Minutes of the Forth RoundTable guest Conference,
 with special guest, John D. Hall, FIG Treasurer.
 Topic: 'The Business of FIG'
 
 Entire contents of this transcript copyright(c) 1989
 GEnie Forth RoundTable. The contents may be freely
 copied and distributed in whole or in part provided
 origination credit is included.

Date: 12/14/89   Time: 22:29EST
Attendees:
[[Gary] GARY-S]
[[John] JDHALL]
[[Dave] OLORIN]
[[Len] NMORGENSTERN]
[[Kevin] APPERT]
[[Dennis] D.RUFFER]
[FIGCHAPTERS]
[[[Robert]] R.BERKEY]
[V.STAMPS]
[[John W] J.WAVRIK1]

Minutes:
<[John] JDHALL> No, I have an opening remarks that are a little long...
<[John] JDHALL> but they come slow.. ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> no prob
<[John] JDHALL> I am just looking at the help messages.. ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Did Computer Literacy have any of the books I recommended ?
<[John] JDHALL> Yes, they are very good books.  The ones I got seemed to be..
<[John] JDHALL> newer revisions but they were all Nutshell books. Thanks..ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Glad I could be of some help...
<[Gary] GARY-S> I get so much help from others it's nice to be able..
<[Gary] GARY-S> to help someone else occassionally
<[Gary] GARY-S> We are in sort of a holding pattern for the moment...
<[Gary] GARY-S> but you knew that..
<[Gary] GARY-S> John <- meet -> john
<J.WAVRIK1> Hello John
<NMORGENSTERN> is here.
<[John] JDHALL> Hi, It seems as if we have just talked.  We met at FORML, Gary..
 ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> Are you still undecided or can I remove the (tentative ) from 
your conference ?
<[John W] J.WAVRIK1> Let me see how this one goes
<[Gary] GARY-S> you got it
<[Gary] GARY-S> 2 minutes to show time
<[John W] J.WAVRIK1> I want to see if I have any trouble with the connection 
with the Univ.
<D.RUFFER> is here.
<APPERT> is here.
<[Gary] GARY-S>    The GEnie Forth RoundTable is very pleased to welcome ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  John D. Hall as tonight's special guest. John is a programmer..
<[Gary] GARY-S>  with Lockheed Palo Alto, and more importantly for tonight's...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  conference, a FIG Board Member and the FIG Treasurer. ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Mr. Hall has been involved in Forth since 1980, writing and...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  using his own Z80 kernel. He is now developing a interactive...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Forth for the TI 34010 graphics processor. ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  John has been on the FIG Board since 1982 and has served ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  as the FIG Treasurer for the last five years.
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Here to explain all you ever wanted to know about FIG, ...
<[Gary] GARY-S>  Tonight's GEnie Forth RoundTable guest, John D. Hall.
<[Gary] GARY-S>  ga John
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> This is a little long, but comes at 3 sec intervals..
<[John] JDHALL> My recollections.........
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Forth Interest Group was organized in 1978 and one of the
<[John] JDHALL> first things that was done was the formation of Forth
<[John] JDHALL> Implementation Team lead by Bill Ragsdale to build figForth
<[John] JDHALL> and put it in the public domain.  Because figForth was
<[John] JDHALL> implemented on many microprocessors based on a single
<[John] JDHALL> model and released with complete source listings,  it
<[John] JDHALL> became the defacto standard of Forth.  The listing were
<[John] JDHALL> made available for $15 and were extremely popular.  To
<[John] JDHALL> encourage extensions and modifications to Forth, the same
<[John] JDHALL> people started Forth Dimensions, FORML and the Forth
<[John] JDHALL> Standards Team.  Many of these same people wrote or
<[John] JDHALL> encouraged others to write articles for Byte and the famous
<[John] JDHALL> Byte Forth issue was published in Oct of 1980.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Money was coming in faster than new uses for it could be
<[John] JDHALL> found and sales taxes were collected but no formal
<[John] JDHALL> organization existed to pay the sales tax and avoid any
<[John] JDHALL> income tax.  At this time, FIG was only a loose confederation
<[John] JDHALL> of interested Forth users that were spread around the world,
<[John] JDHALL> so a California non-profit corporation, Forth Interest
<[John] JDHALL> Group,Inc., was formed to centralize the contacts, establish a
<[John] JDHALL> central distribution point for Forth information and establish
<[John] JDHALL> the formal function of publishing Forth Dimensions and the
<[John] JDHALL> FORML proceedings and the distribution of these and the
<[John] JDHALL> figForth listings.  No great thought was given to the other
<[John] JDHALL> reasons for having a corporation.  It was primarily to
<[John] JDHALL> centralize the loose confederation of people and ideas and
<[John] JDHALL> distribute contributed literature.  FIG was guided by a Board
<[John] JDHALL> of Directors consisting of Bill Ragsdale, Kim Harris, John
<[John] JDHALL> James, Dave Kilbridge and Dave Boulton.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> The corporation wasn't the answer to the problems of
<[John] JDHALL> organization, it took people to make ideas happen.
