From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) Subject: comp.lang.forth FAQ: books (15 June 1996), part 5/6 Date: 18 Jun 1996 13:02:40 GMT Message-ID: <4q69dg$dk5@ns2.ryerson.ca> Reply-To: cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk Archive-name: forth/FAQ/books Comp-lang-forth-archive-name: books-faq Last-modified: 15 June 1996 Version: 1.05 Posting-Frequency: monthly comp.lang.forth Frequently Asked Questions, part 5 of 6 Books, Periodicals, and Tutorials Chris Jakeman, 12 June 1996 Changes since the previous posting are marked with a "|". Please send your updates, comments or suggestions to me at cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk. ------------------------------ Subject: Table of Contents [1] Periodicals [2] Standards Documents [3] Books - Organisation [4] Books - Tutorial [5] Books - Advanced [6] Books - Related [7] Suppliers [8] Indexes ------------------------------ Subject: [1] Periodicals Forth Dimensions (ISSN 0884-0822) Published 6 issues/year to members; Marlin Ouverson, editor . Subscriptions are US$40/year (before March 1, 1996), plus US$15/year for foreign subscriptions. Forth Interest Group, P.O. Box 2154, Oakland, CA 94621 USA, 'phone 510-893-6784, fax 510-535-1295. Advertising sales: 'phone 805-946-2272. Brad Rodriguez writes: Forth Dimensions is the official publication of the Forth Interest Group, and is probably the foremost journal devoted exclusively to the Forth language. It is in its 17th year of publication. FORML and euroForth Conference Proceedings Published annually by FIG at $40; Robert Reiling, director . FORML is an educational forum for sharing and discussing new or unproved proposals intended to benefit Forth. The first conference was held in 1980 and euroForth conferences began in 1992. FIG (above) published an index for these. Rochester Forth Conference Published annually by the Institute for Applied Research at $25 to $35 (depending on year); Larry Forsley, director . The conference covers all topics of Forth implementation and application. Conferences began in 1981. See http://maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca/~ns/96roch.html for this year. Does anyone have information about: - conferences in Australia, China etc.? - "More on Forth Engines" Dr.C.H.Ting, Editor? Journal of Forth Application and Research (ISSN 0738-2022) Published nominally 4 issues/year; Len Zettel, editor . Journal of Forth Application and Research, 70 Elmwood Avenue, Rochester, NY 14611 USA, telephone 716-235-0168. Brad Rodriguez writes: JFAR is the only peer-reviewed Forth journal. It is currently being revived after a long hiatus; the last issue was published in 1994. Len Zettel has assumed the post of editor, and is soliciting contributions to the Journal. The Computer Journal Published 6 issues/year; Dave Baldwin, editor . Subscriptions are US$24/year in U.S., US$34/year Canada/Mexico (air mail), US$44/year foreign (air mail). The Computer Journal, P.O. Box 3900, Citrus Heights, CA 95611-3900 USA, telephone 916-722-4970, fax 916-722-7480, email tcj@psyber.com, . Brad Rodriguez writes: The Computer Journal is not a Forth magazine; it is devoted to "classic", small, and non-mainstream computers. It frequently carries articles about the Forth language. Some national FIG groups publish their own periodicals, eg FIG UK and Forth-Gesellschaft e.V. See the FAQ: groups - part 6/6 for details. ------------------------------ Subject: [2] Standards Documents For details of the Forth standards see the FAQ: general - part 1/6. Published standards since 1978 are Forth 79 and Forth 83 from the Forth Standards Team, ANS Forth - document X3.215-1994 - by the X3J14 Technical Committee and the Open Boot Standard. The most recent standard, ANS Forth, defines a set of core words and some optional extensions and takes care to allow great freedom in how these words are implemented. The range of hardware which can support an ANS Forth Standard System is wider than any previous Forth standard and probably wider than any programming language standard ever. The document includes 90 pages of annexes, providing an insight into the decisions which had to be taken in drafting ANS Forth. Copies of the standard cost $193 from the American National Standards Institute Sales Department (212) 642-4900, but the final draft of ANS Forth is free and available (subject to copyright restrictions) at ftp://ftp.uu.net/vendor/minerva/x3j14/dpans94.zip (Word For Windows, v2) ftp://ftp.uu.net/vendor/minerva/x3j14/dpans94.hqx (Word For Macintosh) ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Literature/dpans94a.zip (plain ASCII) The Open Boot Standard defines the use of Forth to configure the hardware attached to a computer at startup. It is a token-threaded, open standard closely modelled on ANS Forth used by Sun, IBM, Motorola and Apple. IEEE Std 1275-1994 is recognised as an American National Standard: "IEEE Standard for Boot (Initialization Configuration) Firmware: Core Requirements and Practices, 262p, ISBN 1-55937-426-8, about $60 from IEEE Computer Society, email stds.info@ieee.org. ------------------------------ Subject: [3] Books - Organisation There is not space here to provide an abstract to every book on Forth. Instead this is a guide to those items which Forth users have found most helpful, together with a list of other Forth books. If you have been especially helped by a book, please write me an abstract for it. Where publications are not widely available, a supplier is listed. Approximate prices are given as a guide. ------------------------------ Subject: [4] Books - Tutorial "Starting FORTH: an introduction to the FORTH language and operating system for beginners and professionals" Leo Brodie, Prentice Hall 1981 (2nd Ed., 1987), 346 pages, ISBN 0-13-842922-7, price $29. Chris Jakeman writes: This is the classic introduction to Forth, with helpful cartoons, exercises and solutions. See also Brodie's "Thinking Forth" below. "The Forth Course" Richard Haskell, 156 pages with disk, price $25, supplier FIG. FIG writes: This set of 11 lessons is designed to make it easy for you to learn Forth. The material was developed over several years of teaching Forth as part of a senior/graduate course in desing of embedded software computer systems at Oakland Univeristy in Rochester, Michigan. "FORTH: A Text And Reference" Mahon Kelly and Nick Spies, Prentice-Hall, 1986, 487pps ISBN 0-13-326331-2 and in hardcover 0-13-326349-5, $19 and $25 from MMS below. Dick Miller writes: Very readable, covers beginner level through relatively advanced, including Assembler and 8087 math co-processor details, particularly appropriate to IBM PC and MMSFORTH, but very strong for general use as well. The only college-level Forth textbook, complete with exercises and answers. "Forth Applications In Engineering And Industry" John Matthews, Ellis Horwood, 1989 ISBN 0-85312-659-3, price UKP35. Currently out of print, this book may be available from libraries. MPE Ltd. writes: If you are starting out in the field of real-time control of hardware using Forth, then this book is for you! This text covers most aspects of real-time control under Forth, from the very basics of what Forth is, through to control loops and digital implementations of analogue filters. "Embedded Controller FORTH for the 8051 family" William H. Payne, Academic Press, 1990, 511 pages with DOS disks, ISBN 0125475705, price $72 book, $20 disk. J. Fulcher, Computing Reviews, 9105-0316 writes: ... This hobbyist-style book goes into considerable detail regarding the implementation of FORTH on the i8051 family of microcontrollers (down to circuit diagrams, PCB layouts, and wire-wrap board schematics) ... Almost two-thirds of this book is devoted to appendices -- 19 in all. These primarily contain code listings ... Paul Frenger, SIGFORTH, 2(4):31-32, 1990 reviews the book and gives it 10/10. Notes that the book contains everything you need: all the source is there as well as all the circuit diagrams. There are 19 appendices, which make up half of the book, and contain things like: the source to the 8086 Forth, 8051 Forth, full screen editor code, 8051 disassembler code, Nautilus metacompiler, 8086/8051 meta-assemblers, Forth decompilers and much more. See also the FAQ: on-line - part 2/6, for tutorials and Forth systems to try them on. Other titles are: | 90, Zech, Forth for Professionals, Ellis Horwood, 0-13-327040-8 88, Tracy, Mastering Forth 87, Henric-Coll, La Practique du Forth avec Hector I | 85, Bishop, Exploring Forth, Prentice-Hall, 0-246-12188-2 85, Burnap, Forth, The Fourth-Generation Language 85, Olney and Benson, Fundamental Forth, Pan Books 85, Salman, Forth 84, Anderson, Mastering Forth, Bowie (yes, same title as Tracy above :) 84, Armstrong, Learning Forth 84, Chirlian, Beginning Forth 84, Lampton, Forth for Beginners 84, Oakley, Forth For Micros, Newnes Technical Books, 0-408-01366-4 83, de Grandis-Harrison, Forth on the BBC Microcomputer, 0-907876-06-4 83, McCade, Forth Fundamentals, Matrix | 83, Winfield, The Complete Forth, Sigma Technical Press, 0-905104-22-6 82, Hogan, Discover Forth, Osborne 82, Scanlon, Forth Programming, Sams 81, Katzan, Invitation to Forth, Petrocelli Books 81, Knecht, Introduction To Forth, Sams Hendtlass, Real-Time Forth (on-line only http://www.forth.org/fig.html) Pitman, Pocket Guide to Forth | MVP-Forth Series | 1 - All About Forth, '90, Haydon | 2 - MVP Forth source listings, '83?, Haydon & Kuntz | 3 - Integer and Floating Point, '83, Koopman | 4 - Expert System, '84, Park | 5 - File Management System, '84, Moreton | 6 - Expert Tutorial, '84, Derick | 7 - Forth Guide, '85, Haydon | 8 - IBM Professional Application Development System, '85, Wempe | 9 - Word Processor And Calculator, Programmers Guide, '85, Wempe |10 - Word Processor And Calculator, File & Print source, '85, Wempe ------------------------------ Subject: [5] Books - Advanced "Scientific FORTH: a modern language for scientific computing" Julian V. Noble, Mechum Banks Publishing, 19??, 300 pages, ISBN 0-9632775-0-2, price $50. Julian V. Noble writes: While not intended for the Forth novice, Scientific FORTH contains a good many serious examples of Forth programming style, useful programs, as well as innovations intended to simplify number crunching in Forth. It can now be found in the libraries of several major universities (e.g. Yale, U. of Chicago and Rockefeller U.) and government and industrial laboratories (e.g. Fermilab and Motorola). It comes with a disk containing all the programs discussed in the book. An update file has recently been posted to GEnie/FIG. "Thinking FORTH" Leo Brodie, Prentice Hall, 1984, ??? pages, ISBN: 0-13-917576-8 and 0-13-917568-7 (pbk.), price $20. Dick Miller writes: This is a top-notch book on strategy, and always was our [MMS] top recommendation for the SECOND book, after you bought a textbook to learn the Forth words. This one teaches you which ones to select when, how to hone your habits for better Forth (and other) programming, etc. It's been unavailable for a year or two, and has been reprinted at last! MMS has worked to reduce its price from a proposed $40 (in paperback), and is pleased to offer it at $19.95. "Forth: The Next Step" Ron Geere, Addison-Wesley, 1986, 89 pages, ISBN 0-201-18050-2, price ??. Stephen J. Bevan writes: As the title might suggest, this is not for the complete beginner. It is aimed at those who have mastered the idea of reverse polish ... etc. and now want to do something a bit more complicated. Covers areas like: using double length numbers, formatting, reading/writing values from/to a port and `infinite' precision integers. "Object-oriented Forth - Implementation of Data Structures" Dick Pountain Academic Press, 1987, 108 pages, ISBN 0-12-563570-2, price $35. Chris Jakeman writes: Pountain is a Byte contributing editor. His "book sets out to develop systematic ways of constructing complex data structures in Forth ... with a few easy to use syntax extensions to the language." Efficient techniques for records and arrays are presented and refined with great clarity. Objects are built from these by adding methods with a small change to the dictionary structure. The techniques are demonstrated using lists, a heap and a dynamic simulation of queuing at the bank. "Forth: The New Model - A Programmer's Handbook" Jack Woehr, M&T Publishing, 1992, 315 pages, ISBN: 0-13-036328-6, DOS disk included, price $45. Describes features of ANS Forth and how to use it to write portable Forth programs. Published 2 years before the Standard was approved, it predicts the Standard very closely. Currently the only book about ANS Forth. Ong Hian Leong writes: The author is (as at time of print) VP of Forth Interest Group and member of X3J14, so he presumably knows what he's talking about. 