Minutes of the GEnie Forth RT Guest Conference. with special guest, Frank Sergeant, author of the minimalist Forth for ms-dos, 'Pygmy'. Frank discusses many of his reasons for creating Pygmy and shares other views regarding Forth. Contents of this transcript Copyright (c) 1990, GEnie Forth RoundTable. Released for duplication and redistribution in whole or in part, provided all origination credit is included. Please note: There is a pre-conference file titled pre-pyg.txt. It is recommended you also capture it to concatenate to the head of this transcript. It is short, yet lends insight into Frank's views. Date: 06/21/90 Time: 22:28EDT Attendees: [GARY-S] [[Kent] K.PETERSON5] [[Frank] FIGGUEST] [[jax4figboard] JAX] [[Len] NMORGENSTERN] [[Wil] W.BADEN1] [[Doug] D.PHILIPS3] [[Dennis] D.RUFFER] [[Robert] R.BERKEY] [[john] JDHALL] [T.GUIDMOND] [[paul] P.THUTT] Minutes: <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> is here. is here. <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> This is my first conference. I just joined GEnie this week. welcome - you have an interesting first conference to participate in is here. is here. 2 minutes to show time folks <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> Jax, are you still suspended? <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I am firing up Pygmy on my other machine <[Wil] W.BADEN1> is here. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> good idea - I wish I could do that also! <[Len] NMORGENSTERN> I will be able to compile stuff if there is a question what a super idea len ! <[jax4figboard] JAX> Fired, Kent. <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> bummer what a super idea len ! <[jax4figboard] JAX> you lose some battles on the way to winning the war. is here. <[jax4figboard] JAX> They proved their lack of imagination in canning me. <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> How do you guys keep track of all the conversation threads? 30 seconds - then we go formal PARTY TIME - so cool it The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome this ... evening's special guest, Frank Sergeant, a computer hardware ... and software enthusiast who has programmed in a variety of high- .. level and assembly languages on mainframes and micros. ... His first hardware design was a tiny 1802 system with a 32 byte .. cassette loader he taught to play 'Someone to Watch Over Me' ... and to read punched cards. Recent projects have included a ... Zilog Super-8 system with a version of Pygmy in ROM and a ... floppy disk drive aligner on a RTX2001A for the RTX design ... contest sponsored by Harris. Frank has implemented Forths ... for the 6809, 68000, 8088/8086, and Super-8, including ... the famous Armadillo Int'l Color Forth. He is here tonight ... to discuss his excellent, public domain, minimalist Forth... for I-clones, Pygmy, initially based on cm-Forth. ... - Please help welcome Frank Sergeant ... .. .. .. .. .. ga Frank is here. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Today, I wrote Pygmy Forth for 3 reasons: <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 1. I was unhappy with certain aspects <[Frank] FIGGUEST> of L&P's F83: <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a. The slow & awkward editor <[Frank] FIGGUEST> b. The size & complexity <[Frank] FIGGUEST> (then what must I think of F-PC?) <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 2. Certain ideas from cmFORTH appealed to <[Frank] FIGGUEST> me very strongly: <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a. PUSH POP (instead of >R R>) <[Frank] FIGGUEST> b. FOR NEXT <[Frank] FIGGUEST> c. no IMMEDIATE word <[Frank] FIGGUEST> (but it does have immediate words) <[Frank] FIGGUEST> d. simple Meta-Compilation <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 3. I wanted my Forth to be under my <[Frank] FIGGUEST> complete control. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Tomorrow, I may have written it for other reasons. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Clarifications: <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 1. 'Pygmy' is short for 'Pygmy Forth'. It is NOT <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a new language. It is Forth (as I see it) all <[Frank] FIGGUEST> the way. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 2. Pygmy is NOT Public Domain. It is shareware. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> The fee is reasonable hjzUJ <[Frank] FIGGUEST> The fee is reasonable (from a minimum of ZERO to <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a maximum of all you have - your choice). <[Frank] FIGGUEST> 3. Is Pygmy perfect? Of course not. is here <[jax4figboard] JAX> Frank, reading back over your "checkered career" :-) ... <[jax4figboard] JAX> makes me think of Zimmer and the "Forth of the MOnth Club" ... <[jax4figboard] JAX> to what extent do you feel you share an approach to Forth with TZ? <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I think our philosophies are quite different ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> but we both seem to be willing to do a lot of work ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> on our Forths. His is a massive project and mine is much ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> smaller. I think a Forth should be small ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Wil's recent postings said a lot that I feel about it. <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I like your concept so much, I have put Ed Forth on a back burner. Pygmy may be the better way to go. I have one reservation -- it' s not classical Forth. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> In what way ? <[Wil] W.BADEN1> Classical Forth does not have the things you like most about cmForth. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Yes, ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I see your point. My feeling is that Pygmy is fairly true to the ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> deeper, underlying spirit of Forth. ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I but it has certain differences from what we have been used to. ga <[Wil] W.BADEN1> I think that cmForth and Pygmy may be better than classical Forth, but Chuck is 18 years too late. (All verbs regular in English would be an impprovement.) <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> I have a few questions ... <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> so answer as many is appropriate or that you think are interesting... <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> a) If you register for Pygmy do you get any printed material? <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> b) Do you have a quick reference card? <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> c) Do you like the current state of documentation? <[Doug] D.PHILIPS3> d) Do you do more *to* Pygmy than *with* it? <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a: no ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> b: no <[Frank] FIGGUEST> c: Yes & No ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> The documentation can always be clearer and I will almost ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> certainly make some improvements. As I mentioned in the Pre-Pyg posting ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I am interested in how to put someone smoothly into the driver's seat with ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> a new software pkg. ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> On the other hand, it is all there and accessible and of a size ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> that I think people can face without overwhelm. I hope to do better though ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> d: yes & no ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I really use Pygmy. I have done some extensive financial calculations ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> bond & money-mkt type work for clients, pop-up menus, etc. and have ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> been pretty happy with it. So, I have been using more for real work ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> lately than I have been working on it. ga is here. <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> Frank, I came over to Pygmy from Zen and had no great culture shock... <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> the for - next did take a bit of getting used to but now I prefer it... is here. <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> I see by the BBS postings that you've gone to a ?FOR which looks good... <[Kent] K.PETERSON5> my question is, will we see a Pygmy 1.3 soon or should we patch our own systems? <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Pygmy goes out into the ether and I don't know what happens to it. I see numerous downloads of it ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> from GEnie. I gather it is distri. by Compserve and one or . .. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> more shareware houses, but I never hear any details. ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> Why change the water in the gold fish bowl when they haven't drunk ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> all I gave them last time? ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> So, hearing from people who either like or usePygmy or both . .. <[Frank] FIGGUEST> (such as yourself) has really lifted my spirits and I do now plan on ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> releasing a v1.3. My current "in house" version has some improvements ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> already - such as the editor knowing where the end of the file is ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> and search across screens not needing to be given an ending scr # ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> and HOLES to make opening up a file to add screens in the middle easy ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> In addition, I want to tend to as many of the "little" things as possible ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> which is one reason I want to hear the troubles everyone has had getting ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> started with it. <[jax4figboard] JAX> Frank, speaking of "different than classical Forth", what do you think of ANS Forth proceedings and the BASIS? ga <[Frank] FIGGUEST> ha ha ha ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> That's a favorite topic of mine at the moment ... <[Frank] FIGGUEST> I think that the committee has an impossible job to do and ..