<[John] JDHALL> Organization ideas were and still are plentiful, people to
<[John] JDHALL> implement the ideas were not.  From the beginning
<[John] JDHALL> business meetings were held one evening a month on the
<[John] JDHALL> Tuesday before the 4th Saturday of the month.  Before the
<[John] JDHALL> corporation, FIG and the Silicon Valley chapter were the
<[John] JDHALL> same and the planning for the Sat. meeting was
<[John] JDHALL> finalized on the previous Tue.   As the corporation was
<[John] JDHALL> formed, the corporation business meeting began to take over
<[John] JDHALL> the topics of the Tue. meeting until finally the Silicon Valley
<[John] JDHALL> chapter planning was split off to another night.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Since actions took more time than was available at the
<[John] JDHALL> business meetings, committees were formed to plan and
<[John] JDHALL> guide activities as existing or new functions were needed.
<[John] JDHALL> FORML and Forth Dimensions needed guidance.  FORML split
<[John] JDHALL> into a conference and a convention.  People around the
<[John] JDHALL> world were forming group meetings and wanted to be kept
<[John] JDHALL> informed, so a chapter committee was formed.  Literature
<[John] JDHALL> needed to be published and new books and publications
<[John] JDHALL> needed to be reviewed. A publication committee was formed.
<[John] JDHALL> Direct communication with the Forth community was
<[John] JDHALL> needed, so a connection to GEnie was established and a
<[John] JDHALL> committee of sysops was formed   All of the literature
<[John] JDHALL> needed to be distributed and orders needed to be filled, so
<[John] JDHALL> an outside organization was hired.  Money was being
<[John] JDHALL> received and distributed on a daily basis and this was more
<[John] JDHALL> than the volunteer treasurer could handle.  From the
<[John] JDHALL> beginning, all of the functions of the FIG, Inc were
<[John] JDHALL> handled by a group volunteers with the help a few paid
<[John] JDHALL> people such as the editor of Forth Dimensions and Mountain
<[John] JDHALL> View Press for distribution.  When we saw our way clear
<[John] JDHALL> enough, a management organization was hired to try to tie
<[John] JDHALL> all the office functions together to establish a central office
<[John] JDHALL> for mail distribution and phone under the direct control of
<[John] JDHALL> FIG, Inc.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> We are now at a point now where FIG, Inc, includes
<[John] JDHALL>   1)  Editing, publication and Distribution of Forth Dimensions
<[John] JDHALL>   2)  Production and convening the Annual FORML Conference
<[John] JDHALL>   3)  Publication and distribution of the FORML Proceedings
<[John] JDHALL>   4)  Production and convening the Annual Forth Convention
<[John] JDHALL>   5)  Support and Sponsorship of the GEnie RoundTable
<[John] JDHALL>   6)  Support and organization of approx 50 Chapters
<[John] JDHALL>   7)  Distribution of over 90 publications
<[John] JDHALL>   8)  Production and distribution of a growing disk library
<[John] JDHALL>   9)  Membership enrollment of over 2000 members
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> FIG, Inc is governed by a 7 member Board of Directors:
<[John] JDHALL> Dennis Ruffer, John Hall, Terry Sutton, Mike Elola,
<[John] JDHALL> Robert Smith, Jack Brown, Wil Baden
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Business is conducted by the Business Group including
<[John] JDHALL> the above and:
<[John] JDHALL> C.H. Ting, Jan Shepherd, Bob Barr, Marlin Ouverson,
<[John] JDHALL> Bill Ragsdale, Robert Reiling, Tom Zimmer and others
<[John] JDHALL> who are interested in the business of FIG
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> The growth of FIG was probably not as chaotic as I am
<[John] JDHALL> remembering it, but the organizing was driven by the needs
<[John] JDHALL> that  had to be filled rather than with a planned structure
<[John] JDHALL> and the organizing was done by those of us who are
<[John] JDHALL> technically competent in Forth but not necessarily in
<[John] JDHALL> organizations.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Was FIG the answer for Forth?
