Article: 10802 of rec.games.frp.dnd Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!data.nas.nasa.gov!eos!aio!casivils From: casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) Subject: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: Sender: news@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (USENET News System) Organization: Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Date: 24 Mar 93 22:52:10 GMT Lines: 18 I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems strange that a first and a second level spell could take the place of a third level spell that easily (although the levitate ran out faster, the unseen servant lasted much longer plus I could use the unseen servant to do other things as well). Am I missing something? Has anyone else done this? Craig *Disclaimer* Before you flame me with well if you want to blow all you spells and sit and watch the battle ** My character was a loremaster(bard)/mu. He had lots of low level spells, but the higher level spells were more precious due to the slower progression of levels. Article: 10816 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!scsing.switch.ch!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <6738@blue.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 25 Mar 93 02:38:44 GMT References: Sender: news+@pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 21 Originator: seawasp@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes: >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems strange >that a first and a second level spell could take the place of a third level Why not? 3= 1+2, hell, maybe that's EXACTLY what a Fly spell is. Makes sense to me, the mage first learns how to be weightless, then figures out a propulsive force. Adapting either a Push spell or unseen servant sounds reasonable. Modifying, adapting, and using spells in odd ways is one of the things I encourage most in my players. Your example is one that I like especially well. Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; Article: 10846 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!hp4at!mcsun!marble.uknet.ac.uk!uknet!pipex!uunet!olivea!sgigate!sgiblab!a2i!shakala!gil From: gil@shakala.com (Gilrandir) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <83Fy1B2w165w@shakala.com> Date: 25 Mar 93 06:33:54 GMT References: <6738@blue.cis.pitt.edu> Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 Lines: 23 > In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (cra > >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC onc > >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitu > >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of > >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot > >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems str > >that a first and a second level spell could take the place of a third level I don't think this would work, unless your mage weighed less than 25 pounds. It never says that Levitate make the mage weightless, it allows the mage to set his altitude and defy gravity. The unseen servant (like TK) presumeably needs to overcome the mage's inertia, and would probably fail. It does not match the way things work in our world, but in most spell descriptions for similar spells (TK, Teleport, D-Door), if the weight limit is exceeded the spell fails to work at all. Of course, if your GM allows it ... e-mail replies to ghaddad@lunacity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gilrandir - gil@shakala.com Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 Article: 10854 of rec.games.frp.dnd Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!darwin.sura.net!jabba.ess.harris.com!jabba!jcarl From: jcarl@jabba.ess.harris.com (Joe Carl Jr.) Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@jabba.ess.harris.com (Usenet News Feed Account) Nntp-Posting-Host: jabba Organization: Harris Corporation - ISD References: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 14:33:32 GMT Lines: 22 In casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes: >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems strange >that a first and a second level spell could take the place of a third level >spell that easily (although the levitate ran out faster, the unseen servant >lasted much longer plus I could use the unseen servant to do other things as >well). Am I missing something? Has anyone else done this? I'd say it works, as long as you are only flying in a 30 ft radius which is the area of effect for the unseen servant. Your movement rate would be no faster than 12, and if you ever went out of range of the unseen servant you'd just levetate, cause the unseen servant could no longer get to you. Otherwise I like it. -- Joe Carl Jr. "It ain't what a man don't know that makes him a jcarl@jabba.ess.harris.com fool, but what he does know that ain't so." -- Josh Billings Article: 10857 of rec.games.frp.dnd Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at!alex From: alex@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Forst) Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <1993Mar25.151658.23697@email.tuwien.ac.at> Sender: news@email.tuwien.ac.at Nntp-Posting-Host: mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien References: <6738@blue.cis.pitt.edu> <83Fy1B2w165w@shakala.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 15:16:58 GMT Lines: 40 In article <83Fy1B2w165w@shakala.com>, gil@shakala.com (Gilrandir) writes: |> > In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (cra |> > >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC onc |> > >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitu |> > >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of [...] |> I don't think this would work, unless your mage weighed less than 25 |> pounds. It never says that Levitate make the mage weightless, it allows |> the mage to set his altitude and defy gravity. The unseen servant (like |> TK) presumeably needs to overcome the mage's inertia, and would probably |> fail. It does not match the way things work in our world, but in most |> spell descriptions for similar spells (TK, Teleport, D-Door), if the |> weight limit is exceeded the spell fails to work at all. Unseen Servant can _carry_ a maximum of 20 pounds or push 40 pounds across a smooth surface. So it can use the force of roughly 10 kg times 9.81 ms^{-2} equal to (roughlier) 100 N against a given object. Levitate:"Horizontal movement is not empowered by this spell, but the recipient could push along the face of a cliff to move laterally." There you would need only the force of a few Newton (say 5-15) so movement with levitate and unseen servant is certainly possible. Interesting question: Is there any friction when you levitate? Say, when