if I interrupt a lot .
 ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> well it IS just you and me now
<D.RUFFER> when I did the F83 UNARC...
<D.RUFFER> I found just what a problem a standard would have...
<D.RUFFER> all MY words were customized...
<D.RUFFER> and I KNOW how to use MY drivers...
<D.RUFFER> Ric's maped into mine farely easily...
<D.RUFFER> but I had to go all the way down to code to do it...
<D.RUFFER> most is due to the fact that F83 was written...
<D.RUFFER> for MS DOS 1.X File Control Blocks...
<D.RUFFER> but that made it compatable with CP/M
<D.RUFFER> so I didn't have much to work with.  ga
<LMORGENSTERN> ok
<LMORGENSTERN> I am aware of the problem. There is only one thing that is less 
compatible
<LMORGENSTERN> than operating systems, and that is printers! ga
<D.RUFFER> ah printers...
<D.RUFFER> I could tell you of an experience with Smith Corona...
<D.RUFFER> but it's not worht it on line.  ga
<LMORGENSTERN> I want to change the subject
<LMORGENSTERN> I would like to see you or someone maybe me, put up a message 
that messages may be downloaded by anybody. But if they want to publish t
hem, it is a courtesy to ask the author, to give him/her a chance to make 
corrections. ga
<D.RUFFER> hum
<D.RUFFER> interesting topic!...
<D.RUFFER> so far our policy is...
<D.RUFFER> that we provide this information...
<D.RUFFER> for the common good, and that...
<D.RUFFER> anyone is free to copy it for whatever....
<APPERT> is here.
<D.RUFFER> purposes the want.   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> I agree. That is why I call it a courtesy, not a requirement. ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> but I've found a REAL problem with that...
<D.RUFFER> often people leave things and don't return for a while...
<D.RUFFER> I could see it being a real turn around problem.   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> Hmm. But they should as anyway
<LMORGENSTERN> I freqently have small glitches in transmission that are not bad 
enough
<LMORGENSTERN> to correct at the time, but I would'nt like to see in hard copy. 
ga
<D.RUFFER> ga appert
<APPERT> what are we aatalking about? ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> Lenoard as brought up an idea...
<D.RUFFER> that we ask users to ask authors for corrections...
<D.RUFFER> to material on the board...
<D.RUFFER> is that right Lenoard?   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> ok
<LMORGENSTERN> I will repeat my message:
<LMORGENSTERN> I would like to see you or someone maybe me, put up a message 
that messages may be downloaded by anybody. But if they want to publish t
hem, it is a courtesy to ask the author, to give him/her a chance to make 
corrections. ga
<LMORGENSTERN>
<D.RUFFER> very nice macro lenoard <grin>  ga lenoard
<APPERT> :-)
<LMORGENSTERN> Did you receive me? ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> yes I did but did you have anything to add?  ga
<LMORGENSTERN> No ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I don't know exactly how a message...
<D.RUFFER> like that whould be worded...
<D.RUFFER> could you write me up what you'd like to see?...
<D.RUFFER> and then I might be able to understand...
<D.RUFFER> I just don't see how we would expect the user to do it.
<D.RUFFER> ga
<APPERT> is the problem that people are bothering the sysops with
<APPERT> questions properly adressed to the aauthor?
<APPERT> ga
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> I don't think so.
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> No. Somok
<LMORGENSTERN> No. Someone reprinted several of my tutorials
<LMORGENSTERN> in a local newsletter. He was kind enough to ask me first
<LMORGENSTERN> and I was able to make a few minor corrections. I appreciated the
<LMORGENSTERN> opportunity. ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> ah I see now...
<D.RUFFER> the issue already came up with your tutorials...
<D.RUFFER> well that's what you get <grin>...
<D.RUFFER> no, actually I wasn't aware that that had happened...
<D.RUFFER> and I think it IS GREAT that that person asked you first...
<D.RUFFER> I see nothing wrong with posting some kind of reminder...
<D.RUFFER> but I'd still really like to see you take a shot at...
<D.RUFFER> a message before I just write something...
<D.RUFFER> Lenoard, you have written the most up here...
<D.RUFFER> I don't remember too many mistakes, but...
<D.RUFFER> out of professional curtesy, we should remind...
<D.RUFFER> our users that there ARE authors to this stuff...
<D.RUFFER> and we should at least acknowledge them...
<D.RUFFER> ok? I'll wait for you'r message Lenoard?   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> ok
<APPERT> I'm afraid no matter what you do...
<APPERT> you arn' goning to make people polite.ga
<LMORGENSTERN> I will draft something & send it to you byok
<LMORGENSTERN> by EMAIL so everybody can approve it. Maybe I can put it
<LMORGENSTERN> in my topic header
<LMORGENSTERN> I realize that you can't force people, but you can ask. ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> send it to FIG$, and we'll get comments...
<D.RUFFER> post it if you want in your topics...
<D.RUFFER> but if you'd rather it comes directly...
<D.RUFFER> from the sysops, or so it seems, then you can just let...
<D.RUFFER> me post it as a one timer...
<D.RUFFER> it's up to you how strongly we want to...
<D.RUFFER> pursue this.  I agree we arn't going to make people polite...
<D.RUFFER> but we can remind them.   ga
<LMORGENSTERN> ok
<LMORGENSTERN>
<APPERT> what's the position on copywright?
<LMORGENSTERN> ggga
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> Nothing is copyright unless you mark it so! ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> this is a touchy subject...
<D.RUFFER> our position is also that nothing is copyright...
<D.RUFFER> even IF stated as copyright...
<D.RUFFER> it is up to the author to enforce that copyright...
<D.RUFFER> not us...
<D.RUFFER> we will, however, remove anything...
<D.RUFFER> anyone complains about....
<D.RUFFER> like we did a while ago....
<D.RUFFER> but basically, if it's on the board...
<D.RUFFER> it is in the public domain.   ga
<D.RUFFER> ok
<D.RUFFER> well it's getting late!...
<APPERT> yes, but if I don't want somebody to reprint, I copyrighrighga
<LMORGENSTERN> !!
<D.RUFFER> ga lenoard
<LMORGENSTERN> Sorry, I have to leave now. A good session! Thanks ga
<D.RUFFER> by by lenoard...
<D.RUFFER> but appert, it is up to you to enforce it!  ga
<LMORGENSTERN> has left.
<APPERT>  'night  I think my terminal program has ruon amok. ' night
<D.RUFFER> good night appert
<APPERT> has left.
=== End of Steno notes. ===