8-) Other titles are: | 87, Dr.Dobb's Toolbook of Forth, Vols I & II, M&T Publishing | 86, Reynolds, Advanced Forth, Sigma 86, Terry, Library of Forth Routines and Utilities | 85, Olney and Benson, Forth Techniques, Pan Books, 0-330-28961-6 | 85, Roberts, Forth Applications, ELCOMP Publishing, 3-88963-061-8 84, Feierbach, Forth Tools and Applications, Reston | 81, Loeliger, Threaded Interpretive Languages, Byte Books, 0-07-038360-x ----------------------------- Subject: [6] Books - Related "The Evolution Of FORTH - An Unusual Language" C.H.Moore, Byte, Aug. 1980. Forth's history by its creator. "The Evolution of Forth" E.D.Rather, D.R.Colburn, C.H.Moore, ACM SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 28, No.3 March 1993, 46 pages. An larger and more recent history of Forth by the early pioneers. This is also available on the Forth Inc. home page at http://home.earthlink.net/~forth "Stack Computers: The New Wave" Phillip Koopman, John Wiley & Sons, 1989, ISBN 0-470-21467-8, price $82. Stephen J. Bevan writes: This isn't a book about Forth, rather it is about computers that potentially execute Forth very efficiently. The book contains a detailed overview of a number of Forth chips as well as a potted history of what seems to be every stack based computer ever designed. Paul Frenger, SIGFORTH, 1(3):28-29, 1989 writes: Overall, I highly recommend this book to anyone who programs in Forth or any other high level language of whatever variety, or who is interested in the hardware details of Forth engines or the pitfalls of conventional CPU design. "Write Your Own Programming Language Using C++" Norman Smith, Wordware Publishing, Plano, Texas. 108 pages, DOS disk included, ISBN 1-55622-264-5, price: $15. Norman E. Smith writes: This book presents a minimal Forth implementation called Until, for UNconventional Threaded Interpretive Language. Until is designed to be used as a macro language embedded in other applications. It can both call and be called by other C functions. Chris Jakeman writes: Continued development has enhanced Until since this publication. For details of the latest public version, see FAQ: system - part 4/6. ------------------------------ Subject: [7] Suppliers Brad Rodriguez writes: Most of these books and conference proceedings are available from the Forth Interest Group, P.O. Box 2154, Oakland, CA 94621 USA, telephone 510-893-6784, fax 510-535-1295. Other suppliers include: FORTH Inc. - email to forthsales@forth.com Miller Microcomputer Services (MMS) - email to dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu Mountain View Press (MVP) - email to ?? Box 429, Star Route 2 La Honda, CA 94020 and, in the UK, MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd.(MPE) - email to mpe@mpeltd.demon.co.uk Why not call them for a complete list of their Forth publications? ------------------------------ Indexes: [8] Indexes Currently there is no comprehensive on-line index to books or published papers about Forth. FIG supplies a printed index of FORML and euroForml papers. http://www.bookshop.co.uk/SEARCH.HTM finds 45 books but omits some important ones like Scientific Forth. | http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/Compiler/forth.html is part of the Computer Science Bibliography Collection at the University Of | Karlsruhe and 13 mirror sites around the world. It contains 668 references to published papers, mostly proceedings of euroForth conferences. See also http://www.paisley.ac.uk/~cis/forth/index.html From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) Subject: comp.lang.forth FAQ: groups (7 Feb 1996), part 6/6 Date: 18 Jun 1996 13:03:29 GMT Message-ID: <4q69f1$dk5@ns2.ryerson.ca> Reply-To: bj@headwaters.com Archive-name: forth/FAQ/groups Comp-lang-forth-archive-name: groups-faq Last-modified: 7 Feb 1996 Version: 1.02 Posting-Frequency: monthly comp.lang.forth Frequently Asked Questions, part 6 of 6 Forth Groups & Organizations Bradford J. Rodriguez, 7 Feb 1996 We are currently seeking a volunteer to maintain this FAQ. Please contact Brad Rodriguez if you're interested. Please send additions, deletions, or changes to Brad Rodriguez in the meantime. ------------------------------ Subject: Table of Contents [1] Forth Organizations [2] FIG Chapters [3] Forth Conferences NOTE: this FAQ is in the early stages of construction. Contributions and suggestions are welcome. ------------------------------ Subject: [1] Forth Organizations Forth Interest Group (FIG) P.O. Box 2154 Oakland, CA 94621 USA telephone: 510-893-6784 (510-89-FORTH) fax: 510-535-1295 e-mail: johnhall@aol.com Membership in FIG is US$40 per year (before March 1st), plus an additional US$15 per year for foreign members. This includes a subscription to the bimonthly magazine Forth Dimensions. FIG holds the annual FORML conference. FIG-UK The UK Chapter of the Forth Interest Group publishes its own Forthwrite magazine 6 times a year, maintains an extensive lending library of books and periodicals (including Forth Dimensions, JOFAR and FORML) with a number of items on disk too. Meetings with invited speakers are held 4 times a year at the South Bank University, London. To join (at only 10 pounds a year, you can't afford not to :-) contact Doug Neale on 0181 542 2747 or by post to: 58 Woodland Way MORDEN Surrey SM4 4DS Institute for Applied Forth Research 70 Elmwood Avenue Rochester, NY 14611 USA telephone 716-235-0168 email: lforsley@jwk.com Publishes the peer-reviewed Journal of Forth Application and Research, and holds the annual Rochester Forth Conference. Association for Computing Machinery (SIGForth) ACM's Special Interest Group on Forth has been absorbed into ACM SIGPlan, the Special Interest Group on Programming Languages. ------------------------------ Subject: [2] FIG Chapters [This section is under revision. If you have information about an active FIG chapter, please send it to the FAQ maintainer.] CALIFORNIA North Bay Chapter Meets monthly, 2nd Sat., at BMUG, 2055 Center Street, Berkeley (1/2 block from Berkeley BART station). Tutorial at noon, meeting at 1 pm. Contact Leonard Morgenstern, 510-376-5241, . CANADA Southern Ontario Chapter Meets quarterly, 1st Sat. of March/June/Dec., 2nd Sat. of Sept., 2 pm, at McMaster University, General Science Building, Rm. 301, Hamilton, Ontario. Contact Dr. N. Solntseff, 905-525-9140 x.23443, . Maintains software library. UNITED KINGDOM see "FIG-UK" listing under "[1] Forth Organizations" ------------------------------ Subject: [3] Forth Conferences Rochester Forth Conference The Rochester Forth Conference is held in (or near) the Eastern U.S. every June. This year's conference, the 16th annual, will be held from June 19-22 at Ryerson Polytechnic University in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The conference theme is "Open Systems" and papers are being solicited. Direct inquiries to the Program Chair, Nicholas Solntseff, . WWW page: EuroForth Conference The EuroForth Conference is held in various European countries, usually in late October or early November. The 1996 conference is scheduled to be held October 4-7 in St. Petersburg, Russia. FORML Conference The FORML Conference is held at the Asilomar Conference Center in California every November. Other Forth conferences have been held in Australia and China. From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) Subject: c.l.f. FAQ: part 3, vendors Date: 18 Jun 1996 13:05:53 GMT Message-ID: <4q69jh$dk5@ns2.ryerson.ca> Archive-name: forth/FAQ/vendors Comp-lang-forth-archive-name: vendors-faq Last-modified: 4 Mar 1996 Version: 1.01 Posting-Frequency: monthly comp.lang.forth Frequently Asked Questions, part 3 of 6 Forth Vendors Send all Corrections, Additions, and/or Deletions to: L. Greg Lisle L.G.Lisle@ieee.org These firms are primarily software, systems and support FirmWorks; Mitch Bradley; 415 917-0100 480 San Antonio Rd, Ste 115; Mountain View; CA 94040; USA Open Firmware, ForthMon, Forthmacs; info@firmworks.com; fax: 415 917-6990 Specialists in IEEE Std 1275 Boot Firmware Forth Interest Group; John D. Hall; 510 893-6784 PO Box 2154; Oakland; CA 94621; USA " "; fig@taygeta.com; fax: 510 535-1295 Literature & Software Source FORTH, Inc; Elizabeth Rather; 800 553-6784 111 N. Sepulveda Blvd. Ste 300 ; Manhattan Beach; CA 90266; USA polyFORTH ; ERATHER@forth.com; fax: 310 318-7130 Other services include 5-day courses in introductory and FORTH, Inc; Steve Agarwal; 800 553-6784 111 N. Sepulveda Blvd. Ste 300 ; Manhattan Beach; CA 90266; USA chipFORTH; SAGARWAL@forth.com; fax: 310 318-7130 More than 9 cross-development targets Laboratory Microsystems, Inc. (LMI); Ray Duncan; 310 306-7412 PO Box 10430, Marina del Rey, CA 90295 ; Los Angeles; CA 90066; USA UR/FORTH (16-bit), 80386 UR/FORTH (32-bit), WinForth, LMI ; duncan@nic.cerf.net; fax: 310 301-0761 WinForth, LMI Forth-83 Metacompiler MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd.; Stephen Pelc; +44 1703 631441 133 Hill Lane ; Southampton; -- SO15 5AF ; England PowerForth, ProForth ; sales@mpeltd.demon.co.uk; fax: +44 1703 339691 Large range of cross compilers Miller Microcomputer Services; A. Richard Miller; 508 653-6136 61 Lake Shore Road ; Natick; MA 01760-2099 ; USA MMSFORTH ; dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu; fax: MMSFORTH and many application modules are available in native Mountain View Press, Division of Epsilon Lyra, Inc.; Glen Haydon; 415 747-0760 Star Rt 2 Box 429; La Honda; CA 94020-9726 ; USA MVP Forth (which I wrote)and other public domain ; ghaydon@forsythe.stanford.edu; fax: 415 747 0760 Ext 3 Literature & Software MP7; Marc Petremann; (33) 1 43 03 40 36 17, allee de la Noiseraie; F - 93160 NOISY LE GRAND; ; France Turbo-Forth; 100647.3306@compuserve.com; fax: Offete Enterprises, Inc.; C.H. Ting; 415 574-8250 1306 South B St.; San Mateo; CA 94402; USA eFORTH,F83&; tingch@ccmail.apldbio.com; fax: 415 571-5004 Books & Software for figForth, F83, FPC etc These Firms are primarily hardware vendors Ampro Computers Inc.; ; 408 522-4825 990 Almanor Ave.; Sunnyvale; CA 94086; USA " "; techsupport@ampro.com; fax: 408 720-1305 SBC Inovative Integration; James Henderson; 818 865-6150 31352 Via Colinas #101; Westlake Village; CA 91362; USA ; ; fax: 818 879-1770 TMS320C31, C32, C25, C44 Mosaic Industries, Inc; Patrick Campbell; 510 790-1255 5437 Central Ave Ste 1; Newark; CA 94560; USA " "; ; fax: 510 790-0925 QED SBC Saelig Company; Alan Lowne; 716 425-3753 1193 Moseley Rd.; Victor; NY 14564; USA " "; 71042.17@compuserve.com; fax: 716 425-3835 Rep for Triangle Data Svs Silicon Composers Inc.; George Nicol; 415 961-8778 655 W. Evelyn Ave. #7; Mountain View; CA 94041; USA " "; ; fax: 415 961-6778 RTX 2000 & SC32 boards Triangle Digital Services Ltd.; Peter Rush; +44-181-539-0285 223 Lea Bridge Road; London; UK E1O 7NE; England TDS2020 &; 100065.75@COMPUSERVE.COM; fax: +44-181-558-8110 SBC w/ on board Forth Vesta Technology, Inc; Cyndi Reish; 303 422-8088 7100 W. 44th Ave Ste 101; Wheat Ridge; CO 80033; USA Forth-83+; ; fax: 303 422-9800 SBC w/ Forth in ROM These Firms are primarily custom consulting 4th Wave Computers Ltd.; Peter Caven; 905 335-6844 2314 Cavendish Drive ; Burlington; ON L7P 3P3; Canada " "; p.caven@ieee.org; fax: Custom SW Development in Forth & C A Working Hypothesis, Inc; Paul Frenger; 713 293-9484 PO Box 820506; Houston; TX 77282; USA " "; 70410.1173@Compuserve.com; fax: AM Research; Albert Mitchell; 800 949-8051 4600 Hidden Oaks Lane; Loomis; CA 95650-9479; USA " "; sofia@netcom.com; fax: 916 652-6642 8051, 6811 & 80C166 Forth Dev Systems Bernd Paysan; Bernd Paysan; ++49 89 798557 Stockmannstr. 