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> Well, yes, if the question was how do we establish a central
<[John] JDHALL> focal point for Forth.  What we had done is created a
<[John] JDHALL> "passive" organization, given it  ability to reach out to the
<[John] JDHALL> Forth community and made it financially self-supporting as
<[John] JDHALL> long as there were enough people who were interested in
<[John] JDHALL> Forth and willing to support FIG.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> What we had not done was create an "active" environment
<[John] JDHALL> for "encouraging" those who were interested in Forth,
<[John] JDHALL> "instructing" those who were new to Forth, "supporting the
<[John] JDHALL> creativity" of people who were advancing Forth or even
<[John] JDHALL> "establishing the solid technical foundation" and background
<[John] JDHALL> for the growth of Forth use.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> There are probably other things the FIG is not and should
<[John] JDHALL> be.
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> We have the organization and it has the room for new
<[John] JDHALL> directions.  How do we now make it the organizational
<[John] JDHALL> answer for Forth?
<[John] JDHALL>
<[John] JDHALL> ..
<[John] JDHALL> Thanks, for listening.  ga
<FIGCHAPTERS> is here.
<R.BERKEY> is here.
<FIGCHAPTERS> Hey JD, thanx for swinging by!
<FIGCHAPTERS> We all know what FIG *is* ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> It is the central repository ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> the one place we can send our clients that we are *sure* they 
willl ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> be able to get some info about Forth!!! ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> However ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> in the category of things FIG is *not* ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> some people think "Financially sound" is in that category. .,..
<FIGCHAPTERS> ... ???
<[John] JDHALL> FIG is financially sound.  We can provide the services..
<[John] JDHALL> that we are currently supplying..
<[John] JDHALL> We may have to cut back on the quality..
<[John] JDHALL> But FIG will never not exist and Forth Dimensions..
<[John] JDHALL> will probably continue to be published.  We..
<[John] JDHALL> may not be able to expand into new area without additional..
<[John] JDHALL> funds.  However, FIG in some form will be here for awhile.  ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> jax has a follow-up, ga jax
<FIGCHAPTERS> " cut back on quality " ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> and "Forth Dimensions will probably continue" ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> doesn't sound sound.
<[John] JDHALL> We have made Forth Dimensions into a slick and well edited 
publication,..
<[John] JDHALL> but its main function is to distribute technical information.  .
<[John] JDHALL> If we can't afford it we will have to cut the quality of..
<[John] JDHALL> the printing and if necessary to quality of the editor who..
<[John] JDHALL> is paid.  ..
<[John] JDHALL> We would only do this at the last resort, but the important 
part of..
<[John] JDHALL> FD is the distribution of contributed articles.  ga
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> you say, its main function is to distribute technical 
information.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Should there not be an active growth policy of some kind?
<[John] JDHALL> Yes, and we have tried as many way as we can, but the results..
<[John] JDHALL> so far have been disappointing.  We are still looking for..
<[John] JDHALL> ways and the people to implement these ideas. ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> I can reiterate on that a little...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, we do have growth in our plans...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but with what appears to be a shrinking industry...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we have not had much luck...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> some of our activities have not helped...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we are reviewing everything at this point...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and we are always open to new suggestions...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> let us know what you think would help...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and we will try to implement it...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> however, our budget is only as large as...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> we have members.  The chicken and egg theory definitely...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> plays an improtant role.
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but we are looking as far ahead as we can see.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I might add the bloom has gone from most computer groups - 
you're back jax
<FIGCHAPTERS> John, Dennis ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> this is a subject that I think ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> almost all of us here in this "virtual room" ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> have mooted ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> so in this public forum ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> let me reitierate a cupla things ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> FIG is starving in the midst of plenty.
<FIGCHAPTERS> IN this respect it resembles the United States Chess Federation 
in the mid 1970's ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> with the smae problems ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> and some of the same causes.
<FIGCHAPTERS> Declining membership ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> Collapsing magazine finances ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> Abandonment by advertisers ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> Self perpetuating Board of Directors. A connection here? Your 
ideas, please.
<[John] JDHALL> I have heard this before, Jax, but I am waiting for the method..