you push yourself from a wall how long do you move away from the wall? What if you levitate in strong wind? [moaning DM] ...uh, all this decisions... -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"Dad! You shot the Flanders-Zombie!" | Alexander Forst | | "He was a Zombie?" | alex@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at| | | University of Technology Vienna| | Bart & Homer Simpson | Institute of Computer Languages| +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Article: 10860 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!pitt.edu!seawasp From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <6775@blue.cis.pitt.edu> Date: 25 Mar 93 14:48:35 GMT References: Sender: news+@pitt.edu Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 17 Originator: seawasp@unixd3.cis.pitt.edu In article jcarl@jabba.ess.harris.com (Joe Carl Jr.) writes: >In casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes: >>I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once >>who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute >>for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >I'd say it works, as long as you are only flying in a 30 ft radius which >is the area of effect for the unseen servant. Your movement rate would Er, the 30 foot radius is 30 feet radius OF THE SPELLCASTER. The unseen servant will ALWAYS be within ZERO feet of the spellcaster if it's pushing! Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; Article: 10897 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!cobber!serhienk Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <1993Mar25.205227.21467@cobber.cord.edu> From: serhienk@cobber.cord.edu (David Serhienko) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 20:52:27 GMT References: Organization: Concordia College, Moorhead, MN Lines: 21 In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes: >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems strange It seems to me that if the unseen servant is capable of manipulating physical objects AND is capable of leaving Terra Firma, then there ought to be no problem with this combination. In fact, I see no problem with using a first and a second level spell to accomplish the task of a third level spell. That just shows that you are a better mage than the ones who use fly. Another way to deal with the propulsion problem... We simply get a look at where we want to go, take a run in that direction and jump.... Sure there's no way to turn or slow down, but we have taken to wearing long cloaks and during off weeks of adventuring we practice using them as air brakes and rudders. Works OK, but we only allow turns up to 45 degrees either way... Vad the slice'n'dice HalfDrow Article: 10898 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msus1.msus.edu!cobber!serhienk Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <1993Mar25.210320.22856@cobber.cord.edu> From: serhienk@cobber.cord.edu (David Serhienko) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 21:03:20 GMT References: <6738@blue.cis.pitt.edu> <83Fy1B2w165w@shakala.com> Organization: Concordia College, Moorhead, MN Lines: 28 In article <83Fy1B2w165w@shakala.com> gil@shakala.com (Gilrandir) writes: >> In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (cra >> >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC onc >> >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitu >> >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >> >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot >> >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems str > > I don't think this would work, unless your mage weighed less than 25 >pounds. It never says that Levitate make the mage weightless, it allows >the mage to set his altitude and defy gravity. The unseen servant (like >TK) presumeably needs to overcome the mage's inertia, and would probably >fail. It does not match the way things work in our world, but in most >spell descriptions for similar spells (TK, Teleport, D-Door), if the >weight limit is exceeded the spell fails to work at all. > I would disagree, the prblem being that the unseen servant can heft a mere 25 pounds is not a problem at all. In nary remembered days of railroad, the swith yards were meticulously level plains where single or pairs of men would apply force to move a boxcar. Once they got it moving (a slow but ready task) the thing would keep moving with a minimum of effort. Then the men would slow it down when it arrived where it was going. Don't try to tell me that a 200 pound objects inertia can't be overcome. All that needs doing is to overcome the forces of gravity and friction, which, in the case of a levitate spell, would be minimal. Vad Article: 10900 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!paladin.american.edu!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!olivea!uunet!pipex!bnr.co.uk!bnrgate!nott!torn!csd.unb.ca!UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA From: LRPR@UNB.CA (Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: RE: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <25MAR93.18986288.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> Date: 25 Mar 93 21:34:47 GMT References: Sender: usenet@UNB.CA Organization: The University of New Brunswick Lines: 37 In article casivils@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (craig sivils) writes: >I was just wondering what yall think of this trick, I had a mage type PC once >who had both levitate and unseen servant. I used to cast both as a substitute >for the 3rd level fly spell. The main problem with levitate is the lack of >propulsion, unseen servant provides instant propulsion (granted, not a lot >but enough to move a weightless mage). I got away with it, but it seems strange >that a first and a second level spell could take the place of a third level >spell that easily (although the levitate ran out faster, the unseen servant >lasted much longer plus I could use the unseen servant to do other things as >well). Am I missing something? Has anyone else done this? > > Craig You might note that: 1) It requires concentration to change altitude with a Levitate, and 1 round to change by 20 feet. The weight limit on the Unseen servant t and would keep it from shifting you up (please, no lawyering about "but I'm weightless... if that was the case, why the 20' restriction on levitate) 2) How fast could you move with the Unseen Servant? it could give you a s, 20 lb push, but that's about 1/10 of a typical (loaded) guy's weight; ssion the top speed should be about 1/10 of terminal velocity (forgive my crude fluid dynamics approximations) - about 12 MPH. The somewhat goofy flying movement rates of ADnD make that about 36, but I would call it 12 - slower than fly, with an 18. 