14 ; 81477 Muenchen; FRG ; Germany BigForth ; paysan@informatik.tu-muenchen.de; fax: ++49 89 794378 Object Oriented Blue Star Systems; Mike Warot; PO Box 4043; Hammond; IN 46324; USA Forth/2 ; ka9dgx@interaccess.com; fax: A direct threaded implementation of forth for OS/2 text mode, 32 bit Compucyber, Inc.; Boris Bibershtein; 416 733-1630 PO Box 3182; North York; ON M2M 3A6; Canada DOS; ; fax: both F-PC and LMI Forth Delta Research; Phil Burk; 415 453-4320 PO Box 151051; San Rafael; CA 94915; USA JForth ; phil@3do.edu; fax: JForth is a subroutine thread Forth for Amiga. Frank Sergeant; Frank C. Sergeant; 809 W. San Antonio St. ; San Marcos; TX 78666; USA Pygmy ; sergeant@axiom.net; fax: I am recommending and/or using Pygmy or one of my specialized Frog Peak Music; Larry Polansky; 603 448-8837 PO Box A36 ; Hanover; NH 03755; USA HMSL - Hierarchical Music Specification Language ; phil@3do.edu; fax: HMSL is a set of music related Forth extensions based on L Squared Electronics; L. G. Lisle; 910 924-0629 2160 Foxhunter Ct.; Winston-Salem; NC 27106; USA Pygtools, Pygmy; L.SQUARED@GEnie.com; fax: Engineering consulting using Forth for industry Michael Hore; Michael Hore; +61-2-557-5836 54 Frederick St ; Sydenham; NSW 02044; Australia Mops ; mikeh@zeta.org.au; fax: Mops is a PD OOP system Redshift Limited; Charlie Springer; 206 564-3315 726 No. Locust Lane; Tacoma; WA 98406; USA " "; RedForth@AOL.com; fax: A simple 32 bit indirect threaded Forth for ARM Rob Chapman; Rob Chapman; 403 430-2605 11120-178 st.; Edmonton; AB T5S 1P2; Canada botKernel, Timbre; rob@idacom.hp.com; fax: 403 430-2772 Science Applications International Corp.; Norman Smith; 615 482-9031 301 Laboratory Road ; Oak Ridge; TN 37831; USA Until, LMI, Uniforth ; smithn@orvb.saic.com; fax: 615 482-6828 Write Your Own Programming Lang. w/ C++ T-Recursive Technology; B.J. Rodriguez; 905 308-3698 221 King St. East, Suite 32 ; Hamilton; ON L8N 1B5 ; Canada ; BJ@headwaters.com; fax: 519 986-4266 Contract programming & hardware design for small/embedded systems TOS Systems Inc.; Roger Stern; 617 431-2456 PO Box 81-128; Wellesley; MA 02181; USA LMI; rstern@world.std.com; fax: 617 431-2456 Software & Hardware Consulting Transport Control Technology Ltd.; Paul Bennett; +44 (0) 117-9499861 7 Broadfield Ave, Kingswood; Bristol; BS15 1HX; UK " "; enquiry@transcontech.co.uk; fax: Company Emphasizes Safety Critical Systems Ultra Technology; Jeff Fox; 510 848-2149 2510 10th St.; Berkekey; CA 94710; USA P21Forth ; jfox@netcom.com; fax: I do consulting on systems besides MuP21 and F21, From: jvn@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Julian V. Noble) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please X-Nntp-Posting-Host: faraday.clas.virginia.edu Message-ID: References: <4pmtl9$j81@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:54:53 GMT znmeb@news writes: [ misc. deletions ] > At one point, Julian Noble and Brad Rodriguez were writing a programming text > based on Forth. Realities of some kind or another for one or both of them > forced this project on hold. Now, if I were independently wealthy ... > -- > znmeb@plaza.ds.adp.com (M. Edward Borasky) The project is not on hold--it is almost done. It is merely that we do not emit continual progress reports. I have been slaving to get a final first draft done in time to send Brad for the Rochester Forth Conf. Things being what they are, and my having to go to Europe to do some research next week, probably will mean that this year's Rochesterians (Torontians?) will not see the book. I always seem to need about 1 week more than I have available! Maybe I can get a copy to the EuroForth organizers and to the FORML conference next fall. But this is not, per se a book about Forth. It is in fact a book about computer programming from the ground up. Its intended audience is under- graduates studying science or engineering, who need to use a computer to REALLY GET THINGS DONE. Observation convinced me that these students are badly served by the curricula of computer science departments, in much the same sense as they are badly served by the mathematics departments. These disciplines have much in common, and tend to be interested in abstraction (and don't get me wrong, I know well how powerful a tool it can be). But beginning students need the concrete more than the abstract, and to learn why while learning how. This is why our book, unlike any introductory text of which I am aware, begins with logic circuits and explains how arithmetic can be done with logic. We then begin teaching the art of programming, using Forth as the (primary) illustration language. We don't skimp the basic ideas-- control structures, data structures, analysis of algorithms, etc.-- but our emphasis is on stuff the student will find practical in his work. Thus, unlike any introductory text I know of, we include chapters on 1. real-time programming: interfacing computers to various devices (both inside and outside the box), and other useful issues. 2. Solving problems with "little languages"--text formatter, expert system and circuit simulator. 3. Computation: long-integer and floating point arithmetic, frequently-encountered computational problems, and how to write a simple compiler (FORmula TRANslator). 4. Simulation and optimization. We conclude the book with an overview of Forth and how it works down in its guts (the "engine room") that, since Brad wrote it, I can safely say rivals anything written on the subject. So we think it will be a good and useful book, and we are trying to get people interested in a. publishing it; b. adopting it for courses in computer programming. Cheers! -- Julian V. Noble jvn@virginia.edu From: ninapint@ix.netcom.com(Nina Pinto) Subject: Internet Resource List - Forth - Pointer Date: 19 Jun 1996 16:34:59 GMT Message-ID: <4q9a7j$657@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 9:34:59 AM PDT 1996 We maintain a list of Forth-related Internet resources at: http://www.eg3.com/forth.htm This is part of our larger embedded systems project at: http://www.eg3.com/ebox.htm If you know of other resources, please email me. Thanks. NINA PINTO ninapint@ix.netcom.com Eg3 Communications * EE Toolbox * Electronics Search FAQ * http://www.eg3.com/ * http://www.cera2.com/ * Free Internet Resources for Embedded Systems, Realtime, DSP, Industrial Embedded Computing, Microcontrollers/Microprocessors From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) Subject: comp.lang.forth FAQ: systems (1 Jun 1996), part 4/6 Date: 19 Jun 1996 18:07:35 GMT Message-ID: <4q9fl7$ko0@ns2.ryerson.ca> Reply-To: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca Archive-name: forth/FAQ/systems Comp-lang-forth-archive-name: systems-faq Last-modified: 1 Jun 1996 Version: 1.02 Posting-Frequency: monthly Expires: 4 Jul 1996 08:29:10 CDT comp.lang.forth Frequently Asked Questions, part 4 of 6 Forth Systems: Commercial, Shareware, and Freeware Stephen J. Bevan, 19 Sept 1995 Bradford J. Rodriguez, 7 Feb 1996 J. D. Verne, 1 Mar 1996 Please send additions, deletions, omissions, or changes to Jon D. Verne . [This FAQ is adopted in its entirety from the "implementations" FAQ produced by Stephen J. Bevan, last updated September 1995. Thanks Stephen! -bjr] ------------------------------ Subject: Table of Contents This section of the Forth FAQ describes the Forth systems that are currently available and/or have been asked about in the group. Topics Covered: [1] Forth for the 8051/8031 [2] Forth for a PC [3] 32-bit protected-mode PC Forth [4] Forth for Windows (3.1/NT) [5] Forth for OS/2 [6] Forth for the 6811/68HC16 [7] Forth written in C [8] Forth for UNIX [9] Forth for a Sun [10] Forth for a MAC [11] Forth for an Amiga [12] Forth for an Atari ST [13] Forth for a Transputer [14] Forth for a Tandy TRS-80 [15] Forth for the Apple II [16] Forth for 68000 boards (including cross development from PCs) [17] Forth for (miscellaneous) DSP chips [18] Forth for VMS [19] Forth for playing with Music [20] PD/ShareWare Forth for the BrouHaHa-7245 [21] Forth that isn't necessarily Forth [22] Forth Vendors/Authors [23] Contributors to the FAQ Search for [#] to get to question number # quickly. Note the sections are in "digest" form so cooperating NEWS/MAIL readers can step through the sections easily. Recent Changes: 95-07 bevan Partially brought up to date after years of neglect. 95-07-22 bevan Added FP-C description. 95-07-22 bevan Added wpforth listing. 95-07-22 bevan Added OOF listing. 95-07-22 bevan Added Ale Forth listing. 95-07-22 bevan Added gforth description. 95-08-07 bevan Updated 51forth address. 95-08-07 bevan Added author for Pygmy Forth. 95-08-07 bevan Added MacQForth entry. 95-09-13 bevan Updated New Micros address information. 95-09-19 bevan Updated Apple II info. wrt LWV latest Apple II catalogue. 96-01-01 bjr Changed taygeta path. 96-03-01 jdv Added TURBO-Forth listing. Editted duplicate info. 96-04-01 jdv Cut & pasted. Updated Gforth listings. 96-05-01 jdv Updated MacForth listing. 96-06-15 jdv Removed stale DSP listings. Fixed FORTH, Inc info. Note: 1. Some of these Forth systems are listed as being available from particular anonymous ftp addresses, or from "good archives". Please try and find as close a site to you as possible to get it. 2. Most of the vendors mentioned herein can supply a Forth system for a wide variety of platforms. If you can't find a Forth system for your platform explicitly listed, try any/all the vendors listed. 3. If an entry is short it is probably because the system is available on more than one machine. Company addresses, and contact information are in section [22], below. ------------------------------ Subject: [1] Forth for the 8051/8031 Commercial: AM Research: Sells a Forth cross-development for the 8051 that features a kernel of less than 700 bytes. FORTH, Inc.: chipFORTH; an interactive cross-development for embedded systems. Laboratory Microsystems, Inc. (LMI) sell an 8051 system. Mikrap and Forth Systeme sell SwissForth and act as agents for LMI. MicroProcessor Engineering, Ltd. (MPE) offer a Forth5 Cross compiler. Offete: 8051 eForth, C. H. Ting -- $25.00 A small ROM based Forth system with source code in MASM. Free: William H. Payne, the author of "Embedded Controller Forth for the 8051 Family", has made all the code for the system described in his book available. Please see ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/8051/read51.txt EFORTH51.ZIP may be downloaded free of charge from the RealTime Control and Forth Board (RCFB) [see] or from the GEnie Forth Interest Group RoundTable. 51forth is a subroutine threaded Forth by Scott Gehmlich. ftp://fims-ftp.massey.ac.nz/pub/GMoretti/51forth.zip [APH:950807] CamelForth/51 by Brad Rodriguez is an ANSI Standard Forth that is free for non-commercial work (negotiate with the author if you want to use it in a commercial product). ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Camel/cam51-11.zip [SJB:950721] ------------------------------ Subject: [2] Forth for a PC Commercial: FORTH, Inc.: polyFORTH; Real-time system for DOS computers, including libraries for math, graphics, database, GUIs, and many other functions. Harvard Softworks sells HS/FORTH that can link with object files. Miller Microcomputer Services (MMS) offer MMSFORTH V2.5 for systems with and without DOS. MPE: PC PowerForth Plus v3.2 and Modular Forth v3.6 LMI also sell PC based Forths. MP7: TURBO-Forth. Four versions optimized for specific CPU's. Also: FASTGRAF; an I/O and graphic package for TURBO-Forth. [JDV:960216] Free: eForth is a very portable, ANS-aligned, public-domain Forth that comes with all sources and only 29 words in assembler. [see also: 3, 8] Golden Porcupine Forth, v92.5 by Alexandr Larionov. Distributed as FREEWARE, with Russian docs, for non-commercial work. Includes various useful libraries for graphics, sound &etc. Follows the Forth-83 Standard. Phone: 7 095 288-2660. [VPF:93] Pygmy Forth v1.4 is a small, 16-bit DOS Forth written by Frank Sergeant that is modeled after Chuck Moore's cmFORTH for NOVIX. It is shareware but there is no charge for registration. If you DO choose to register, there is a Bonus Disk with goodies for ~$20. Complete with documented source code, editor, assembler, and metacompiler. TCOM v2.5 by Tom Zimmer is a 16-bit cross/metacompiler for DOS. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/tcom25.zip [SJB:950720] F-PC v3.6 is a 16-bit Forth that is based on the Forth-83 standard but includes numerous extensions. Very complete implementation. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/fpc36.zip http://www.efn.org/~fwarren/fpc.html [SJB:950722] hForth v0.9.5 by Wonyong Koh is an ANS Forth inspired by eForth. This free beta release is ANS compliant, and all commented MASM source code is included. There are actually three hForth models to choose from: A standard EXE (for segmented memory machines), RAM (for any other RAM- only system), and ROM (for small embedded systems). The author asserts that it is very easy to optimize for any specific CPU. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/hf86v09.zip [SJB:950720] wpforth v1.0 by Albert Chan is a prototype of a typographical programming system built around WordPerfect v5.x and Pygmy Forth v1.4. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/wpforth.zip [SJB:950722] The following are available in any SIMTEL mirror site: 4thcmp21.zip: Native code Forth compiler: COM, EXE, SYS, TSR, ROM bbl_[ab].zip: Fast 16/32-bit Forth based on F83 -- needs work fig86.zip: Original Fig-86 Forth compiler min4th25.zip: MiniForth system v2.5, with A86 source uniforth.zip: Sampler of floating point Forth compiler zen1_10.zip: Forth with source to match ANS X3J14, BASIS 10 [SJB:931030] ------------------------------ Subject: [3] 32-bit protected-mode PC Forth Commercial: Bradley Forthware sells Forthmacs for $250. Price includes source and DOS extender. FORTH, Inc.: polyFORTH. [see] Harvard Softworks has a version of HS/FORTH that provides access to a full, flat 4Gb of memory. [JVN:93] LMI sell a 32-bit protected-mode Forth called 80386 UR/FORTH. It runs on DOS and is based on the 'Phar Lap' DOS Extender. It is fully compatible with XMS, EMS, and DPMI memory managers. MPE: ProForth for DOS, v2.0. Offete has a protected-mode 32-bit eForth. It comes with source code and a public domain DOS extender. bigFORTH by Bernd Paysan. [see] Free: eForth is available as a 32-bit port by Andy Valencia. [see also: 8] FROTH is a free 32-bit Forth system, with source, available on Taygeta. Gforth v0.1b is a GNU C-forth for Linux. [see also: 7, 8] OOF is an object-oriented 32-bit Forth System written by Zsoter Andras. It does not use a threaded paradigm, and generates native machine code. Although many ANS Forth programs will run on OOF, it is not fully ANS Forth compliant. All source is under the GNU General Public License. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/oof.zip [SJB:940722] Ale Forth by Johns Lutz Sammer. Implements ANS Basis 17 wordset along with lots of extensions. Supports subroutine threading, native code generation and inline words. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/alefth.zoo [SJB:940722] ------------------------------ Subject: [4] Forth for Windows (3.1/NT) Commercial: Bradley Forthware: Forthmacs is available for Windows 3.1 and costs $250. It includes an EMACS editor and comes complete with source. LMI WinForth v1.01 is a 16-bit Forth for Windows 3.1 available from their BBS for a $100 (US) fee. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/wfshr101.exe [SJB:940721] MPE: ProForth for Windows, v1.4. FORTH, Inc., offers ProForth for Windows 3.1x, NT, and Win95. Free: Jax4th, a freeware 32-bit Forth for Windows NT complete with source code. The current version features complete access to NT DLL's and BLOCK loading facility. Written in MASM by Jack Woehr [see]. ftp://ftp.cygnus.com/pub/forth/JX4NT106.ZIP [JJW:931021] LMI WinForth. [see above] Win32forth v1.20292 by Tom Zimmer and Andrew McKewan. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/win32for.zip [SJB:940721] ------------------------------ Subject: [5] Forth for OS/2 Commercial: Forth/2 by Michael A. Warot [see] and Brian Mathewson [see] can be licensed for commercial work. Talk to Brian if you have something to add or you have any suggestions regarding Forth/2. Contact Michael if you want to obtain a commercial license and/or source code. ftp://ftp-os2.cdrom.com/pub/os2/2_x/program/forth025.zip ftp://ftp-os2.nmsu.edu/os2/2_x/program/forth025.zip Free: Forth/2 by Michael A. Warot and Brian Mathewson is available by ftp for non-commercial work. [see above] ------------------------------ Subject: [6] Forth for the 6811/68HC16 Commercial: FORTH, Inc.: chipFORTH. [see] MPE: Forth5 Cross Compiler. New Micros, Inc., has Max-FORTH which is burned into the ROMs of their OEM '6811 development boards. Max-FORTH uses a serial port to talk to the outside world, and can be compiled to off-chip ram. [BL:931117] Free: various at ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/68hc11/ and ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Archive/68hc11/ ------------------------------ Subject: [7] Forth written in C Commercial: Bradley Forthware C-Forth costs $100. Free: ThisForth v1.0.0.d is an ANS Forth written by Will Baden. You will need M4 and an ANSI-C compiler to compile it. Binaries are available for a number of architectures (CRAY, MIPS, SUN, SGI). ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/ANS/this4th.tar.gz [SJB:940720] PFE (Portable Forth Environment) v0.9.14 is an ANS compatible Forth implementation written in ANSI-C. All the code is under the GNU General Public Licence. Binaries for various architectures available. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/ANS/pfe*.* [SJB:940720] Gforth is a fast and portable implementation of the ANS Forth language. It works nicely with the Emacs editor, offers some nice features such as input completion and history and a powerful locals facility, and it even has (the beginnings of) a manual. Distributed under the GNU General Public license. Gforth runs under Unix and DOS and should not be hard to port to other systems supported by GCC. Gforth-0.1beta has been tested successfully on Linux (Intel), SunOS (SPARC) and Ultrix (MIPS). http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/ ftp://ftp.complang.tuwien.ac.at/pub/forth/gforth/ HENCE4TH v1.2 - A figForth written in C that currently runs under V7 Unix, Personal C Compiler, and Mix Power C. Porting to other platforms should be trivial, considering how vastly different these three are! ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/msdos/forth/ [KH:93] C-Forth available from comp.sources.unix and also ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/unix/c-forth.tar.z TILE by Mikael Patel is a 32-bit Forth 83 written in C. Until v2.5.1 is (almost) Forth-83 written in C. Its internals are described in the book "Write Your Own Programming Language Using C++" (ISBN# 1-55622-264-5) by Norman Smith . This implementation was designed to call, and be called, by other C functions; so it is ideal as a 'macro' language embedded in C/C++ applications. Comes with 175 pages of documentation. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/until251.zip [SJB:950720] ------------------------------ Subject: [8] Forth for UNIX Commercial: Bradley Forthware's Forthmacs. [see] Free: 68K: An indirect threaded 32-bit Forth based on the 83 standard. Written in 68K assembly (Motorola format) by Andy Valencia ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/68000/forth-68000.tar.Z [SJB:94] Forth-83: A UN*X port is available. ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Archive/f83.tar.z PDP-11: A version of FIG-Forth in PDP-11 assembler is available. ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/others/pdp114th.zip [SJB:950718] LINUX/i386: An eForth v1.0 port (by Francois-Rene Rideau) to LINUX on an i386 architecture is based on the DJGPP/GO32 version by Andy Valencia. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/linux-eforth-1.0c.tar.gz [SJB:950720] eForth [see] has been also ported to LINUX by Marcel Hendrix. See also section [7]. ------------------------------ Subject: [9] Forth for a Sun Commercial: Bradley Forthware: Their Forthmacs costs $200. It comes with source code, an assembly debugger, and floating point routines. Free: Open Boot PROM: built-in to the SPARCstation PROMs. Inaccessible from the Unix environment; you have to interrupt the boot process and then type 'n' to get to Forth. For more information on this see http://www.firmworks.com [SJB:950720] See also: [7] & [8] ------------------------------ Subject: [10] Forth for a MAC Commercial: Bradley Forthware: Forthmacs is available for $50. MacForth by Creative Solutions, Inc.; acquired by FORTH, Inc. Includes MacForth Plus, the latest version of the popular MacForth system first introduced in 1984, and the new Power MacForth, a highly optimized version for Power Macintoshes. MacForth: US$199, Power MacForth: US$299 See the review in Dr. Dobb's Journal, #108 (1985). Free: Yerk is an object-oriented language based on Forth for the Macintosh and was originally a product marketed as Neon (reviewed in Dr. Dobb's #108, 1985). Yerk runs on all Macs with at least System 6.0 but requires System 7.0 (or greater) for full compatibility. ftp://astro.uchicago.edu/pub/MAC/Yerk/yerk_367.sea.bin ftp://astro.uchicago.edu/pub/MAC/Yerk/yerkManual3.67.sea.bin Mops v2.7, by Michael Hore, is an object oriented Forth also derived from Neon [see]. There is a PPC native version in the works. http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/mops.html ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Mops/Mops26s.sea ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Mops/Mops26m.sea [SJB:950718] Pocket Forth by Chris Heilman. Subroutine threaded with 16-bit words. Supports 16-bit relative, 32-bit absolute addressing. Allows "inline" definitions, but doesn't have an in-line assembler. Minimal Toolbox support but it does supports Apple Events. Comes as an application and a desk accessory, and can generate stand-alone applications. Distribution comes with complete source; the kernel is in assembly. MacQForth is an adaptation of (Apple II) QForth to the Macintosh. Created with Mops [see] and accompanied by the Mops sources. An attractive introductory package, including some witty and instructive material proselytizing on behalf of Forth. ftp://info-mac/dev/mac-q-forth-10.hqx [BB:950807] ------------------------------ Subject: [11] Forth for an Amiga Commercial: Delta Research: JForth Professional 3.x true-compiled Forth for $179.95. Includes a tutorial, libraries, and examples. [MH:93] Free: A4th by Appleman is a 32-bit port of L&P F83 complete with metacompiler written for the A1000. ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/amiga/a4th*.* [JJW:931021] Joerg Plewe: F68K and F68KANS should work if you can obtain/implement a loader. Jax4th is a dp-ANS2 implementation by Jack J. Woehr. It is available on the RCFB [see]. [JJW:931021] ------------------------------ Subject: [12] Forth for an Atari ST Commercial: Bradley Forthware: Forthmacs is available for $50 w/ optional GEM support. Bernd Paysan: bigFORTH is available for 200 DM. Extras: Source code, floating point, GEM interface, object-oriented FORTH, native code compiler. F68KANS by Joerg Plewe. As per the free version, but you can use it commercially. Contact Joerg for licensing details. HiSoft FORTH is a 32-bit Forth for the Atari ST, with full support for GEM. It is subroutine threaded, and a Motorola 68000 assembler is also included. The price in the UK is about 39 pounds. [HM:93] Free: F68K and F68KANS by Joerg Plewe. ------------------------------ Subject: [13] Forth for a Transputer Commercial: MPE: Forth5 Cross Compiler. Offete: eForth [see] has been ported to the Transputer by Bob Barr. Free: There is a free/public-domain transputer forth written by Laurie Pegrum available. It is an implementation of Forth for 16 & 32-bit transputers that includes source. It requires the D705 occam development system, and a 32-bit transputer board with 1M of memory to recompile. ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/parallel/software/forth ------------------------------ Subject: [14] Forth for a Tandy TRS-80 MMS: MMSFORTH v2.4 nonDOS version only. MVP: Model4th for the TRS-80 Model 4, by Art Wetmore. ------------------------------ Subject: [15] Forth for the Apple II Commercial: Apple Forth 1.6: Cap'n Software - Uses a unique disk format. [LWV:93] 6502 Forth 1.2: Programma International. [LWV:93] FORTH II for the II+ or //e by Softape. [LWV:93] Raven Forth (+) by C. K. Haun, runs on IIgs. Available on GEnie Library 19 as file 903. [LWV:950919] MicroMotion: F-79, MasterFORTH. MVP-FORTH [more info?] Free: GraFORTH(+) for DOS 3.3, by Paul Lutus. Available on GEnie Library 8, file 3299. [LWV:950919] Mad Apple Forth(+) ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/system/apple2/Lang/Forth [LWV:93] Purple Forth(+) ftp://cco.caltech.edu/pub/apple2/8bit/source [LWV:93] QForth(+) v2.0, Alpha 1.0, is a small integer Forth written by Toshiyasu Morita ftp://ftp.uu.net/systems/apple2/languages/forth [LWV:93] GS 16 FORTH II, Version II (+) - A 16-bit implementation able to make use of the GS Toolbox. Includes assembler and full screen editor. ftp://cco.caltech.edu/pub/apple2/source/GS16Forth.shk Also available on GEnie: Library 18, file 2124/2125. [LWV:950919] ------------------------------ Subject: [16] Forth for 68000 boards (including cross development from PCs) Commercial: Bradley Forthware: ForthMon is available for $500. FORTH, Inc.: chipFORTH. [see] MPE: Forth5 Cross compiler. Free: There is a version of Laxen and Perry's F83 which will metacompile 68000 code on a PC that can be burned to ROM, or used with S records any way you like. It is available on GEnie as M16PC.ARC. [MC:93] bot-Forth: The source code is comprised of 3 parts: the metacompiler, mini-assembler, and the kernel. The kernel will metacompile itself. The metacompiler was presented at the 1989 Rochester Forth Conference. ftp://asterix.inescn.pt/pub/forth/68000/botfth68.arc ~/botforth.txt [SJB:93] Joerg Plewe: F68ANS and F68K [see] A subroutine threaded eForth for VME 68K system is available on GEnie as MVME167.ZIP. It is an implementation of ECBE4TH 32-bit eForth derived from Haskell. ------------------------------ Subject: [17] Forth for (miscellaneous) DSP chips Commercial: FORTH, Inc. offers a version of chipForth for the ADSP2020. Offete: A port of eFORTH to ADSP2100 is being contemplated. [any info?] Micro-K Systems produce complete AT&T DSP32 boards running Forth. Includes the AT&T DSP library. MPE: Forth5 Cross Compiler for various DSP chips. ------------------------------ Subject: [18] Forth for VMS You can find three Forth implementations in ftp://hpcsos.col.hp.com/mirrors/forth/vax [SJB:950721] Klaus Flesch wrote a VAX VMS Forth some years ago. It is believed to be derived from FIG-FORTH. Availability is uncertain, try contacting the author c/o Forth Systeme. See also: [7] & [8] as some C and UNIX based systems (may) port without (too) much effort. ------------------------------ Subject: [19] Forth for playing with Music HMSL (Hierarchical Music Specification Language) Phil Burk, Center for Contemporary Music at Mills College Frog Peak Music, and Delta Research PO Box 151051, San Rafael, CA 94915-1051 Email: phil@mills.edu ------------------------------ Subject: [20] PD/ShareWare Forth for the BrouHaHa-7245 CP/M/Z80 CamelForth/80 by Brad Rodriguez is an ANSI Standard Forth that is free for non-commercial work (please negotiate with the author if you want to use it commercially). ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Camel/cam80-12.zip [SJB:950721] 6809 CamelForth/09 by Brad Rodriguez. Free. [see above for restrictions] ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Camel/cam09-10.zip [SJB:950721] Archimedes/RISCOS Forthmacs is Hanno Schwalm's port of Mitch Bradley's "Forthmacs 3.0". This Risc-OS Forthmacs follows the Forth-83 standard, and has been written with portability to other platforms and former versions in mind It runs almost any software that has been written for 'Forthmacs'; or will with very little re-coding. ftp://taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Reviewed/forthmacs.arc ------------------------------ Subject: [21] Forth that isn't necessarily Forth Commercial: FIFTH by Software Construction Co. Available for the Amiga, PC. Charles Moore's OK. Available through Offete Enterprises for a PC for around $75. [RH:940314] Free: Kevo by Antero Taivalsaari is a prototypical (classless) object-oriented language which has a Forth feel to it. Runs on Macs. Features multitasking, dynamic memory management, and an integrated Mac Finder -like iconic programming environment. Comes with source, demo programs, and some documentation. ftp://cs.uta.fi/pub/kevo/* [AT:931021] ANNforth by Bruce J. McDonald. No documentation, but a header file states "ANN simulator with forth interpreter". Written in C++. ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Archive/unix/annforth.arc [SJB:931026] ------------------------------ Subject: [22] Forth Vendors/Authors AM Research, 4600 Hidden Oaks Lane, Loomis, CA. 95650 USA phone: (916) 652-7472 or 1-800-949-8051 Bernd Paysan, Stockmannstr. 14, D-81477 Munchen, GERMANY email: paysan@informatik.tu-muenchen.de Products: bigFORTH 386, bigFORTH ST Bradley Forthware Inc. P.O. Box 4444 Mountain View, CA 94040 USA voice: (415) 961-1302 fax: (415) 962-0927 email: wmb@forthware.com Products: Forthmacs, ForthMon, C Forth, floating point libraries Computer Continuum, 75 Southgate Ave., Suite 6, Daly City, CA 94015 USA Eric Reiter, engineer and owner phone: (415) 755-1978 Products: Specialists in motion control and data acquisition Creative Solutions 4701 Randolph Road, Suite 12, Rockville, Maryland 20852 USA phone: (301) 984-0262 or 1-800-FORTH-OK On CompuServe 'GO FORTH' to go to the Forth SIG they sponsor. Delta Research, P.O. Box 151051, San Rafael, CA 94915-1051 USA phone: (415) 453-4320 Products: JForth Professional 3.x for $179.95, HMSL (Hierarchical Music Specification Language) [w/ Frog Peak Music] FORTH, Inc. 111 N. Sepulveda Blvd., Suite 300, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266-6847 USA phone: (310) 372-8493 or (US only) 1-800-55FORTH fax: (310) 318-7130 email: forthsales@forth.com http://www.earthlink.net/~forth Products: polyFORTH, chipFORTH, MPE's ProForth for Windows, programming courses and custom programming services Forth Systeme, P.O. Box 1103, Breisach, GERMANY. phone: 7767-551 Harvard Softworks, P.O. Box 69, Springboro, OH 45066 USA phone: (513) 748-0390 Chris Heilman, PO Box 8345, Phoenix, AZ 85066-8345 USA email: heilman@pc.maricopa.edu compuserve: 70566,1474 Products: Pocket Forth (for the Mac). HiSoft email: hisoft@cix.compulink.co.uk Joerg Plewe, Haarzopfer Str. 32, D-45472 Muelheim an der Ruhr, GERMANY phone: (+49)-(0)208-497068 email: joerg.plewe@mpi-dortmund.mpg.de Products: F68K, F68KANS Laboratory Microsystems, Inc. (LMI) 12555 W. Jefferson Blvd., Suite 202, Los Angles, CA 90066 USA voice: (310) 306-7412 fax: (310) 301-0761 BBS (310) 306-3530 email: lmi@nic.cerf.net Miller Microcomputer Services (MMS) 61 Lake Shore Road, Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA. phone: 617/653-6136 (9am-9pm EST) email: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu Products: MMSFORTH V2.5, MMSFORTH/MS-DOS, TGRAPH vector graphics, DATAHANDLER and DATAHANDLER-PLUS flat-file databases, FORTHWRITE word-processor EXPERT-2 expert system, MMSFORTH V2.4, Forth books, and some Conference Proceedings (email book list sent by request) MP7: 17, allee de la Noiseraie, F-93160 NOISY LE GRAND, FRANCE phone: (33) 1 43 03 40 36 email: 100647.3306@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mp7 Products: TURBO-Forth, FASTGRAF graphics & I/O package, French-language Forth books MicroProcessor Engineering, Ltd. (MPE) 133 Hill Lane, Shirley, Southampton, SO1 5AF U.K. phone: 01703-631441 fax: 01703-339691 email: mpe@mpeltd.demon.co.uk U.S. contact: AMICS Enterprises (phone: 716-461-9187) Canadian contact: Universal Cross-Assemblers (phone: 506-847-0681) Free catalogue available on request. Products: Forth5 Cross Compilers (v5.1) for target chips: 80x96, 8031/51x/55x, 68HC1[16], 680x0/68332, Z80/64180, TMS320C3x, H8/500, RTX2000/1A/10. PC PowerForth Plus v3.2, Modular Forth v3.6 for MS-DOS, ProForth for DOS v2 (was PowerForth/386), ProForth for Windows v1.4 MicroMotion, 12077 Wilshire Boulevard, #506, Los Angeles, CA 90025 USA phone: (213) 821-4340 Products: MicroMotion FORTH-79, MasterFORTH Mountain View Press (MVP), Box 429 Star Route 2 La Honda, CA 94020 USA New Micros, Inc. (NMI), 1601 Chalk Hill Rd., Dallas, Texas 75212 USA phone: (214) 339-2204 fax: (214) 339-1585 email: general@newmicros.com http://www.newmicros.com/general Offete Enterprises, Inc., 1306 South B Street, San Mateo, CA 94402 USA phone: (415) 574-8250 Software Construction Co., Inc. 2900B Longmire College Station, Texas 77845 USA phone: (409) 696-5432 Michael A. Warot, PO BOX 4043, Hammond, Indiana 46324 USA email: ka9dgx@chinet.com Brian Mathewson, 21576 Kenwood Avenue, Rocky River, OH 44116-1232 USA email: bbm@r2d2.eeap.cwru.edu Products: Forth/2 for OS/2 2.0 Jack J. Woehr, sysop of the RealTime Control and Forth Board (RCFB) BBS: (303) 278-0364 email: jax@cygnus.com ------------------------------ Subject: [23] Contributors to the FAQ Thanks to the following for providing the information that makes up this section of the FAQ: BB: Bruce Bennet SJB: Stephen J Bevan MB: Mitch Bradley MC: Mike Coughlin VPF: Valery P Frolov KH: Kevin Haddock MH: Mike Haas RH: Rick Hoensee APH: Andrew P. Houghton HM: Henry McGeough DM: Dick Miller BL: Benjamin Lee CL: Nan-Hung (Carl) Lin JVN: Julian V. Noble BP: Bernd Paysan AT: Antero Taivalsaari JDV: Jon D. Verne LWV: Larry W. Virden JJW: Jack J. Woehr From: jverne@acs.ryerson.ca (John Verne - CNED/F94) Subject: Followup to FAQ... Date: 18 Jun 1996 21:13:22 GMT Message-ID: <4q765i$lh0@ns2.ryerson.ca> Just to let everyone know I posted the FAQs directly off of the FIG web site, so if they are grossly outdated, so be it. I thought we could celebrate the Rochester Conference proceedings by arguing over the contents ;> Seriously, keep those comments coming. Cheers and see you at Rochester! -- Jon D. Verne From: mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:31:15 GMT Message-ID: <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pbogl$2t4@yama.mcc.ac.uk> <4pmhje$ffv@life.ai.mit.edu> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> In article <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, Bruce R. McFarling wrote: >mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) wrote: > >>Relying on a standard document to do the job of a textbook >>will get us nowhere. Using a textbook to serve as a standard >>document will work fine, ... > > No, it won't. All these RFI would be doubled, >quadrupled, or even increased by an order of magnitude >if the standard was written textbook style. Everything >would go swimmingly, of course while doing the textbook >examples from the textbook. It would only be when we >venture beyond the textbook that the problems would arise. >We need both, and more: 'Software Tools in Forth', >'Programming Recipes in Forth', a standards document, a >standard document explaining the standards document, >etc., etc. The C language had no standard document, no ANS committee, no requests for information, etc. when it started to be widely used after 1978. It just had a good textbook, "The C Programming Language" by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (usually just called K&R). Having this book made C much more uniform, portable, and standard than Forth will ever be. > Don't complain that a quarterhorse loses a race >run pacing. Horses for courses. If you have to start out with a poorly written standard document, then you'll need a lot of other material to try to make up for its deficiencies. If you could start off with good textbooks, not only would it be easy to write a standard document, but you wouldn't need to. -- Michael Coughlin mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cambridge, MA USA From: timtroyr@ionet.net (Tim Robinson) Subject: Class Ideas Needed Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 05:08:53 GMT Message-ID: <4qd7ql$23n@ionews.ionet.net> I'm looking for ideas for classes at the Junior College I teach at. I teach part-time evenings and the management is superb enough to allow new ideas even from adjunct instructors. I gear my classes toward professionals rather than full-time students since evening classes are usually taken by pros and the approach seems to be well appreciated. If you are a computer professional -- or manage people who would benefit from computer classes -- could you take just a moment to answer a few questions? Please e-mail responses since I'm already feeling guilty about taking up bandwidth in the assorted newsgroups I've posted this to. 1. Do you take, or encourage employees to take, computer courses? 2. Do you prefer semester length classes, or do you prefer to take a class in 3-5 eight hour days? 3. Do you consider a local Junior College when you consider a place for training? 3a. If not, do you instead prefer 4-year colleges? 3b. Do you prefer professional seminars? (I.e, the type your company sometimes sends you cross-country to attend.) 4. What practical courses do you think you should attend for your job... or would encourage your employees to attend for their current job? (List as many as you think practical.) 5. What dream courses would you like to take? (That is, there is $$$ left in the training budget, so go take a course... any course.) 