<[John] JDHALL> and the people interested in following up with the 
implementation. ..
<[John] JDHALL> I don't want to contridict Dennis, but if there was an..
<V.STAMPS> is here.
<[John] JDHALL> important function that we have missed and needs to be done,..
<[John] JDHALL> we will find the money by removing it from some other..
<[John] JDHALL> less pressing area.  What we need are active, active people..
<[John] JDHALL> who will take the "Bull.." and run with the idea. ga
<[Gary] GARY-S> questions / comments ??
<[Gary] GARY-S> ga jax
<FIGCHAPTERS> John , we've discussed a possible program before ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> 1) 4D has to be put on financially sound footing ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> 2) membership and advertising has to be increased ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> 3) FIG has to realize that its main job is to service and attract 
the novice and has to go into the school system.
<FIGCHAPTERS> There is a model for "FIG Perestroika" ....
<FIGCHAPTERS> to be found in the last-reel rescue of the United States Chess 
Federation ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> another organization supported mainly by amateurs that had to 
play to its audience ...
<FIGCHAPTERS> and in doing so found financial wellbeing and salvation.
<[Gary] GARY-S> what about Glastnost ? :-) ga jd
<OLORIN> is here.
<[John] JDHALL> As I have said before on 1) and 2) and even 3)...
<[John] JDHALL> Yes, Yes, and Yes, but How, How, How and who...
<FIGCHAPTERS> The membership might figure out who and how if they got to elect 
a new board.
<[John] JDHALL> Some numbers,  as of last month our membership was 2020, and 
our disk...
<[John] JDHALL> sales are important, just as the figForth listings...
<[John] JDHALL> were important in the early days.  ga
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> yes, jack, elections have been a "problem"...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> but not one we are not aware of...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> this last year was a year of transition...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> in which we have tried some new things...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and dropped others that we costing more than they were 
worth...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> now, we have a need to continue the small...
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> steps we have started, and that will happen soon..
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> for now, we are holding our own...
<[Gary] GARY-S> Bob Berkey - you have the honor of the last question
<[[Robert]] R.BERKEY> 1) The USCF had ten times the membership of FIG and 
already had an
<[[Robert]] R.BERKEY> election mechanism in place,
<[[Robert]] R.BERKEY> when the guard changed.
<[[Robert]] R.BERKEY> 2) I heard in 1986 that there would be elections in NOV.
<[[Robert]] R.BERKEY> But that was the last I heard of them.
<[Gary] GARY-S> I had frankly hoped for more answers than questions but maybe 
this is....
<[Gary] GARY-S> what it will take to stimulate converstion and input from the 
membership..
<[Gary] GARY-S> closing comments, Jahn
<FIGCHAPTERS> There were supposed to be, Bob, they're just waiting to announce 
them in JFAR when it cathces up to 1986 :-)
<[John] JDHALL> It doesn't take a Director to get something done.  ..
<[John] JDHALL> The directors job is to guide, however,  many people who have...
<[John] JDHALL> had ideas and implemented the have then...
<[John] JDHALL> become members of the board.  ..
<[John] JDHALL> I don't want to leave any of you with the impression that..
<[John] JDHALL> I think that FIG is in anykind of a collapsing state....
<[John] JDHALL> It will continue, and all of you are proof that the interest...
<[John] JDHALL> is still high.  When there are no questions left,..
<[John] JDHALL> then I will know that it is time to close shop.   ..
<[John] JDHALL> Thanks for listening to my ideas of where we are.  ga
<FIGCHAPTERS> But if the directors insulate themselves from accountability, 
from election, who guides *them*? This is the problem Eastern Europe is now
coming to grips with.
<[Gary] GARY-S> last shot dennis
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> one final comment and yes Jack, we will do elections again
rsn
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> THERE ARE NO ANSWERS....
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> Only a lot of hard work, and good intentions
<[Dennis] D.RUFFER> and those sure can't be taken to the bank
<[Gary] GARY-S>  John D. - on behalf of the GEnie Forth RoundTable ....
<[Gary] GARY-S>  'Thank you' very much for a informative conference. ....
<[Gary] GARY-S>  I know I feel more in touch with FIG policy !
<[Gary] GARY-S>  All may stay and chat, but this conference has officially 
ended.
<[Len] NMORGENSTERN> Thanks for an excellent conference, John.
=== End of Steno notes. ===