3) There's also the little detail of accelerating, decelerating and changing direction. Also, could you cast spells while being pushed? I would rule not, while a fly spell actually lets you move 30' AND cast a spell in the same round. Remember there's a penalty for using missile weapons while levitated (as opposed to flying) but the unseen servant could probably steady you. 4) In high winds outdoors you could be in for some trouble, too. But so could a flyer - I just suspect you'd be more sensitive. In short, the combination is less manouverable than fly; though long er in duration (Levitate is 2 turns/lev, while fly is 1 turn + d6 turns) In a dungeon where you just want to hang above and give spell/missile support, that's probably fine; in an aerial battle with a Griffon, you'd be a sitting duck. So; kudos for an inventive use of an under-rated spell (unseen servant). Article: 10916 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!scsing.switch.ch!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jb8n+ From: "Joseph E. Beck" Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 21:24:31 -0500 Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <25MAR93.18986288.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> NNTP-Posting-Host: po5.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <25MAR93.18986288.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> LRPR@UNB.CA (Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)) writes: > 1 round to change by 20 feet. The weight limit on the Unseen servant t and > would keep it from shifting you up (please, no lawyering about "but I'm > weightless... if that was the case, why the 20' restriction on > levitate) I don't see the contradiction of being weightless, and being able to change height by 20' per round. Just because you don't way anything doesn't mean the task of magical vertical movement is easy (otherwise, why not have different rates for scrawny 80 lb mages, as opposed to huge 300 lb fully equipped fighter/mages)? > be a sitting duck. So; kudos for an inventive use of an under-rated > spell (unseen servant). Blink blink. No one I know has considered obscene servant an underrated spell. The only weakness it has is the 30' range. If I could choose any spell of 1st through 3rd level I'd pick unseen servant (from PH2 only, I don't know Tome of magic, Wiz handbook, etc) second only to read magic (without this one you can't get any more spells :-). It gets particularly cool combined with feather fall, which states that it makes the target weightless (no save, but some restrictions apply). joe Article: 10927 of rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!news.univie.ac.at!scsing.switch.ch!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!a2i!shakala!gil From: gil@shakala.com (Gilrandir) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <945Z1B1w165w@shakala.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 20:32:07 PST References: <1993Mar25.210320.22856@cobber.cord.edu> Organization: Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 Lines: 27 serhienk@cobber.cord.edu (David Serhienko) writes: > 25 pounds is not a problem at all. In nary remembered days of railroad, the > swith yards were meticulously level plains where single or pairs of men > would apply force to move a boxcar. Once they got it moving (a slow but > ready task) the thing would keep moving with a minimum of effort. Then the > men would slow it down when it arrived where it was going. Don't try to > tell me that a 200 pound objects inertia can't be overcome. All that needs > doing is to overcome the forces of gravity and friction, which, in the case > of a levitate spell, would be minimal. > > Vad > I see that a large number of people are addressing the force that the Unseen Servant can exert. If that's what you want to do more power to you. The spell description says something to the effect of "... can move X pounds or drag Y pounds ...", it does NOT say it can move 2*X pounds half as fast. I was simply pointing out that AD&D Magic seems (IMHO) to imply that if the object to be affected does not qualify IN ALL PARTICULARS, then it isn't affected. Why (or if) magic works this way is left as an exercise for the indiidual GM. e-mail replies to ghaddad@lunacity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gilrandir - gil@shakala.com Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 Article: 10960 of rec.games.frp.dnd Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd Path: email!mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at!alex From: alex@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Forst) Subject: Re: Spell Trickery, would this work? Message-ID: <1993Mar26.123913.3231@email.tuwien.ac.at> Sender: news@email.tuwien.ac.at Nntp-Posting-Host: mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien References: <1993Mar25.210320.22856@cobber.cord.edu> <945Z1B1w165w@shakala.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 12:39:13 GMT Lines: 38 In article <945Z1B1w165w@shakala.com>, gil@shakala.com (Gilrandir) writes: |> I see that a large number of people are addressing the force that the |> Unseen Servant can exert. If that's what you want to do more power to |> you. The spell description says something to the effect of "... can move |> X pounds or drag Y pounds ...", it does NOT say it can move 2*X pounds |> half as fast. I was simply pointing out that AD&D Magic seems (IMHO) to |> imply that if the object to be affected does not qualify IN ALL |> PARTICULARS, then it isn't affected. Why (or if) magic works this way is |> left as an exercise for the indiidual GM. |> |> e-mail replies to ghaddad@lunacity.com |> |> ------------------------------------------------------------------ |> Gilrandir - gil@shakala.com |> Shakala BBS (ClanZen Radio Network) Sunnyvale, CA +1-408-734-2289 I agree with Gilrandir. To make the judgement easier two friends of mine measured the force which is necessary to acomplish the following tasks. move or close door.................3,5N move small lever...................8N tilt over chair....................10N open modern drawer with wheels.....10N open drawer without wheels.........10-25N push over a standing person........35N pull/push heavy table.........more than 100N So if you say that the unseen servant can use a force of 100N the above would be possible (execpt for the heavy table). -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"Dad! You shot the Flanders-Zombie!" | Alexander Forst | | "He was a Zombie?" | alex@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at| | | University of Technology Vienna| | Bart & Homer Simpson | Institute of Computer Languages| +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+