6. Finally, here are courses I've taught (or can teach immediately off the top of my head). Which course(s) would you prefer to take, or would encourage your employees to take? C for programmers C for people who never programmed C++ for programmers C++ for C programmers Windows programming in C Windows programming in C++ Data structures in C Data structures in C++ Writing HTML Programming for Winsock applications I appreciate your response very much. Thank you. | Tim Robinson | Lonely Web page. Please visit. | | timtroyr@ionet.net | http://www.ionet.net/~timtroyr | | "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by | | men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." L. Brandeis | From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: Problem with pfe0914, and VARIABLE Date: 20 Jun 1996 09:27:16 GMT Message-ID: <4qb5hk$jmu@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <4pv86k$hto@basement.replay.com> <4q0t1m$evf@hkusuc.hku.hk> <4q13ss$kl7@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4q6jdm$25e@hkusuc.hku.hk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras) wrote: > My problem is that VARIABLE became a "forigner language" > word in Forth. All other data structures ( created by > CREATE DOES> ) are normally initialized from the stack. > VALUEs and CONSTANTs are likewise. So the stack effect > of the new VARIABLE is an exception which you have to > remember separately! Constants are not initialized from the stack, they are defined from the stack. And a VALUE is a weird halfway redefinable constant, so it could go either way. Certainly I don't define data structures that refer to the dataspace so that they are initialized on definition, because I don't want to *ever* have to go through and deal with the problem of not being *able* to assume persistence of data space between compilation and use. The original VARIABLE was too implementation dependent, and it was a good thing to change it. > I know this was the reson behind the design, but for > that there were solutions (like USER) so VARIABLE could > have been left intact. It is wrong to make resource constrained implementation of Forth bear an extra burden due to an implemntation dependent design of system variables in the original forth. Especially if the rationale for doing so is to permit the difference between initializing a location in the dataspace and defining a constant in the codespace to be ignored. In terms of the discussion about teaching Forth, this one ought to be pretty easy to get across. "Imagine we are copying the definitions into a cartridge for a video game. When we hit 'start', the constants will be in the cartridge, but the RAM in the game console won't have a value in them until we put the value in. So if we want a VARIABLE initialized, we have to do it when we run the application, not when we define the variable." Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: japs@netcom.com (Jim Schneider) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Message-ID: Summary: My $0.02 worth References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4p1vud$2i0@news.tuwien.ac.at> <4p4jd4$lmt@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:00:52 GMT In article <4p4jd4$lmt@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> mhx@IAEhv.nl (Marcel Hendrix) writes: >Anton Ertl wrote Re: Fix Forth, please > > >>> > : ENDIF POSTPONE THEN ; IMMEDIATE >>> > >>> > : foo ( f -- ) IF [ ENDIF ] ; >>> >>> > is a standard program. >>> >>> IMO foo should produce an error message ("THEN is compile-only"), or crash >>> nastily. I prefer the first. > >>I see why this might produce an error message (it does in PFE), but >>not why it should crash. > >A standard system can not have compiler security, can it? I suppose such >a system compiles a jmp garbage for the IF , not to mention the horrible >patch THEN might consider necessary. It is also possible that ; updates >system pointers wrongly because it doesn't find the sys from : . > According to my understanding of the Standard, compiler security is not prohibited. In fact, I don't think the Standard addresses the issue at all. I do know that the tokens passed and consumed by control flow words are *NOT* constrained to be single cell. The only requirement for the various -sys types is that CS-ROLL and CS-PICK can handle them consistently (if they are provided). It's my understanding that : ENDIF POSTPONE THEN ; IMMEDIATE will result in a word ENDIF that operates identically to THEN. Thus, if your system actually allows you to compile : FOO IF [ ENDIF ] ; you should get the same result if you compiled : FOO IF [ THEN ] ; On systems with compiler security, if ENDIF (or THEN) doesn't complain about being "Compiling only", then ; should complain about an unconsummed orig-sys, although neither is required to do so by the Standard. Also, I don't think the definition of FOO is "a standard program". If you want compiler security, instead of defining IF and THEN like: : IF [COMPILE] 0BRANCH CODE-HERE 0 COMPILE, ; IMMEDIATE : THEN CODE-HERE SWAP CODE! ; IMMEDIATE you could define them like: : ?PAIRS - ABORT" Conditionals not paired" ; 2 CONSTANT IF-CONS : IF [COMPILE] 0BRANCH CODE-HERE 0 COMPILE, IF-CONS ; IMMEDIATE : THEN IF-CONS ?PAIRS CODE-HERE SWAP CODE! ; IMMEDIATE (CODE-HERE and CODE! are analogous to HERE and !, except they operate on the definition's executable body, instead of the data space.) This would mean that CS-PICK and CS-ROLL would no longer map directly to PICK and ROLL, but I think these alternative definitions would suffice: : CS-PICK 1+ 2* 1- DUP >R PICK R> PICK ; : CS-ROLL 1+ 2* 1- DUP >R ROLL R> ROLL ; > >>BTW, I think that >> >>5 constant foo >> >>: compilation-semantics-of-foo >> POSTPONE foo ; >> >>: bar [ compilation-semantics-of-foo ] ; >> >>bar >> >>should produce 5. I am sure this will give headaches to your >>state-smart constants. I don't think so. Let's follow this through: 5 CONSTANT FOO \ create a constant named FOO : COMP-SEM-FOO POSTPONE FOO ; \ COMP-SEM-FOO's execution semantics == \ FOO's compilation semantics : BAR \ start a definition with the name BAR [ \ suspend compilation, eg. enter interpreting state COMP-SEM-FOO \ error -- this word's execution semantic are equivalent \ to another word's compilation semantics ] ; \ finish the definition Since when COMP-SEM-FOO is executed in the definition of BAR, the system is no longer in compiling state, and COMP-SEM-FOO essentially only has compilation semantics, the definition of BAR is an "ambiguous condition". Translation: The system is free to do whatever it likes. From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 21 Jun 1996 05:12:20 GMT Message-ID: <4qdavk$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pbogl$2t4@yama.mcc.ac.uk> <4pmhje$ffv@life.ai.mit.edu> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) wrote: > The C language had no standard document, no ANS >committee, no requests for information, etc. when it >started to be widely used after 1978. It just had a >good textbook, "The C Programming Language" by Brian >Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (usually just called K&R). >Having this book made C much more uniform, portable, >and standard than Forth will ever be. If it was as easy to implement a C compiler as it is to implement a threaded interpretor, C would be in the same boat as Forth. And if Forth was the system programming language for a portable operating system, *that* version of Forth would form a _de facto_ standard to the extent that the operating system was a popular one. Just look at the way that widely distributed source code such as C-Kermit has to be provided with *system* dependent 'make' for different minicomputers, and *compiler* dependent 'make' different MS-DOS compilers. And MS-DOS C's were even less supportive of 'portable' code before ANSI C. Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: GForth and /STRING Date: 21 Jun 1996 05:43:53 GMT Message-ID: <4qdcqp$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <834963605.AA00337@ear.co.at> <4q2o36$gnq@colombia.earthlink.net> <4q4ke4$i5j@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <4q8gpg$cib@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbuu1$dq3@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) 2nd part, because it is a 2nd issue. znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) wrote: > The reason I want *exactly* the Perl set of operators is that I > end up doing pre-processing in Perl for code in Forth. But if regular expressions are provided in Forth with the same capabilities as are provided by Perl, as well as with the ability to compile a library of commonly used regular expressions, is it necessary to do the pre-processing in Perl? Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: GForth and /STRING Date: 21 Jun 1996 05:40:03 GMT Message-ID: <4qdcjj$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <834963605.AA00337@ear.co.at> <4q2o36$gnq@colombia.earthlink.net> <4q4ke4$i5j@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <4q8gpg$cib@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbuu1$dq3@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) wrote: > So, for the simple processing requirements, it's easier for me to > write *one* program in *one* language (Perl) than it is for me to > write a pre-processor in Perl and an analysis program in Forth. > As a consequence, the only time I end up using Forth is when the > number-crunching is too slow in Perl. But if Forth could do all > the string things Perl does *easily* -- defined as mapping > exactly onto the set of regular expression operators I'm used > to from UNIX and Perl -- I would write *one* program in *one* > language: Forth. I think that this type of translation 'ease of use' is a different issue from 'clean slate' ease of use. If Forth regular expressions have all the capabilities of grep type regular expressions, then translating from one to the other can be automated. But for those who are not already in a context in which grep type regular expressions are superior to starting from scratch, both of the recent examples are superior in terms of ease of use to the magic character style regular expressions. For a casual user, there should be no necessity to recall more than one or two representations that indicate descriptions of the text rather than the text itself. And for a serious user, the capability to define and store a library of commonly used regular expressions as in the << >> implementation is great. BTW: precisely where is the regular epxression toolkit that was described as being 'on taygeta.com'? Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: stephenb@harlequin.co.uk (Stephen J Bevan) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 21 Jun 1996 08:16:11 GMT Message-ID: References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pbogl$2t4@yama.mcc.ac.uk> <4pmhje$ffv@life.ai.mit.edu> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> In-reply-to: mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu's message of 20 Jun 1996 13:31:15 GMT In article <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) writes: The C language had no standard document, no ANS committee, no requests for information, etc. when it started to be widely used after 1978. It just had a good textbook, "The C Programming Language" by Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (usually just called K&R). Having this book made C much more uniform, portable, and standard than Forth will ever be. Perhaps, but I thought it had more to do with the fact that many people used either pcc or a compiler derived from pcc. If most people are using the same compiler, there is little need for standards :-) Once other compilers were written and widely used, that is when the incompatability problems began and hence the need for a standard. From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: a better standard? /was: RFI: POSTPONE in interpretation state Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:24:27 GMT Message-ID: <4qikeb$sn6@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <4pr1nt$orj@hkusuc.hku.hk> <31C62F09.28B9@jaclyn.jpl.nasa.gov> <4q5vj1$gss@hkusuc.hku.hk> <4q8hbm$d09@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <31CA43CF.683A@forth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) Elizabeth Rather wrote: [ I wrote: ] >> ... >> If there are words marked obsolescent that refuse >> to die, it is not the place of 'ANS 2009' ... >> to kill them off. They turned out to be more >> necessary than people thought. > >Correct. My personal concern is that if folks keep including them in >their systems under the misguided assumption that one should supply >everything mentioned in the Standard, it will not be possible to >determine whether they're being used or just hanging around from >inertia. >> How many obsolescent words are in CORE, >None. >> and how many are in CORE EXT? >Am at the "Rochester" conf. in Toronto, and don't have my book w/ me, >but I believe it's only 4 or 5. >>Because, to the >> edge of my limited understanding, you can ask >> about CORE without asking about CORE EXT. >Right. So all we really need is an *additional* standard query / response for whether you have CORE EXT except those marked obscelescent, so someone can write to the non-obscelecent (sp?) words in the CORE EXT, and query to make sure *those* are there if the response to CORE EXT is that they are not all available. Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: GForth and /STRING Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:30:59 GMT Message-ID: <4qikqj$sn6@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: <834963605.AA00337@ear.co.at> <4q2o36$gnq@colombia.earthlink.net> <4q4ke4$i5j@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <4q8gpg$cib@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbuu1$dq3@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> <4qdcqp$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qenii$k4u@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) wrote: >Quoth the Bruce R. McFarling (ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au): >>2nd part, because it is a 2nd issue. > >>znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) wrote: > >>> The reason I want *exactly* the Perl set of operators is that I >>> end up doing pre-processing in Perl for code in Forth. > >> But if regular expressions are provided in Forth with >>the same capabilities as are provided by Perl, as well as with >>the ability to compile a library of commonly used regular >>expressions, is it necessary to do the pre-processing in >>Perl? > > No it isn't. Good. Then it's just a matter of providing those *capabilities*, and not the grep magic characters, which I do, and truly, hate. I'm looking at Wil Baden's source, too, but I wish someone would say *where* on taygeta.com the other Forth solution that was mentioned is located. I really think that something along these lines should be provided as an companion to the FSL, since as a pragamatic matter, monkeying around with weird data file formats is one of the *other* parts of Scientific Programming, and for academic research you often have to take it the way it's available and massage it to be what you want. For this, the ability to compile specific regular expressions, and refer to them by name in other regular expressions, is perfect. Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: Chris Jakeman Subject: Re: Regular Expressions Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 11:56:10 GMT Message-ID: <835444570snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> References: <835198524snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: apvpeter.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: apvpeter.demon.co.uk In article <835198524snz@apvpeter.demon.co.uk> cjakeman@apvpeter.demon.co.uk "Chris Jakeman" writes: > Take a look at FOSM (a FOrth String Matcher) on taygeta.com. This is set > of words for searching using regular expressions written by Gordon Charlton > and presented at EuroFORML '91 (and a follow-up later), so there are papers > to read as well as code to study. Oops. My mistake - it's something else of Gordon's that's on taygeta. I have the source files in question, but only printed copies of the articles written for EuroFORML (37 pages). Gordon is happy for me to upload the source to taygeta, but it needs some work first. It was written for MPE's GemFORTH/ST and pre-dates ANS. So it is in blocks not files, uses 4+ and 4*, not CELL+ and CELLS, and requires co-routines in the interpreter and indirect-threading. I am currently working through the source to see how portable I can make it - preferably ANS with environmental dependencies. I will post a message here as soon as a more portable version is available. Other references to pattern matching from the FIG Forth Conferences Index: Rodriguez, Pattern Matching In Forth, 11th Asilomar '89, p143, 14pp Carpenter, The Common Sense Pattern Classifier, euroForth '93, 10pps and in Forth Dimensions: Structured Pattern Matching, Ariel Scolnicov, Jul/Aug & Sep/Oct '92 Bye for now _ _______________________| |_____ Chris Jakeman / _Forth_Interest_Group_| |____/ / /_ __ ______ _ _ | | __ at Peterborough / __/ / / / __ / | | | | | |/ / (a cathedral city / / / / / /_/ / | \_| | | < 80 miles north of London) /_/ /_/ /___ / \____| |_|\_\ Where do you come from? / / ______________/ / United Kingdom Voice +44 (0)1733 346477 /_______________/ Chapter From: mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 23 Jun 1996 14:18:20 GMT Message-ID: <4qjjnc$emm@life.ai.mit.edu> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> <4qdavk$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> In article <4qdavk$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, Bruce R. McFarling wrote: >mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) wrote: >> The C language had no standard document, no ANS >>committee, no requests for information, etc. when it >>started to be widely used after 1978. It just had a >>good textbook, "The C Programming Language" by Brian >>Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (usually just called K&R). >>Having this book made C much more uniform, portable, >>and standard than Forth will ever be. > If it was as easy to implement a C compiler as >it is to implement a threaded interpretor, C would be >in the same boat as Forth. C compiliers are written in C. It is perfectly possible for a C programmer to change the compiler, just harder to do. But isn't any program harder to write in C than it is in Forth? I don't think this is the problem. C programmers are not interesting in changing the compiler, they are interested in following K&R or ANS C. This is a very clear difference between C programmers and Forth programmers. Why should that be? > And if Forth was the system programming language >for a portable operating system, *that* version of Forth >would form a _de facto_ standard to the extent that the >operating system was a popular one. Forth IS the system programming language for portable operating system. Its just that not one of them is popular enough. It is possible to have a good language and never write anything interesting using it. It is possible to have a bad language and use it to write great programs. Just because Forth is better than other languages doesn't mean that Forth programmers will always write better programs than other programmers. I marvel at the small size and simplicity of the Forth language+operating systems circa 1980. But Forth has not been used to write an operating system that easily handles the multi-gigabyte disk drives and the GUI interfaces popular today, or even to write an application, such as an editor, that has captured the attention of computer users who are not Forth programmers. > Just look at the way that widely distributed source >code such as C-Kermit has to be provided with *system* dependent >'make' for different minicomputers, and *compiler* dependent >'make' different MS-DOS compilers. And MS-DOS C's were even >less supportive of 'portable' code before ANSI C. Kermit is a very good example of what it takes to write portable code in C. Most of the conditional tests and changes are not concerned with the differences in the C langauge between systems, but in the differences in the system calls available and the location of routines in different libraries. These problems are made much worse by the differences between MS-DOS etc. and the various flavors of Unix than between the various flavors of Unix. So the ANS C standard and the POSIX standard had to say "get rid of those differences". This was not necessary at the time K&R was written because C was only used with Unix and there weren't many versions of Unix. The ANS Forth standard has lots of options. If you want to write something as big as Kermit in Forth and have it run on all the possible ANS Forth systems, you are going to have the same problem Kermit has with all the different C compilers and operating calls. The solution is to have tighter standards with no options. This is something Forth programmers are unwilling to accept. -- Michael Coughlin mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cambridge, MA USA From: mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 23 Jun 1996 14:38:00 GMT Message-ID: <4qjks8$f0g@life.ai.mit.edu> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> In article , Stephen J Bevan wrote: >In article <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) writes: > The C language had no standard document, no ANS > committee, no requests for information, etc. when it > started to be widely used after 1978. It just had a > good textbook, "The C Programming Language" by Brian > Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie (usually just called K&R). > Having this book made C much more uniform, portable, > and standard than Forth will ever be. > >Perhaps, but I thought it had more to do with the fact that many >people used either pcc or a compiler derived from pcc. If most people >are using the same compiler, there is little need for standards :-) >Once other compilers were written and widely used, that is when the >incompatability problems began and hence the need for a standard. Quite so. The code used to write the pcc compiler defined the C standard of a certain era. A standard based on Forth code that would give the same results on any CPU seems like a good idea to me. But it has lots of problems. The code has to be absolutely bug free. The system design has to be so perfect that nobody can think of a change that would improve it. The code has to be well commented so Forth students understand exactly what is being done and why. Anyone can think of more impossible requirements; this is why the committee didn't use that approach. A Forth textbook does not need to have that level of perfection. It just needs to tell what Fort is, how it works, and how to use it well. K&R's textbook was still perfectly useful long after the pcc compiler was replaced by better compilers that produced faster and smaller code. -- Michael Coughlin mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cambridge, MA USA From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 23 Jun 1996 16:17:16 GMT Message-ID: <4qjqmc$sp4@hkusuc.hku.hk> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> <4qdavk$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qjjnc$emm@life.ai.mit.edu> Mike Coughlin (mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote: >> Just look at the way that widely distributed source >>code such as C-Kermit has to be provided with *system* dependent >>'make' for different minicomputers, and *compiler* dependent >>'make' different MS-DOS compilers. And MS-DOS C's were even >>less supportive of 'portable' code before ANSI C. > Kermit is a very good example of what it takes to write >portable code in C. Most of the conditional tests and changes >are not concerned with the differences in the C langauge >between systems, but in the differences in the system calls >available and the location of routines in different libraries. >These problems are made much worse by the differences between >MS-DOS etc. and the various flavors of Unix than between the >various flavors of Unix. So the ANS C standard and the POSIX >standard had to say "get rid of those differences". This was >not necessary at the time K&R was written because C was only >used with Unix and there weren't many versions of Unix. > The ANS Forth standard has lots of options. If you want >to write something as big as Kermit in Forth and have it >run on all the possible ANS Forth systems, you are going >to have the same problem Kermit has with all the different >C compilers and operating calls. The solution is to have >tighter standards with no options. This is something Forth >programmers are unwilling to accept. Wait a minute! The problem with "writing kermit in Forth" is that all the operating system calls are in some other language (usually in C and sometimes in assembly). So if you write something in C you might be standard (on a Un*x you might even easily be standard) but how do you communicate with the OS in Forth in a portable way? When I have mentioned that many of our problems would be solved by some standard interface to C & the OS calls, I get flamed and stoned. ;-) Many programmers say that in C and perl you can do anything. I would like to see when they start telling that in C, perl and Forth you can do anything. Andras From: h9290246@hkuxa.hku.hk (Zsoter Andras) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 23 Jun 1996 16:21:26 GMT Message-ID: <4qjqu6$sp4@hkusuc.hku.hk> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> <4qjks8$f0g@life.ai.mit.edu> Mike Coughlin (mikc@gnu.ai.mit.edu) wrote: > Quite so. The code used to write the pcc compiler defined >the C standard of a certain era. A standard based on Forth code >that would give the same results on any CPU seems like a good >idea to me. But it has lots of problems. The code has to be >absolutely bug free. The system design has to be so perfect >that nobody can think of a change that would improve it. The ;-))) The Forth community cannot agree on the meaning of DIGIT, ." , ' , or CASE (this is the worst). How do you expect that there will ever be a "system so perfect that nobody can think of a change that would improve it"? I guess this is hopeless, Forth is just too easy to change, and disregard the rest of the world. Andras From: JEThomas@ix.netcom.com (Jonah Thomas) Subject: Another long time ago.... Date: 24 Jun 1996 03:31:17 GMT Message-ID: <4ql265$jvr@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 8:31:17 PM PDT 1996 A long time ago, someone whose post has slipped past my news server said: >Simon Read wrote Re: Fix Forth, please [ .. ] >> The control flow stack and compiler security already prevent me from >> (very occasionally) doing unusual things to control flow. This: >> DO .. WHILE ... LOOP ... (normal post-loop stuff) >> ELSE 2R> 2DROP (exceptional post-loop stuff) THEN (other stuff) >Compiler security can't be there in an ANS system. Also, the control >flow stack is not in the way in this case. What crashes your example >is your assumption on how a DO LOOP is implemented (on the return >stack, with two items). When 2R> 2DROP is replaced with UNLOOP your code >works (tested with iForth). !! I missed the original here. I think it's acceptable to do some compiler security in an ANS system. I don't know what the limits are. While I agree on the problem with 2R> 2DRO in place of UNLOOP , I'm not certain it works in general to leave the loop before doing the UNLOOP . Now that I remember it, someone on the committee said during a committee meeting (I think it was Elizabeth Rather) and no one disagreed, that the only thing you can portably do with UNLOOP is EXIT but the committee wasn't ready to bundle EXIT into UNLOOP . The problem is that they don't require DO and LOOP to nest with IF THEN WHILE etc. A "do-sys" may be a different size from an "init" or a "dest". CS-PICK and CS-ROLL work only if there is no do-sys that will be affected on the control-flow stack. If a do-sys takes _no_ space on the control-flow stack, then you might be able to do DO ... IF ... LOOP ... ELSE ... UNLOOP ... THEN and have it work. If a do-sys is the _same_ size as an init then you can do DO ... WHILE ... LOOP ... ELSE .. UNLOOP ... THEN and have that work. I think it's a fine thing to do, and I'm glad you did it that way with iForth. iForth can provide it and be a standard system. But programs which use it won't run on all standard systems, and in fact are depending on a behavior the standard doesn't mention. From: znmeb@news (Ed Borasky) Subject: Re: Fix Forth, please Date: 24 Jun 1996 15:13:10 GMT Message-ID: <4qmba6$ngn@myst.plaza.ds.adp.com> References: <4op5bk$cev@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> <4pmv3n$3gk@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qbjr3$pg7@life.ai.mit.edu> <4qdavk$2j@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4qjjnc$emm@life.ai.mit.edu> <4qjqmc$sp4@hkusuc.hku.hk> <31CE15F9.3922@forth.com> Quoth the Elizabeth Rather (erather@forth.com): >Zsoter Andras wrote: >> Many programmers say that in C and perl you can do anything. >> I would like to see when they start telling that in C, perl and Forth >> you can do anything. >I will certainly say that in Forth we can do anything. Don't know much about >perl. For embedded environments it's generally _easier_ to do it in Forth; >on complex OS-hosted systems it's sometimes simpler to call other routines >(which we've given papers on doing). TCP/IP is an example, but I would >certainly never say it _couldn't_ be done in Forth, because Greg Bailey has >been doing it for years with his native PC systems. As someone who learned Perl in 14 days (not from "Perl in 21 Days" :-) I will say that you can do anything in Perl. The nice thing about Perl is that it generally contains useful interfaces to everything available in its host OS. For example, you could write a Web browser in Perl without having to interface to any "C" routines. I even saw somewhere a Forth interpreter written in about half a page of Perl. Currently, I do 95 - 98 percent of my programming at work in Perl, and 80 - 90 percent of my home/hobby stuff in it as well. If I get something that needs to be speeded up or runs out of memory on my HP100LX (640K DOS space), I will rewrite it in Forth using the Perl code as a prototype. That's pretty rare, though. Even on the 16-bit 8 MHz 80186 in 640K, most of the things I do take at worst a few hours. Even though I need to sleep, the HP100LX doesn't. :-) About the only thing I *wouldn't* do in Perl is matrix number-crunching. First of all, Perl 4 has only one-dimensional arrays. Second, Perl arrays are more like lists, so indexing is slow. And I wouldn't use Perl for software that I was selling, since you can only distribute source code. If I ever wrote something that I thought there was a market for, I would certainly translate it to Forth, at least for limited environments like the HP Palmtop PC line. And I would most likely use a target compiler on the Forth code for maximum speed. -- M. Edward Borasky How to Stop A Folksinger Cold # 2 "Are you going to Scarborough Fair?..." No. From: "Bruce R. McFarling" Subject: Re: RFI: POSTPONE in interpretation state Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:46:42 GMT Message-ID: <4qmnqi$bu4@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit) "M.L.Gassanenko" wrote: >State-smard words cannot replace functionality of ordinary ones .. [implementer mode on] .. [ stuff ] .. [now parable teller mode on] >Now we see that state-smart words cannot replace ordinary ones. >A standard system cannot define 2DUP as >: 2DUP > STATE @ > IF COMPILE OVER COMPILE OVER > ELSE OVER OVER > THEN >; IMMEDIATE >Now, is POSTPONE so much useful on classical systems? NO! As far as I am concerned, *if* it avoids a 'classical system / non-classical system' barrier, that is useful on both. If it lets me program on a classical system for eventual use on a non-classical system, why allocate all the benefit to the 'non-classical' system? The range of the 'classical system' has been extended as well. Of course, there *is* that 'if' up there. This is contingent on bridging the gap. For which the following applies (if I read it correctly): > Does ANS Forth provide any means to implement 2DUP as a > state-smart word that will work correctly on non-classical > systems? NO! The code that does this: >C: 2DUP COMPILE OVER COMPILE OVER ; >I: 2DUP OVER OVER ; >is not standard! >Now, what POSTPONE is for? >(Except that it enables novices not to know what is immediate?) I don't believe this is a valid argument. That doesn't prove the opposite (your conclusion is not necessarily wrong because you advance a flawed argument -- there's a fancy latin name for that fallacy, but I forget it right now) Here's where I think the fallacy lies: 2DUP has to behave like 2DUP for the system to be standard. *But* 2DUP does *not* have to be implemented using only the standard, in order to be standard! So if C: ... ; and I: ... ; definitions *succeed* in creating a standard 2DUP that *adds* this implementation specific behavior -- there is no problem. Standard implementations are not a subset of the core standard -- they are a superset of the core standard, and quite likely of any of the wordsets from the standard that they include. Of course, my prejudice against state-smart words -- in particular, my views on the folly of sacrificing the bounded-information horizon of Forth words when it is unnecessary -- color this conclusion. And may even determine this conclusion. So your mileage will probably vary. Virtually, Bruce R. McFarling, Newcastle, NSW ecbm@cc.newcastle.edu.au From: Bernd Paysan Subject: Re: gforth for MS-DOS Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:38:22 +0200 Message-ID: <31CC75DE.42B75348@informatik.tu-muenchen.de> References: <31CAC9DD.1A72@uk.sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) Andrew Holt - Sun Professional Services wrote: > > Hi All, > > Has anyone got a compiled version of gforth for DOS that > I can FTP ? > > I have built the unix version, but I dont have access > to a C compiler for DOS Because there is so much demand, I'll put a compiled gforth for DOS (with GO32 - ready to execute) accessible from my homepage. -- Bernd Paysan "Late answers are wrong answers!" http://www.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~paysan/ From: JEThomas@ix.netcom.com (Jonah Thomas) Subject: Re: a better standard? /was: RFI: POSTPONE in interpretation state Date: 24 Jun 1996 08:29:55 GMT Message-ID: <4qljm3$5pu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4pr1nt$orj@hkusuc.hku.hk> <31C62F09.28B9@jaclyn.jpl.nasa.gov> <4q5vj1$gss@hkusuc.hku.hk> <4q8hbm$d09@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 3:29:55 AM CDT 1996 In <4q8hbm$d09@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> "Bruce R. McFarling" writes: > How many obsolescent words are in CORE, >and how many are in CORE EXT? Because, to the >edge of my limited understanding, you can ask >about CORE without asking about CORE EXT. There are 7 obsolescent words. 6 of them are in Core Ext and deal in various ways with parsing the input stream. TIB and #TIB are mostly replaced by SOURCE . EXPECT is replaced by ACCEPT . QUERY can be replaced by NUP ACCEPT EVALUATE . CONVERT can be replaced by >NUMBER . SPAN isn't needed by ACCEPT which returns the SPAN value on the stack. FORGET is in Tools Ext and is partly replaced by MARKER words. From: Marty McGowan Subject: FCBIG (Forth-C Bindings Interest Group) re-awakening Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 17:37:09 -0400 Message-ID: <31CF0A85.77A7@att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) If you are interested in being able to call C routines from Forth, you will want to be on a mailing list where we are discussing the subject. Send me a letter with a request to subscribe to FCBIG, the Forth-C Bindings Interest Group. This list will remain unmoderated so long as the discussion is of a high tone. I will routinely post summaries to the net, but, of course, any of us are free to comment on what we see and hear, now aren't we!? The list was quite active last fall. I have a paper which I presented at Rochester '96, and will be soon posting it's text-version to the mailing list. JEThomas and Stephen Pelc made some (of their typically) sound contributions, so I will distribute an amalgam of all this work soon. -- Marty McGowan mcfly@att.com OR martin.j.mcgowan@att.com AT&T POST Directory Services "Use your POST Directory Handle", mine's "McFly" Date: 25 Jun 1996 00:14:00 +0100 From: All@business.forth-ev.de (Wolfgang Allinger) Message-ID: <6BY60CPM7QB@business.forth-ev.de> References: Subject: Re: relative popularity of C and Forth On 23 Jun 96 in article (Julian V. Noble) wrote: snipp---- > I am constantly being amazed by boasts over the Internet that > "...such and such a project required X million lines of code" > as though that were an achievement. Hallo Julian, I think, you made a good explanation to what I also realized in a long time in industrie. I think that nearly no boss is interested in good and quick work but only on big projects wasting a lot of resources and money. That shows how important he is .... :-( A lot of companies run in trouble by making things gigantic and complicated... Bye Wolfgang -- FORTHing @ work Cheap Fast Good ...pick any two of them Dipl.-Ing. Wolfgang Allinger Brander Weg 6 Voice/FAX [+49] [0] 212 / 66 8 11 D-42699 SOLINGEN eMail: all@business.forth-ev.de GERMANY ## CrossPoint v3.1 R ##